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My take after a few days

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I played the game for a few days to finish it and I have thought about the story a lot, much like most of you who are a little confused. I think a lot of the answers to K2's plot and the next possible game are found in the first game as well. I might be wrong in how I remember some of this info but it's just my theory so correct me if I'm wrong. Please don't flame me it's just a theory! :cool:


Don't read if you havn't played all the way through!!!





I read a post in one of the other threads in which someone stated that they learned more about the sith characters of K2 through the "load screen text" rather than the actual gameplay. Keeping that in mind, one of the load texts for the first game was something along the lines of, "Today's sith are not a race, but followers of an ideal. True Sith have been extinct for sometime. "


Now are we ever told who the "builders" are in the first game? When Kotor first came out I figured that the advanced Sith Race were the builders of the Star Forge, and it was left from their "dead" or "believed to be dead" empire. If you think about it, the Star Forge doesn't have the massive capabilities to destroy planets like the Death Star(s), but it's ability to produce ships real quickly seems more advanced than what is even shown to us at the time of the Galactic Empire, some 4000 years later. Enter the Unknown World, which is conviently located right next to the hidden Star Forge's location!


The Key here is that the Ratakan are on this planet and they no longer have the ability to use the force for some reason! Also remember we learn that Revan visited this planet twice, while as a "Sith Lord" and later after the JC wiped his memory. This means that during or around the time of the Mandalorian War as well as during the Battle with Malak he first learns and then relearns that the Jedi and Sith can both lose the ability to use the force for good. Is this why he decided to leave the galaxy after K1? Did he see how blind the Jedi council was to everything that could happen and that there was a greater, more advanced, threat out there? Malak was obsessed with destroying the republic while Revan was able to see the larger picture as someone mentioned in a different thread. I think Kreia pretty much told us this about Revan in K2.


Now go into the movie section of K2 after you finish the game. I played lightside and it says I completed 53 of 62 movies. I guess that means the darkside has the remaining movies. If you have finished the game watch "Kreia's Fall". This is the flashback where she tells you about the some of the dark places of the universe. She was on Malachor 5, and explains that even she would not walk alone in some of these places, meaning the other two Sith Lords were with her. Then as Darth Nihilius and Darth Sion come on the screen she explains that there were in fact disagreements between them and "her will was not law." She pretty much makes it clear that both Sion and Nihilius want power, while we know she wants to keep you alive for some reason. The Sith, not to happy about this idea of saving former, or current Jedi, literally rip Kreia apart, but won't kill her! They strip her power and exile her! That doesn't sound very Sith like to me, why not just kill her now?


They don't kill her because they know that Kreia will lead them to the last exile Jedi. This is where K2 begins. Sion's job is to follow Kreia, who did in fact get the Ebon Hawk from Revan, or through some other means, and kill the exile. Nihlius knows that Sion could screw it up, because he is Kreia's former apprentice, so he sends his apprentice, Visas, just in case. I don't believe Nilhlius is worried about either the exile or Kreia anyway, as he has his sight on the bigger picture, force sensitive worlds. Kreia is said to be dead at the start of the game, but she wakes up and then awakens you, probably due to the Force Bond between two exiles, both stripped of their force powers. (According to Kreia's flashback)


So what is Kreia's motive is the question we have to ask ourself. Kreia is believed to be dead by the Jedi Council. The three masters are in shock to see her on Dantooine, claiming she died during the M. Wars. Atris is shocked to hear of the "old women" who was with you that she didn't see. I think Kreia knows, from Revan, about the Ratakan loosing the force. Remember that killing all the Jedi and Sith will not stop other Force sensitives from occurring. She had to figure out how an entire society lost communication with the force. She plans to figure this out through the exile, who is known throughout the game as a "Wound in the Force". The Jedi Masters are wrong, not once, but twice in their judgement of the exile. As Kreia states, they were so afraid of what you might become that they cast you out, banished you instead of learning from you. They also accuse you of ignorance after the war, each of which Kreia says is basically irony because they are talking about themselves.


You were deafened - Vrook

You could hear - Kreia


You were broken - Kavar

You were whole - Kreia


You were blinded - Zez

And at last, you saw - Kreia


The Mandalorian Wars and the Malak War was about Conversion. The exile did something that even Revan couldn't do, give up the Force and still live without it. Kreia doesn't like the idea that the Force govern's people's actions, hence her negative actions regarding light or dark choices. Sion meets her three times in the game and will not kill her because the exile will always come to look for her. This is probably why she doesn't seem to fear him and wants the exile to run from him on Korriban. She also knows that the only way to defeat Nihlius is if he faces the smaller "wound in the force", which he can't see coming. I read that if you follow the darkside path Nihilius only orgin is referred to by Kreia as, "He is a thing of the past, and like this false Jedi, must be laid to rest." As anyone who has finished the game knows, Nihlilius speaks unknown language, is said to have a power to consume the force greater than anyone, including Palpatine, and dissapears into red smoke when you defeat him. After reading through it all I now think Darth N is some kind of physical manifestation of the darkside energy of Malachor 5. This would also explain how the Ships from the M. War are still being held together.


Kreia uses you to defeat the Jedi Masters, she uses you to defeat the Sith Lords, she uses you to regain her own powers, wanted or not, she finally uses you to destroy the darkness that is Malachor 5. She turns your allies against each other and also gets their own enemies to stop them from helping you. She won't kill Atris though, leaving that choice to you, because she states to Atris they are both already dead.


Finally, Kreia gives the exile the choice to follow Revan or not now that he/she understands the true power of the force and the dangers that may be out there, another Sith Empire which Revan feared that feeds on the force in a similar fashion. What really happened to your NPCs in those final moments will have to be answered in Kotor 3. I have a feeling that they wrapped up certain storylines for some characters the way they did because they won't be returning for the next one, to make room for some new NPCs. (Mira, Bao-Dur, The two Probe Droids .... )







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That all is rather fascinating and makes a lot of sense, actually . . . but some of it doesn't fit if you're DS n_n


And also, having a third game as an excuse for leaving the ending of the second such a gaping maw is no excuse. It should have been wrapped up better, new game or no.


But still . . . interesting . . .

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Beat the game (LS), figured might as well share a few opinions.


It's Rambling Time!


In many ways, I cannot but sympathsize with the Last Boss's cause. After all, this game is more or less a criticism of George Luca's rather shallow Mythology. The more I think about it, the more I would have convinced myself to destroy the Force if given the chance/option.


First of all, Kriea's education has always been about tough love. You don't help the beggar, not because you are a jackass, but because it will not make him an self-sufficient person by doing so. In another word, you are helping him (despite the beggar's objections). Sometimes, the instinct to help others will only harm them in the end -- such is in the case of the Mandalorian Wars. How could one (The Republic, in this case) be self-sufficent and strong if he always relies on someone or something else? In many ways, Kriea's philosophy reminds of Rousseau's adulation for the strength and perfectibility of Natural Man (civilized man, when stripped of his artificial strengths, is by far weaker than natural man). Likewise, the Force is a crutch for the people. Obviously, some Star Wars civilization have managed to flourish (strengthwise and morally) without having to rely on the force. And let us look at the Rakata on the other hand, their reliance on the force have lead their civilizaiton into utter destruction.


Lucas has created the Force as a self-contradicting being (Good must coexist with Evil). I understand that this view a popular cultural thing, but it is a ridiculous idea* . I am pretty certain that the Ying-Yang philosophy (which is obviously the reference) does not make the analogy of Good and Evil. WHY should Good and Evil balance out in the end? WHY shouldn't Good triumph over Evil? A moral person, in the end, will find the Force to be an atrocity. The Force is a tyrant (for it have control over Fate) which imposes its amoral balance upon mortals.


I could ramble even further, but I'll just outline the main arguments.


Why one should destroy the Force:


For one's own advantage, or good:

1) Becuase reliance of the Force will only lead to weakness (like the Rakata)

For one's own love for freedom:

2) The Force is a tyrant, it leaves mortals no room for free will.

For one's own moral world:

3) The Force's philosophy is amoral. With its power over fate, the struggle between good and evil is but a perpetual cycle. Neither side is more "justified" than the other. I, for one, would not like to live in a world where Evil deserves an equal merit of existence as Good would.



So, in under this light, I can not but find Kriea's cause to be (even morally?) justified. Of course, we have to presuppose that destroying the force will not have some ridiculously harmful reprecussions such as killing everything in the universe....






*It seems to me that the main philosophical argument for why Good cannto exist without Evil is faulty. The main argument, as i understood it, is the syllogism that the definition of a state is inherent within its opposite. That is, we assume that darkness is the absence of light. However, the syllogism is faulty in the sense that we presuppose our means of understanding the subject is inherently connected to the nature of the subject. In much easier terms to understand: We may have to come to understand and define darkness/falsehood/Evil through the absence of light/truth/Good, it does not neccessitate that the Existence of one in intangent to the other! Then again, that's just my two cents (from my obviously flawed intellect).

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I think that Kreia's attitude was summed up quite early on, to paraphrase: the true battle exists within the hearts of every self-aware being.


She wanted the choices, whether creative (light side) or destructive (dark side), to be truly of the being.. and NOT part of some grand scheme of the Force.


To branch off into the idea that the Force is pretty awful in some ways:


I saw this right off after seeing Episode I.. the 'balance' of the Force is not the wholesome thing the Jedi likely assume it to be.. in essence.. by Episode IV's time.. the Force *has* become balanced with Vader's help, by having four main powers in the galaxy: Vader, Obi-Wan, the Emperor, and Luke. Two light, two dark.. but having one light be eliminated by New Hope's end means that one of the dark side will have to be gone.


Inbetween Episode I to IV, hundreds, if not thousands, of Jedi Knights were killed to bring this balance. Was the Force the reason? Or was it choice? Or both?


In essence, Kreia was railing against Fate. The mistress of Betrayals and Manipulation could not have even the Force manipulating her, it being too unbearable. Yet ironically enough, the Force probably wanted her to help the Exile all along.

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So, in under this light, I can not but find Kriea's cause to be (even morally?) justified. Of course, we have to presuppose that destroying the force will not have some ridiculously harmful reprecussions such as killing everything in the universe....


Oh no, not at all. Just almost everything in the universe.

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Inbetween Episode I to IV, hundreds, if not thousands, of Jedi Knights were killed to bring this balance.  Was the Force the reason?  Or was it choice?  Or both?


If you buy the whole Anakin as child of the force thing. His destiny was to bring balance to the force. Something that would only be accomplised by either recruiting more Sith , or killing off all but two of the Jedi (which in the movie is what happens).


Either way it went it was still going to lead to a massive conflict in which billions of non force users were going to die.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.


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The Builders are the Rakata... They were wiped out (amonst other things) by a disease that COULD have been created by a Slave species, like the Sith. The Sith Species were masters of alchemy.


Kreias objective, among other things, was to kill/ disable all that feel the Force (aka pretty much every LIVING thing).

Geekified Star Wars Geek


Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force


"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)


"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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my sense of the jedi being killed in the films is because they have become to much part of the government and are being corrupted and becoming elitist they hed to be taken down a peg and the force made that happen then luke comes and builds them up better than before. In kotor the jedi are also destroyed cause of there inability to act because they wanna stay clean and not get involved all we ever see is history repeating itself ie. jedi get destroyed, jedi rebuild, jedi masters get to high and mighty, jedi get destroyed rinse and repeat

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