213374U Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 Those characters I like from EU aren't the biggest baddest etc etc .. Is those with the most background, and deepest stories! and you have to remember that its always easier to make a literary character more powerful than one from a movie! the imagination can do alot more than visual effects, especially those from the 70'es! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Agreed but today Lucas could show Yoda wiping out entire star system - he has technology! There aren't any limitations today, really. But on the other hand Lucas promotes his vision of the late Jedi as the ones in which Force diminished. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Then why hasn't he? No, there are limits as to how lame can even Lucas be. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exar_Kun Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 213374U: This is your personal opinion and I respect that. I howewer think that entire stuff with sith magic, illusions, blowing stars is just brilliant - different preferences you see. Besides Lucas himself gave list of things ancient sith could do and not do. And thus you call him cheesy, becouse it's him who invented battle meditation, blowing stars and so on. Anderson and Veitch only did everything acc to his instructions <{POST_SNAPBACK}> i think that stuff was equally cool, like when exar made that star go supernova, but that's stretching it just a bit. but most of the time a jedi or sith did something uber they had an amulet or were in an enviroment strong in the force. my fav scene was when aleema (?) made those galaxy-traveling-starcruiser-eating creatures... and yes George had to approve all this stuff so it's legal :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nur Ab Sal Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 my fav scene was when aleema (?) made those galaxy-traveling-starcruiser-eating creatures... Star Grazers. That's one of my favourite scenes too. But Nomi handled that illusion fast. HERMOCRATES: Nur Ab Sal was one such king. He it was, say the wise men of Egypt, who first put men in the colossus, making many freaks of nature at times when the celestial spheres were well aligned. SOCRATES: This I doubt. We are hearing a child's tale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siorfin Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 I would like to point out exar kun wasn't using only his own power. As some pointed out he was using sith amulets not to mention he was using the massassi and those temples as focuses for his power off the top of my head. He didn't overpower luke, if memory serves he simply took over lukes body with the same sith magic he used to keep himself alive for all those years after yavin 4 battle. Luke was still a newb in the force to a great extent so it is no surprise kun was able to use something he had never encountered before to take over his body especially since no one even knew he was there until after the fact. Hard to defend against something you are unaware is even a danger. I doubt they could justify allowing kun to take over lukes body after the unifying force book, he would simply be to powerful and knowledgeable for it and in future books his knowledge and power will probably surpass anything even kun or the old sith lords could imagine with delving into the unifying force. Kun was also more knowledgeable than anakin who wasn't even a sith lord yet at the time of their respective duels. The second time they met obi-wan pretty much absolved his own essence before the battle got started so it wasn't really a duel. Also, for all of their power the old sith lords never managed to conquer the republic, only the carefully laid plans of darth bane and his successors managed to do this coming to fruition with the emporer who was strong enough to lead the entire galaxy into his arm and turn everyone against the jedi. To say the old sith were greater than the later generations doesn't seem prudent considering it was they who failed and not the later generations. It was only the betrayal of vader that defeated the emporer and it was only vaders own predisposed notions which kept him from killing palpatine and taking the empire for himself. Another credit to the emporers account that he could keep the most powerful jedi who had ever lived up to that point on a leash for so long and it was not the desire for power which undid him but the resurfacing of old feelings long buried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nur Ab Sal Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 When Luke met Kun he was already a Jedi Master, and the one who has defeated Vader (with little training) so he wasn't completely defenseless, but I agree that in times of NJO he may be able to resist Kun'a attack (although NJO rather portraited him as a weakling who listens to his agressive wife all the time) Don't forget that the Prequels potrait Jedi in their twilight. They aren't as great as heroes of the Sith Wars. The problem is, that in Palpatine's time, Jedi were weak lamers. 4000 years ago it was Golden Age of the Jedi and Republic , so its pointless to say palpi that or palpi those. Palpi destroyed Prequel Jedi using simple intrigue not power of the Force and made advantage of their pride and stagnation. Old Sith Lords were fighting with Jedi at their height. And Anakin wasn't most powerful Jedi ever lived. Revan and Ulic were as powerful. In the eyes of his contemporaries Anakin was maybe most powerful, but Nomi would spank him easily. During his duel with Vodo Exar was at same age as Anakin when dueling with Obi. Exar succeded without a scratch and Anakin failed completely (well he's going to fail... in may ). And you really don't witness Anakin's exceptional talent. In AOTC and following Clone Wars comics and novels he's rather moderate Jedi. It took one Jedi to destroy Palpi. It took thousands to destroy Exar Kun. Such is difference between their potentials. I guess that point of view depends what you like. You like Anakin and Palpi, I like Exar and Ulic... so we'll never agree HERMOCRATES: Nur Ab Sal was one such king. He it was, say the wise men of Egypt, who first put men in the colossus, making many freaks of nature at times when the celestial spheres were well aligned. SOCRATES: This I doubt. We are hearing a child's tale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siorfin Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 "Don't forget that the Prequels potrait Jedi in their twilight. They aren't as great as heroes of the Sith Wars. The problem is, that in Palpatine's time, Jedi were weak lamers. 4000 years ago it was Golden Age of the Jedi and Republic , so its pointless to say palpi that or palpi those. Palpi destroyed Prequel Jedi using simple intrigue not power of the Force and made advantage of their pride and stagnation. Old Sith Lords were fighting with Jedi at their height. And Anakin wasn't most powerful Jedi ever lived. Revan and Ulic were as powerful. In the eyes of his contemporaries Anakin was maybe most powerful, but Nomi would spank him easily." Which is the point I was making, anakin was not as knowledgeable as kun was during their respective duels. Correct me if I am wrong but kun was probably far more knowledgeable than a fledgling anakin during his duel than was anakin when he fought obi-wan which makes a big difference. Power without knowledge of its use is useless. The jedi numbered in the thousands which is why it was a golden age not necessarily because they were more knowledgeable or more powerful. They had lost lore from ages past in that age just the same as the jedi of new hope had lost lore from the jedi golden era. The main problem was their connection to the force and their ability to make heads or tails of what it spoke to them which was caused by the darkside interference. Again correct me if I am wrong. According to the movies he used the force to cloud the ability of the jedi to sense anything that might have otherwise been found wrong. He used the force to bring the senate over into his power. He used intrigue of course but all sith are plotters, as I think it was yoda who said the way of the darkside or the sith is lies and deception. "During his duel with Vodo Exar was at same age as Anakin when dueling with Obi. Exar succeded without a scratch and Anakin failed completely (well he's going to fail... in may)." See above response. "It took one Jedi to destroy Palpi. It took thousands to destroy Exar Kun. Such is difference between their potentials. I guess that point of view depends what you like. You like Anakin and Palpi, I like Exar and Ulic... so we'll never agree" It took one betrayal by an apprentice to defeat palpatine, luke was wuss compared to the emperor. Also, kun prepared in advance for the coming attack and took his power at the expense of others, in terms of raw power palpatine was probably stronger and he could have done same things kun did having been trained in a line of sith lords which ascended directly from the last major sith civil war. It was that of trying to overpower the republic which repeatedly failed along with the stronger rules all mentality which was the downfall of the sith and which was why bane chose the way of deception and the rule of two to accomplish what brute force could not. I am not really a fan of the later years of the jedi, I like the old republic era best I just don't think saying one era of sith is more powerful than another. Kun was a powerful sith lord as they go in the sw universe but any other sith lord could have done the same things and some did in varying degress while others chose different paths entirely. In the end it was palpatine and the mentality set forth by darth bane which brought the old republic to its knees, attacking from within rather than without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarethCarrots Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 what exactly is the unifying force, and was luke the only jedi to use it??? im really REALLY wanting to know so dont keep me waitin plz! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
213374U Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 During his duel with Vodo Exar was at same age as Anakin when dueling with Obi.Exar succeded without a scratch and Anakin failed completely (well he's going to fail... in may ). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah, a double bladed lightsaber against a wooden staff. Impressive, most impressive. It took one Jedi to destroy Palpi. It took thousands to destroy Exar Kun. Such is difference between their potentials. I guess that point of view depends what you like. You like Anakin and Palpi, I like Exar and Ulic... so we'll never agree <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't remember the Jedi actually fighting Exar Kun. As soon as he saw his plans crumbling, he crawled back to his lab to seek some way of saving his sorry ass. Such was the love the author had grown for his character, that he couldn't even give him a worthy end. You say everything in the EU is approved by Lucas, well, I doubt he would have allowed some 3rd line author to kill Chewie just to sell more books. Obviously somebody didn't do their job. I would be delighted to see those parts of the EU stomped by 100% canon movies. Then again, all your assumptions that the Jedi of the prequels aren't worth jack, are based on the uber powerful lamers from the EU. I for one will wait until that is mentioned in the movies. Fortunately, GL will not turn SW into DBZ or Matrix Revolutions. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MASTER Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 It took one Jedi to destroy Palpi. It took thousands to destroy Exar Kun. Such is difference between their potentials.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> So, he was the strongest ever, and it was his appertiance so that was normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laozi Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 Well......Alot to address here I guess I would first have to state, that to me Exar Kun's abilities are ridiculous, special jewelry aside, no matter how nice of the bling bling he has, to give one such power makes EVERYONE else before or after so insignificant. The fact that one could have power over so many in my mind totally goes against the idea of a living force, infact its the exact opposite. Plus the way he fell, I just don't see much creativity in it, you would think one that could wield such power would be able to have free choice, but somehow this isn't the case. Sure its great to really like the most powerful in the galaxy but what does this do to the Han Solos and Wedge Achillies? Doesn't the idea of the individual who has the power of the gods diminish the idea that one who makes the best of what they're given has equal influence. What could Han and the Millennium Falcon do against such a foe? Not much I'm afraid. To some this might seem epic, but to me its simplistic and I totally agree with 213374U's accessment that the author became so enamoured with his own charcter that he couldn't even give him a suitable end. This is apparent in the entire story and is just a cheap storytelling. How clever is this? But this seems to be a huge problem for the whole EU. One thing about good villian, they hatch there plots, rise to power, and then eventially die, but the writers of the EU seem to have such a lack of creativity that they must reuse villians so many times that they get run into the ground. People laugh when I say that I think a jellyfish is one of the most beautiful things in the world. What they don't understand is, I mean a jellyfish with long, blond hair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosbjerg Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 I guess it's what you bring to the story that matters .. But I was also really disappointed about Exar's death, or lack off, and definitelty disappointed about the whole 4000 years later on Yavin thing .. Like Laozi, I felt that the fact that he could wield such force mastery was a kind of mockery to the universe, that the author felt he needed to resort to that instead of good storytelling was a sad thing indeed! and I know I said it quite a few times now, but I liked his fall for the opposite reason, that he didn't have much of a choice! or in the "Matrix Retrospect", he did but had already made it because of his fear of death! plus it seems that in SW there is a little thing called destiny, and the force, no matter who you are, will guide you towards it! but in the end the choice is yours, and I think he took the choice of the easy way.. But I don't know why you bring up the Han thing Laozi? most normal people wouldn't really stand much of a chance against any Jedi, only if luck, or The Force, is really on their side .. Fortune favors the bald. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laozi Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 But I don't know why you bring up the Han thing Laozi? most normal people wouldn't really stand much of a chance against any Jedi, only if luck, or The Force, is really on their side .. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ordinary people in extrordinary circumstances, Lando and Wedge destroyed the 2nd Death Star, with out Han Luke never would have been able to destroy the 1st. Don't get me wrong obviuosly Han couldn't defeat Vader, but he cold play a hand in it. The perfect example of both choice and the ordinary becoming extrordinary in my mind can be taken from the LOTR. Isildur even though he was a Dunadan, is only a man (if you have ever read Tolkien then you know that Elves are the superior race in most ways) for just a moment managed to do what noone else could, cut the One Ring from the hand od Sauron. Then he had a choice, to destroy the ring, or as he ended up doing, letting it seduce him. The only thing that decieved him was the ring and the power it presented, he was not cut off or blinded to the other option. Also though a high King of Numenor, he in no way was Sauron's equal, or even close. Alot would say how can yu compare the EU to a classic like the LOTR, but if you settle for less then that's all you're going to get, and I'm afraid thats all we have People laugh when I say that I think a jellyfish is one of the most beautiful things in the world. What they don't understand is, I mean a jellyfish with long, blond hair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosbjerg Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 Well any one under the right circumstances could've blown Exar out of the sky as well .. And that's a theme many of the classics play uopn as well! that's true .. The Iliad where Paris kills Achilles for example as well! and that's a good theme to play upon .. or even Ulic, even though he was no longer a threat or even much of a Jedi, being shot through the heart by Hoggon! But then again it would've been a little to close to the Ulic story if Exar was killed by a normal human (or alien) .. I just wished they would've let him go out with some glory in the final battle, but then again, the man was afraid to die, and that's what his story is very much about! Fortune favors the bald. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laozi Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 They wouldn't have to actually kill Exar, just make it more than just a big Jedi orgy, Its just that more than jedis will shape the galaxy People laugh when I say that I think a jellyfish is one of the most beautiful things in the world. What they don't understand is, I mean a jellyfish with long, blond hair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosbjerg Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 hey what happened to your "good point" remark?? but yes, that is an important part of SW to have ordinary people rise up .. But in the Exar story it wouldn't really fit in, which imo (and yours it seems) just shows he was too powerful for his own good (and because of bad writing).. and having Exar killed/defeated/captured by a commoner would really seem a little too much like the writer would be trying to make a point of how normal people can defeat god-like beings as well! the wrote him too powerful to be defeated any other way than 20.000 jedis .. to the writer: and that just shows that you should be a little careful and remember the word "moderation"! Fortune favors the bald. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laozi Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 hey what happened to your "good point" remark?? but yes, that is an important part of SW to have ordinary people rise up .. But in the Exar story it wouldn't really fit in, which imo (and yours it seems) just shows he was too powerful for his own good (and because of bad writing).. and having Exar killed/defeated/captured by a commoner would really seem a little too much like the writer would be trying to make a point of how normal people can defeat god-like beings as well! the wrote him too powerful to be defeated any other way than 20.000 jedis .. to the writer: and that just shows that you should be a little careful and remember the word "moderation"! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Very good point, you're incredible People laugh when I say that I think a jellyfish is one of the most beautiful things in the world. What they don't understand is, I mean a jellyfish with long, blond hair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosbjerg Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 and thereby you indirectly say you are incredible yourself by agreeing with me .. sneaky bastard .. hehe Fortune favors the bald. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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