Ex-CIA officer alleges agency retaliated...

[EnderAndrew]

All of those quotes say that we did not find STOCKPILES of WMD.

 

I never said we found stockpiles.

 

You said there were no WMD. You said we found no WMD.

 

Funny how some careful edits can tell a vastly different story. You're a big fan of distorting facts.

[mkreku]

All of those quotes say that we did not find STOCKPILES of WMD.

 

I never said we found stockpiles.

 

You said there were no WMD.  You said we found no WMD.

 

Funny how some careful edits can tell a vastly different story.  You're a big fan of distorting facts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Uhm.. Exactly what did you find then..? If you found ONE weapon of mass destruction, is that enough to start a war? Ridiculous, the lengths you go to just to avoid having to admit you're wrong.

 

Hans Blix said there were no WMD's in Iraq. The american weapons inspector said there were none. What else do you want? You're basically saying that you're right because you didn't use the word "stockpile". Great argument.

 

"No Iraq WMDs Made After '91" is also a quote from one of my sources. They did not produce any new WMD's, nor did they have the capacity or facilities to do so. Perhaps they found some insignificant left overs from before 91, who knows and who cares, that was never the point. Bush claimed Saddam had enough WMD's to threaten world peace. He was wrong about the WMD's and it's still an outright lie to claim Saddam could threaten world peace.

 

"Saddam Hussein still has chemical and biological weapons and is increasing his capabilities to make more."

- President Bush, in October 2002 speech

 

Funny how some careful "stick my head up my behind so deep I can't see the truth" can tell a vastly different story.

 

You know, it's easy to find quotes from what you said back then, although I'm way too lazy right now. Guess I'll have to dig them up though since you're so childishly stubborn about this.

[EnderAndrew]

Actually the sarin missles we found may have been produced after '91. But the weapons France and Russia sold were sold after '91.

 

Yet you maintain the war was for one reason, and one reason alone, and that reason was a lie created by Bush.

 

That logic boggles the mind.

 

There are several reasons for the war. The preservation of life perhaps being the biggest one. The liberation of 25 million people is always nice. And if this is some lie that Bush just recently invented, why did the UN unanimously decy Iraq for pursuing weapons for the past 12 years? Why unanimously pass over 75 resolutions? Why did intel agencies from countless countries announce Saddam pursed weapons and possess weapons?

 

Last time I checked, Saddam publicly defended terrorism and murder.

 

You defend Saddam and call Bush a horrible person for going after him.

 

It's nice to know where you stand. I've gone back and quoted you all day before. If you'd like, I can do it again, except you're really not worth my time.

 

You also once suggested the world would have been better off if the US never interfered in anyone's business.

 

I'm sure WWI and WWII would have been much better off is the US never assited. I'm sure all the countries that rely on US support to buy food and medicine would be much better off is the US never interferred.

 

You have pubicly, repeatedly decried not only the American administration, but the American people. You've discussed how stupid Americans are, how greedy they are, and how Americans started most of the wars of the 20th century.

 

Well, you've still yet to mention a single war the United States started in the 20th century. You've showed your hands to be a biased racist. You've show how you have strong nationalistic ties, explaining how your country is superior.

 

I've tried to be objective, citing both America's strengths and faults.

 

If as you've said:

Funny how some careful "stick my head up my behind so deep I can't see the truth" can tell a vastly different story.

I can't see the truth because my head is my ass, then why do I quote facts, while you editorialize and leave out crucial details? Why tell so many half-truths?

 

I can deal with trolls. I can deal with people who disagree with me. But you have an agenda of hate, and I'm not going to have anything to do with you.

 

I have ZERO respect for anything you have to say.

 

ZERO.

 

I called you out countless times to answer direct questions, and you couldn't. As far as I'm concerned, I have nothing to say to you.

[mkreku]

I can't see the truth because my head is my ass, then why do I quote facts, while you editorialize and leave out crucial details?  Why tell so many half-truths?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're back-pedaling like a madman with statements like "They didn't find stockpiles of WMD's? Well, I only said they didn't have WMD's. Never used the word stockpiles! No, siree!". You haven't quoted a single fact in this thread, yet you claim to quote facts while I "editorialize". Check the links. They are there in their original form. I gave sources, unlike you.

 

Now, since you accuse me of defending Saddam.. Please show me at least one post of mine where I defend Saddam. I am 100% sure that has never happened and I would appreciate it if you kept to facts instead of lying when discussing with me.

 

You also once suggested the world would have been better off if the US never interfered in anyone's business.

 

You have pubicly, repeatedly decried not only the American administration, but the American people. You've discussed how stupid Americans are, how greedy they are, and how Americans started most of the wars of the 20th century.

 

Well, you've still yet to mention a single war the United States started in the 20th century. You've showed your hands to be a biased racist. You've show how you have strong nationalistic ties, explaining how your country is superior.

Strong claims. Now please back them up with some facts. I've never said any of the things you claim above. The only thing I've done from the list above is quote Michael Moore from Bowling For Columbine about the wars in the 20'th century. Are you perhaps lying about this? We'll see.

[Rosbjerg]

a word of advice Mkreku (from personal experiance) offending someone personally is not a good way to gain support in arguments .. while you may disagree and think someone is stupid for not seeing the thruth! others will think you are a jerk, and will probably side with the opposition in sympathy ..

so keep a civil tone in any argument, and present facts in the very good way you do .. and you will win the argument!

[mkreku]

a word of advice Mkreku (from personal experiance) offending someone personally is not a good way to gain support in arguments .. while you may disagree and think someone is stupid for not seeing the thruth! others will think you are a jerk, and will probably side with the opposition in sympathy ..

so keep a civil tone in any argument, and present facts in the very good way you do .. and you will win the argument!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the advice, fellow scandinavian (well, almost!), but I'm not really affected by the popular opinion on an internet board. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and if people on this board thinks I'm a jerk, then so be it. Also, I'm not very interested in "winning" an argument (if that's even possible) nor am I searching for sympathy. I'm just trying to set the facts straight, even though I understand the futility in doing so among the worst Bush fanboi's of this board.

[EnderAndrew]

I publicy state my problems with Bush, and I didn't vote for him.

 

Yet for months you've called me a fanboi of Bush.

 

Yet, you're dedicated to the truth, all right. You want facts?

 

Here are facts.

 

I stated very clearly that we did not find stockpiles, but we did find evidence that larger staches of weapons were there, while we found small stashes of weapons. Where did I lie? Where did I mislead? Where did I leave out facts?

 

You leave out facts, and seek to mislead. You use Michael Moore quotes, when he has been proven to be a liar. People forget that I'm a Democrat by beliefs, and no major Democrat stands behind Moore because of his lies and tactics.

 

But those weapons clearly exist. The fact that they are missing is actually more scary to me. Do you care that innocent people may be killed with these weapons? Do you care that Saddam used WMD on his own people? No. Do you care that Saddam financially funded terrorists? No.

 

Once again, the facts and real issues don't matter to you.

 

You're hatred for Bush, and Americans has been demonstrated many times before. You will take any excuse to bash the war, which last time I checked, had over 30 different countries supporting.

 

I've quoted you specifically calling Americans stupid. I've quoted you calling Americans rednecks. I got a bunch of PMs from people supporting me, stating they believed you to be a racist. I can dig up all your old posts, lord knows I've done it before. But it doesn't change your behavior in the least, so why bother?

 

I've asked you tons of direct questions, and you never answered any of them. I've never seen you back down from a single lie you've made, so I doubt you ever will.

 

Adults admit from time to time that they're wrong.

 

BTW, here is one such PM I received the last time we argued:

 

got some info about iraq that could be used aginst mkreku american hater.

 

it has very indepth info on iraq's WMD that are missing.

 

heres the link:

 

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/index.html

 

its a good site for this type of thing. also here is one for the bush secrecy. good real proof of why he has so many secrets.

 

heres that link:

 

http://www.fas.org/sgp/bush/index.html

 

hope this helps. i know its alot of info but its a really good resource.

.

[mkreku]

But those weapons clearly exist.  The fact that they are missing is actually more scary to me.  Do you care that innocent people may be killed with these weapons?  Do you care that Saddam used WMD on his own people?  No.  Do you care that Saddam financially funded terrorists?  No.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

According to this logic, I could say you hate homosexual people. Why? Because you've never mentioned your support for them.

 

You know nothing about what I think about Saddam, because that has never been the point of debate. Unless you can find posts where I do support him? I think not.

 

The reports I've linked to clearly indicates there are no weapons or any facilities to create such weapons. No matter how many times you say they are there. But the discussion is pointless, because it's like trying to prove Santa Claus doesn't exist. It's impossible to prove beyond doubt that something doesn't exist, and you've clearly fallen for the war propaganda, so no matter how many people say they haven't found any weapons, you simply will not believe them.

 

Ps. A link to where you found that Saddam financially supported "terrorists"? My links show that no ties were found between Al Qaida and Saddam, but maybe you have some other info?

[Rosbjerg]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion

- mkreku

 

maybe you should listen to your own words ..

[Langky]

Just to add my view on Iraq

 

I grew up in a third world country ruled by a dictator so I like to think I can have some understanding of what life as a Iraquee must be like and even then my comprehension is but a pin prick compared to the suffering they are going through.

 

Saddam is a bastard no question about it, and no one can understand how evil a person like he is, he starved his own people and persecuted them and ran that country into the ground. You do not solve a problem like that by moving in with an army because like most countries there are people who are sensible and people who are typically evil and there are people who are in between, ultimately your going to set off a chain reaction which will end up in a civil war which will probably end with yet another Dictator stuck up on the the throne andt hat is what will essentially happen.

 

As for the argument about weapons of mass destruction, America has thousands of weapons of mass destruction and that does not justify it. You may argue that Saddam is an immoral person who might try to attack another country. Most classic Dictators like Saddam only care about staying in power, they live in gold palaces with everything they could ever want the last thing they want to do is spend all that money on a costly war, especially as Iraq's not exactly got the resources to start an effective war now does it. Saddam is not goign to bomb America for the sake of bombing America, he has nothing to gain, and everything to lose. Personally George Bush who comes across as idiot vigilate is far more likely to attack another country for "the good of all" than Saddam who cares only about staying power.

 

George is nothing special I agree with Ender on that. Hes just Dupe getting used by his party to get all those wonderful things like the patriot act passed, the pipeline that brings rich oil from the caspian sea through afganistan, and like normal a war which is making the arms company very rich, and the Republican party almost definately has shares in both those fields and ties to those areas. Eventually it will come crashing down on his big empty head, he will take the fall, and his party will take the money.

 

To be quite frank the rest of the world is very frightened of America , if America sneezes the rest of world catchs a cold so to say. We are all greatly affected by what America either is or does, and everyone abroad is at least a little worried as to whether America is going ot crumble or not, because America effectively rules he world, its companies control a large portion of the world economy, its missles can destroy every man and woman on the earth.

 

Most non american people (at least in Britain ) dont realy like you guys but I think thats more to do with feeling rather helpless because you guys pretty much do rule the world. I dont have a problem with Americans I think their patriotism is something to admired (if it can be blind at times ). I personally hope you get these money grubbing buffoons out of the white house soon, not just because I dont like to see people suffer but also as growing in a third world country where me and my family suffered quite a lot, we saw America as this sort of paradise, a country to sort of look up to. Although we were soon awaking by the fast realisation of the reality of america it would be nice if there was at least some remanants of that dream there.

 

Ohh yah one last thing Hades I have one good quote I think you should remember .

 

"Their are innocents, we are all responsible for the way our world is today, our actions and inactions make the world what it is today"

[~Di]

Langsky, your post is a sobering eye-opener, and shows more real wisom than I've seen in far too long. Don't let the paranoid hatred of all things American dim your dream, though. There are lots of countries in the world that offer freedom, democracy, and the opportunity to make whatever you want out of your life. America is still one of those countries, despite currently having a Whitehouse resident that is... certainly not my personal favorite.

 

I'm glad you have escaped your previous environment, and wish you good fortune in the future.

[Errantry]

. . . The most interesting thing I thought about the war in Iraq was that we are trying to impose a democracy upon them, when the US is not -technically- a full democracy itself. It is a republic. Also, the United States constantly complains about its military losses in Iraq, when tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians have been killed in crossfire.

By the way, I agree with ~Di, Langsky; your post was extraordinarily insightful. And thanks for not judging a people based on its rulers. We have enough of that as it is.

[mkreku]

Ahem.. I'd better get my skinny, white, relatively rich, constantly safe, overly whiny behind out of this thread..

 

Good post, Langky.

[Kaftan Barlast]

When we congratulate posts like Langky's with being especially insightful and new, then we have a problem. Because (I agree with the post, this is not an attack on it or Langky) the message is something we all should have be familiar with in the first place

[Grandpa]

How can you be familiar with something you've never experienced? Empathize with, maybe, but familiarity requires some first-hand experience.

 

Not that I don't understand what Langky is saying about his experiences, I do. But, each person has a unique perspective, no matter how many people are crowded around him. I just can't sympathize with his point of view because I haven't lived the life. Nor has mrkreku, errantry or ~Di. I can only correlate and compare it to mine. Based on what he wrote, he has led a rougher life than me, but I can't say I know what he is talking about. Being American, I can't assume I know how everyone feels about Americans. Nor should I assume everyone feels the same way. Nor should those people make assumptions that we are all a, b or c. In fact, I find some of his opinions typical of some of those who want nothing but to find fault with America and Americans, and other statements which come clear out of the conspiracy papers.

 

As for living under a totalitarian regime, I have no experience, so I can't comment, neither he should really make such strong assumptions about an environ he has no experience with. If I were to say that he and his countrymen created their own monster by allowing this and that to happen, I would be lambasted and flamed to no end, but that is exactly what he, and others of you on this board do when you make statements about where I live and where I was raised. Assumptions based on biased news reports and interaction with faceless souls on an internet message board. And when the American speaks up to defend himself he is ridiculed for not knowing about himself? Please. Why is it that Americans are not able to know as much bout themselves as Europeans, et-al, know about themselves? Hell, why aren't we allowed to know as much as Europeans know about us, for that matter?

 

I think of it this way. When you are driving down the road, and you see all of the other cars out there with you, did you ever wonder what all of those people are doing? They aren't all running out to the grocery store with me, so where are they going? What are they doing?

 

Assume a funeral procession is coming by. Wonder what those people are feeling? Maybe. Assume you know what the are experiencing? That would be foolish, as you have no clue as to what chain of events brought them there that day.

[~Di]

Well, I also agree with much of Grandpa's post. See how agreeable I am? Now it's true that when Langsky says something to the effect of "most non-American people don't really like you guys", he is speaking only of his own experience. There are about 6 billion non-American people in the world. I doubt the majority of them spend much time even thinking about Americans, let alone waste effort not liking them. The majority of Europeans, maybe... judging by the myriad America-sux posts I've read from Europeans over the past few years ... but not the majority of non-American people.

 

What struck me about Langsky's post is that despite his apparent youth, despite the fact that he is quite clearly surrounded by a majority of people who propagandize America in very unpleasant terms, he is willing to look beyond the hate-hype to see if there may be a larger truth. Too few folks do that nowadays, and I wanted to encourage it.

 

However, Grandpa is right when he says:

 

How can you be familiar with something you've never experienced?  Empathize with, maybe, but familiarity requires some first-hand experience... <snip>...

 

Being American, I can't assume I know how everyone feels about Americans.  Nor should I assume everyone feels the same way.  Nor should those people make assumptions that we are all a, b or c.  In fact, I find some of his opinions typical of some of those who want nothing but to find fault with America and Americans, and other statements which come clear out of the conspiracy papers....<snip>...  Assumptions based on biased news reports and interaction with faceless souls on an internet message board.  And when the American speaks up to defend himself he is ridiculed for not knowing about himself?  Please.  Why is it that Americans are not able to know as much bout themselves as Europeans, et-al, know about themselves?  Hell, why aren't we allowed to know as much as Europeans know about us, for that matter?

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I've been repeatedly criticized for saying the same kind of thing. It seems to be not only okay to insult America/Americans, it's downright faddish! And if any American takes umbrage, he/she is too often shrugged off as fanatical, brain-washed, defensive and ignorant. That is why I found Langsky's willingness to search deeper than the superficial hate-mongering which apparently surrounds him. The world cannot have too many folks who are willing to search for a deeper truth, IMHO.

[Langky]

Perhaps I should ellabourate where I grew up it would probably explain my post better.

 

I grew up in Zimbabwe a small country in africa, I was born a white african in southafrica but I moved to Zimbabwe almost immediatly afterwards so I consider that my home.

 

Growing up I was in a middle class family, I blessed with a loving family and friends but Zimbabwe was and is a dictatorship, it is ruled by a Despot by the name of Robert Mugabe.

 

Robert Mugabe is where I get my first hand expericence of what dictators are like. Mugabe removed peoples rights in a quick burst and stole untold ammounts of money from the people so that he could live in comfortability as a result he brought famine and death upon his own people. My family suffered but no where near as much as others in my country, I grew up thinking it was normal to have swarms of beggers wandering the streets in nothing but torn shirts and shorts, I was blessed with a good education there but it horrified to see much poverty and suffering.

 

The twist to this of course is that Mugabe, like Hitler had found the perfect scapegoat for the countries problems "The White Man" and the common people brought it. Me and my family suffered a great deal of racial abuse and harrasment, a friend or two was murdered, the thing that irked me was that it was at the hands of police and government officials. I spent a lot of my youth being flooded with anti-american, anti-white and anti-european propaganda. Ironically americans and europeans rarely got the brunt of this violence and oppression it was mostly simple white folk getting killed because, well they were white when they where killed they where treated like foreignors as if they were not even born there.

 

Eventually things got to hairy and me and my family had to move, I now live in Wales about 1 year later at the age of sixteen. Im surprised to see how much intollerance there is here, even here, its disgusting it seems where ever I go there is intollerance, its as if people cant see what a distructive force it is, how much harm it can do.

 

This background is perhaps the best reflector of my political and philosophical view points.

 

EDIT: Ps thanks for the understanding

[Judge Hades]

Never underestimate the power of ignorance and mankind's self destructive nature.

[Rosbjerg]

insightful posts all..

and Grandpa you are right, but some faces have been shown it seems! I hope I didn't come off as a general american hater because I'm not .. I just have some problems with your current goverment!

and Langly I too want to say that what you write is insightful .. and you have shown yourself to be much older and wiser in spirit than one of 16!!

 

I actually feel ashamed for getting pissed at Bush for hurting Europe financially! when in the long run it probably won't affect us much anyway.. :'( we will still be stinking rich.. guess I have learned a good lesson of humility today!

 

and Hades, also true .. sad .. but true!

[Karzak]

Yes, the Bush administration and related personal are a bunch of lying arseholes that deserve a bullet in their skull.  What politician isn't?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Are you advicating the assassination of the President?

[Karzak]

The problem with Langky's post is that fails to recognize a couple basic truths. First about Saddam, did Langky know Saddam funded terrorism? Does he know Saddam tried to have Bush 43 assassinated? Now why, if as Langky claims, Saddam only wants to sit in a gold palace leaving everyone alone, did Saddam do these things?

 

Obviously the claim that Saddam was not a danger if left alone is a highly contestable claim.

 

Secondly, someone who lived under a dictator and fled rather than fought really has no moral ground to attack the politics of other countries. Glass houses and stones, that sort of thing.

[mkreku]

The problem with Langky's post is that fails to recognize a couple basic truths. First about Saddam, did Langky know Saddam funded terrorism? Does he know Saddam tried to have Bush 43 assassinated? Now why, if as Langky claims, Saddam only wants to sit in a gold palace leaving everyone alone, did Saddam do these things?

 

Obviously the claim that Saddam was not a danger if left alone is a highly contestable claim.

 

Secondly, someone who lived under a dictator and fled rather than fought really has no moral ground to attack the politics of other countries. Glass houses and stones, that sort of thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And perhaps people who sit around getting fat in their own, rich countries should just keep their mouths shut (and stop their fingers from typing) about things they could not possibly know anything about? No matter if Langky got all the facts right, he can at least give a different perspective on things that I am sure not many others on this board could.

 

Ps. How about shortening that signature of yours a bit, Karzak? Rather annoying..

[Judge Hades]

Karzak not being annoying would be just wrong, mkreku. You know that.

[Dakoth]

I must admit I agree with some people that on these types of subjects I normally don't agree with. Langky gave us a perspective none of us has ever seen and that is of one of a citizen under a dictator. While I must agree that Sadam was definately a threat outside of his boarders, remember he did fight with Iran and invade Kuwait. I think Langky showed us how lucky we were to be born in free countries.

 

as for this.

 

Secondly, someone who lived under a dictator and fled rather than fought really has no moral ground to attack the politics of other countries. Glass houses and stones, that sort of thing.

 

Easily said when your not the one at the business end of a gun when all you have to fight with is sticks and rocks.

[Judge Hades]

Yes, the Bush administration and related personal are a bunch of lying arseholes that deserve a bullet in their skull.  What politician isn't?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Are you advicating the assassination of the President?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I am advocating full rebellion and reformation of the federal government, by force if needed.