Different Workbench Glitch

[pskought]

Whenever any of my characters use the workbench, they can construct items using their appropriate skill levels, no problems there. However, every instance of item breakdown uses my main PC's Repair skill to determine components received. And as a Jedi guardian, he's not the most adept at disassembling a radio, you know?

 

Testing: I tested seven different party members on the workbench - same breakdown results. Whenever main PC was in the party, breakdown values defaulted based on his skill (0). In any scenario where main PC was not in the party, item breakdown values worked correctly.

 

I held back three levels on main PC, took Class Skill: Repair feat, threw all skill points (9) into Repair, and checked again. All other party members now used increased item breakdown values, but still nowhere near correct character skill levels.

 

Is this another case of needing to clear the cache? Has anyone else had this same problem?

[Gromnir]

this issue has been noted many times. is some disagreement as to whether it is a bug or a balance issue. personally, Gromnir never thought it were a bug. intelligence is still a relatively unnecessary attribute and repair would continue to be a largely wasted skill if not for the linkage 'tween breakdown values and the PC's repair skill rating.

 

*shrug*

 

as you might expect, no developer has chosen to comment on this oft debated issue.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[pskought]

this issue has been noted many times.  is some disagreement as to whether it is a bug or a balance issue.  personally, Gromnir never thought it were a bug.  intelligence is still a relatively unnecessary attribute and repair would continue to be a largely wasted skill if not for the linkage 'tween breakdown values and the PC's repair skill rating.

 

Ah, curses. I didn't see it listed in the first five or six pages. See, I'd be inclined to think it was a balance issue if only the party leader had Workbench/Lab Table access. Or, and I may have simply overlooked them on my first pass, if we had the option to buy components somewhere on the cheap, I'd chalk it up to a balance issue.

 

But lacking both those criteria, it seems like a bug.

 

as you might expect, no developer has chosen to comment on this oft debated issue.

 

Figured as much, but still hoping for a nice workaround.

 

Thanks, though.

[Gromnir]

"Or, and I may have simply overlooked them on my first pass, if we had the option to buy components somewhere on the cheap, I'd chalk it up to a balance issue."

 

that would again destroy balance by making the pc's repair rating unnecessary.

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Akari]

Hm... I believe the bug is that it ever uses the other party member's skills at all, actually.

 

I remember back when the workbench stuff was going into the game, I pushed for the workbench to respect the skill level of whichever NPC was using it, but the designer in charge of workbench wanted it so that the PC's skills were all that mattered when it came to using the Workbench to make it so that points spent in the repair skill for the PC were more valuable.

 

I guess in the end you got something inbetween.

 

-Akari

[chad9023]

Once again, leave it to Akari to pull back the mysterious vale of the Developers. Thanks Akari, once again.

 

Just for sanity's sake, it's nice to know if things like that are bugs, or by design. It helps us know if the PC version is going to be "fixed."

[Gromnir]

Once again, leave it to Akari to pull back the mysterious vale of the Developers.  Thanks Akari, once again. 

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

was that a joke? we has a hard time telling with some folks.

 

akari seemed to be telling us that he not know how we got what we got, but that he wanted it one way, and the developer in charge of workbench wanted another... and we got something else entirely... so we still not know if final workbench were bug or purposeful.

 

go figure.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Akari]

Once again, leave it to Akari to pull back the mysterious vale of the Developers.  Thanks Akari, once again. 

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

was that a joke? we has a hard time telling with some folks.

 

akari seemed to be telling us that he not know how we got what we got, but that he wanted it one way, and the developer in charge of workbench wanted another... and we got something else entirely... so we still not know if final workbench were bug or purposeful.

 

go figure.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The first sentence of my post explains which part of that is probably the bug. The rest of my post was just useless exposition.

 

-Akari

 

-Edit: Or, to clarify, the way it should be is the way the designer wanted. It's his call to make. If my original post wasn't clear, I apologize.

Edited January 5, 2005 by Akari

[Mongoose]

Once again, leave it to Akari to pull back the mysterious vale of the Developers.  Thanks Akari, once again. 

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

was that a joke? we has a hard time telling with some folks.

 

akari seemed to be telling us that he not know how we got what we got, but that he wanted it one way, and the developer in charge of workbench wanted another... and we got something else entirely... so we still not know if final workbench were bug or purposeful.

 

go figure.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The first sentence of my post explains which part of that is probably the bug. The rest of my post was just useless exposition.

 

-Akari

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So the way it was intended to work was you only used the PC's skills at creation as well? Not that it makes a big difference; because you can't get much in the way of components without a good breakdown rate from high Repair, you can't build anything at a high level anyway due to not having enough parts around, regardless of whose character's skills the workbench is using.

 

If the workbench is really intended to reflect only the PC's skills, however, then its item creation is bugged, as well as the item creation and breakdown for the lab station, which depends on the using character's skills and not the PC's. (Which would royally screw my current character over, as Repair and Treat Injury are the only two skills he doesn't have.) <_<

[Gromnir]

Once again, leave it to Akari to pull back the mysterious vale of the Developers.  Thanks Akari, once again. 

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

was that a joke? we has a hard time telling with some folks.

 

akari seemed to be telling us that he not know how we got what we got, but that he wanted it one way, and the developer in charge of workbench wanted another... and we got something else entirely... so we still not know if final workbench were bug or purposeful.

 

go figure.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The first sentence of my post explains which part of that is probably the bug. The rest of my post was just useless exposition.

 

-Akari

 

-Edit: Or, to clarify, the way it should be is the way the designer wanted. It's his call to make. If my original post wasn't clear, I apologize.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

"Hm... I believe the bug is that it ever uses the other party member's skills at all, actually."

 

not sound real certain, does it? add the rest of post and it seems to be explaining how we mighta' arrived at what we got.

 

*shrug*

 

nevertheless, if the workbench IS bugged that does raise a question, namely: how will workbench work in PC version?

 

consular/watchman with good int is looking better and better for pc version. get us our repair skill early and then other skills late.

 

...

 

no offense, but we thinks the workbench designer had the right idea... makes skills and int much more valuable if workbench actually worked the way it were s'posed to.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[jaguars4ever]

Hm... I believe the bug is that it ever uses the other party member's skills at all, actually. 

 

I remember back when the workbench stuff was going into the game, I pushed for the workbench to respect the skill level of whichever NPC was using it, but the designer in charge of workbench wanted it so that the PC's skills were all that mattered when it came to using the Workbench to make it so that points spent in the repair skill for the PC were more valuable.

 

I guess in the end you got something inbetween. 

 

-Akari

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I respect you Akari, but it doens't really sound like you know what you're talking about.

 

The fact of the matter is that breaking down components utilizes the PC's skill on the WORKBENCH, but breaking down chemicals utilizes the NPC's skill on the LABSTATION.

 

As an employee of Obsidian, I hardly expect an admission of responsibiliy, but your very own statement is indicative that either one or the other is in fact bugged.

 

More importantly, what is going to be done to rectify this 'defect' in the PC version?

[Jitawa]

I'd say the game would be more balance (read: more difficult) if item creation was only checking the PC. As it stands, you have several characters that, barring saving up all your skill points and never using them, will get ridiculously high skill levels in pretty much everything. It was never much of a reward to get an armor upgrade or such in game, since the game made it so easy to make any of that stuff...

 

Just throw Bao-Dur in front of the bench... bam... you have any upgrade you want.

 

The balance would've been better with just PC skill checks. However, I think the component transfer rate could also be raised somewhat in that case. My first game, with repair at 0 not being a class skill... even at the end of the game I could only get a single component for breaking down anything. I still got enough components to have Bao-Dur make everything I needed... but getting the same amount of components from everything was a bit silly.

[Akari]

I respect you Akari, but it doens't really sound like you know what you're talking about.     

 

Which is precisely why I don't really comment on much of any of this stuff. I'm not working on KotOR2 anymore, nor do I have the time to go back and debug the code of a project I'm not on full time.

 

The fact of the matter is that breaking down components utilizes the PC's skill on the WORKBENCH, but breaking down chemicals utilizes the NPC's skill on the LABSTATION.

 

As an employee of Obsidian, I hardly expect an admission of responsibiliy, but your very own statement is indicative that either one or the other is in fact bugged. 

I already explained which way is bugged. The fact that the workbench or labstation ever respects the NPC's skill levels instead of the PC's is the bug. All the workbench/labstation interfaces are only supposed to work based off the Exile's skills. The mere fact that it isn't consistent between the two types of stations already makes it perfectly clear that it's bugged.

 

I'm not sure how this has been missed after I've already answered this exact thing twice in this thread, but that's what it is. I stated what I believed the bug to be in the first line of my first response. I qualified that with the word 'believe' because I'm just going off of memory without consulting any design docs, asking a designer, or looking in the code.

 

-Akari

[NeverwinterKnight]

I already explained which way is bugged. The fact that the workbench or labstation ever respects the NPC's skill levels instead of the PC's is the bug. All the workbench/labstation interfaces are only supposed to work based off the Exile's skills.  The mere fact that it isn't consistent between the two types of stations already makes it perfectly clear that it's bugged.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

weird. i actually like the "bugged" version. it made having certain party members around useful to use their skills to create/upgrade items. i think id rather both workbenches/labstations be bugged than work how they were intended.

[Gromnir]

is kinda a munchkin litmus test, no?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

once again...

 

"nevertheless, if the workbench IS bugged that does raise a question, namely: how will workbench work in PC version?"

 

there were a couple things in kotor that were left broken in the pc version. will the workbench be one such thing in the kotor2 pc version?

 

thanks for the reply.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[NeverwinterKnight]

is kinda a munchkin litmus test, no?

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

not really. it had more to do with wanting to use the characters in my party more often that, otherwise, would have just sat on the ebon hawk. i rarely ever used bao-dur or t3 off the ebon hawk, but because their skill came in handy, i actually brought them along on a couple of missions.

[Gromnir]

but you didn't use 'em for missions per se... you just used 'em to make ph47 1007?

 

you couldn't use bao-dur's security or demolitions skills on missions? that weren't 'nuff to warrant bringing 'em? were there any real missions where you needed to use a workbench in the middle of a mission to upgrade an item, or were that simply something you did during the more quiet and reflective moments... following the battles and the clearing of levels?

 

by having joinable npcs use workbench, there were far less need for you to be frugal with your own skill choices... by end of game you could make any item you wished to, no? there were no hard choices being made.

 

is bad balance... is bad design... is just our opinion.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Mongoose]

is kinda a munchkin litmus test, no?

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

not really. it had more to do with wanting to use the characters in my party more often that, otherwise, would have just sat on the ebon hawk. i rarely ever used bao-dur or t3 off the ebon hawk, but because their skill came in handy, i actually brought them along on a couple of missions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree. This is an issue of PC skill use versus party use. If you "fix" the workbench and lab station to use only the PC's skills, you make the PC's skill points more valuable and the Sentinel more powerful. However, this also makes some party members who have skills as one of their strengths, like Bao Dur, less useful. The more you focus on the PC's skills, the more party members with good skills get marginalized. It's a Me vs. We issue, PC class differentiation vs. party member usefulness.

[NeverwinterKnight]

i used them for missions, but my point was that it was an added area of the game where certain party members were actually useful and worth bringing along. to be honest, i rarely upgraded anything on the workbench. the only thing i did was use it to break down items i never used to create extra medpacs.

 

keep in mind im not actually against it working how it was intended and i wouldnt start crying and moaning if obsidian fixed it for the pc version. but im just saying that my reasons for liking how the "bugged" version was working had more to do with party member useage and less to do with powergaming.

[NeverwinterKnight]

I'm not working on KotOR2 anymore, nor do I have the time to go back and debug the code of a project I'm not on full time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

this is a bit distressing. it begs the question of who is still working on kotor2's pc version?

[Gromnir]

is kinda a munchkin litmus test, no?

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

not really. it had more to do with wanting to use the characters in my party more often that, otherwise, would have just sat on the ebon hawk. i rarely ever used bao-dur or t3 off the ebon hawk, but because their skill came in handy, i actually brought them along on a couple of missions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree. This is an issue of PC skill use versus party use. If you "fix" the workbench and lab station to use only the PC's skills, you make the PC's skill points more valuable and the Sentinel more powerful. However, this also makes some party members who have skills as one of their strengths, like Bao Dur, less useful. The more you focus on the PC's skills, the more party members with good skills get marginalized. It's a Me vs. We issue, PC class differentiation vs. party member usefulness.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

anybody else feels like they is in the twilight zone? the board has gotten wacky the last few days.

 

the obsidian developers noted numerous times during kotor development that they were attempting to make pc skills more useful... 'cause the party dynamic and limited number of available skills in kotor meant that the only skill that were really worth taking in kotor were persuade. in kotor you could tank intelligence and spend you single skill point on persuade and never miss a single thing in the game (save for upgrading hk-47 and using one computer console.)

 

...

 

this is just getting weird. is like the last year never happened.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[NeverwinterKnight]

the obsidian developers noted numerous times during kotor development that they were attempting to make pc skills more useful... 'cause the party dynamic and limited number of available skills in kotor meant that the only skill that were really worth taking in kotor were persuade.  in kotor you could tank intelligence and spend you single skill point on persuade and never miss a single thing in the game (save for upgrading hk-47 and using one computer console.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

problem is, they also speculated (dont know if they ever really confirmed or denied it) that they were thinking of making it so that you could use your npc party members' skills for the workbench and labstation for much of the same reason. to make better use out of those party members with tech skills.

 

i guess we ended up, by design or by accident, with some sort of hybrid system. :D