Nur Ab Sal Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 Aaargh! What a great discussion we have here! Thanks to you guys Tales of the Jedi are truly alive! BTW maybe Freedon somehow blocked Kun's LS abilities, like Vergere who later blocked Jacen's force powers (in Traitor)! It could be a psionic suggestion! HERMOCRATES: Nur Ab Sal was one such king. He it was, say the wise men of Egypt, who first put men in the colossus, making many freaks of nature at times when the celestial spheres were well aligned. SOCRATES: This I doubt. We are hearing a child's tale.
DarthRevan987 Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 Sneaky DJ Freedon Nadd was...And clever
Rosbjerg Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 Aaargh! What a great discussion we have here! Thanks to you guys Tales of the Jedi are truly alive! BTW maybe Freedon somehow blocked Kun's LS abilities, like Vergere who later blocked Jacen's force powers (in Traitor)! It could be a psionic suggestion! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> thanks .. you have to explain the "psionic suggestion" part .. did you mean that Nadd blocked his LS ability through suggestion, meaning that Exar wanted subconciously to be DS? .. or am I putting words in your mouth? Fortune favors the bald.
Nur Ab Sal Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 Well he could manipulated his mind, so Exar got an impression that he was unable to use LS. I refer to D&D Expanded Psionic Handbook by Wizards. HERMOCRATES: Nur Ab Sal was one such king. He it was, say the wise men of Egypt, who first put men in the colossus, making many freaks of nature at times when the celestial spheres were well aligned. SOCRATES: This I doubt. We are hearing a child's tale.
Rosbjerg Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 k .. Well Nur, to get you into the discussion, because I would like to hear your opinion about it .. Do you think Exar's fall was written in a convincing way? and what was the cause? and how about the element of blocking a side of the force, many think that its not about two sides, but how you use it! edit: damn I sound like a reporter there .. hehe Fortune favors the bald.
Fardragon Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 A strong enough Sith Master might be able to use the Mind Trick to convince a Jedi they where no longer able to use the LS of the Force. "This isn't the side you're looking for." Everyone knows Science Fiction is really cool. You know what PoE really needs? Spaceships! There isn't any game that wouldn't be improved by a space combat minigame. Adding one to PoE would send sales skyrocketing, and ensure the game was remembered for all time!!!!!
213374U Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 A strong enough Sith Master might be able to use the Mind Trick to convince a Jedi they where no longer able to use the LS of the Force. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Come now. You couldn't even manipulate the mind of that worthless soldier at the door of the academy and you expect to be able to use a mind trick on someone strong in the Force? Obi-Wan says: 'the Force influences greatly the weak-minded' or whatever. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
Rosbjerg Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 A strong enough Sith Master might be able to use the Mind Trick to convince a Jedi they where no longer able to use the LS of the Force. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Come now. You couldn't even manipulate the mind of that worthless soldier at the door of the academy and you expect to be able to use a mind trick on someone strong in the Force? Obi-Wan says: 'the Force influences greatly the weak-minded' or whatever. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No it was probably more in the same area as how Nomi cut Ulic from the force .. though not that severe .. Fortune favors the bald.
Nur Ab Sal Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 k .. Well Nur, to get you into the discussion, because I would like to hear your opinion about it .. Do you think Exar's fall was written in a convincing way? and what was the cause? and how about the element of blocking a side of the force, many think that its not about two sides, but how you use it! edit: damn I sound like a reporter there .. hehe <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If I can be honest I was really stunned when reading Dark Lords of the Sith and I rate this comic as best star wars comic ever (next are Redemption and Republic) - mainly becouse of Exar's character, his dark journey and seduction. You see his power, his arrogance but also his sensitivity... as for a comic there's great depth in showing step-by-step how he dives more deeply in the ancient teachings and his scientific fascinations transforms into desire for power. I think that we don't have any star wars novel that has ever shown such convincing seduction by the dark side - maybe Matthew Stover's ep3 novelization will be better. But the main reason I rate DLOTS so high is Exar Kun and his dark journey that led him to become a Dark Lord. In mid 1990 Exar Kun really was interesting ancient alternative to Vader - and this was George Lucas' intention becouse he made a profile of this character and a list of things he could and couldn't do (so if someone says that ancient sith are lame, he should know that Lucas himself oversaw the birth of that character and entire ancient republic setting too) The storyline is really brilliant - you really get impression that all events are set by some greater power (Freedon's uprising, rise of the Krath, death of master Arca, downfall of Exar) and there's no escape from fate. OK now my opinion about differences between Exar and Ulic: Exar was most powerful Jedi of his generation simply becouse it is him who was chosen by ancient sith lords spirits to be next Dark Lord and avenge the fall of the Sith Empire! If Qel Droma would be more powerful than Exar he would be appointed Dark Lord and yet Marka Ragnos said that he will be apprentice (and earlier Freedon said to ulic "there's another one... even greater than you" refering obviously to Exar) From three most powerful force users of the Great Sith War (Nomi Sunrider, Exar Kun and Ulic) Ulic proved to be weakest: he let himself be stripped of his force powers by Nomi and earlier captured by Republic. He was on his trial defenseless and couldn't do nothing. Exar on the other hand came to the trial, freezed all who were present and killed his own master (Anakin couldn't do that) who was great swordsman. So this whole trial case shown that Ulic was weaker than Exar... and later it took thousands of Jedi to destroy Exar Kun, while it took only Nomi to finish Ulic. No,no as much as I like Ulic I can't say that his force potential was as great as Exar's who's abilities were just greater. Besides always the strongest one is the Dark Lord. Of course in terms of swordsmanship Ulic, Exar and Nomi were equals (when dueling Exar and ulic both armed with amulets couldn't win - it was a stalemate) Nomi perhaps was the most gifted if she started to learn swordsmanship a year before Sith War and quickly became equal to Exar and Ulic who were practicing this their whole lives... Anyhow I think that Exar was most powerful in terms of force using - otherwise he wouldn't be a Dark Lord, and 1000-years old Marka Ragnos knew well who is best candidate for this rank. HERMOCRATES: Nur Ab Sal was one such king. He it was, say the wise men of Egypt, who first put men in the colossus, making many freaks of nature at times when the celestial spheres were well aligned. SOCRATES: This I doubt. We are hearing a child's tale.
Rosbjerg Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 as I have stated a few times now .. I felt Exars fall was a excellent one as well! and mostly because I felt sorry for him all the way through it! but I really didn't like that he became sooo powerful, it seemed a little excessive to me! I wouldn't mind him being the strongest force wielder of his time, but able to implode stars and freeze an entire court, even though that was some special Sith magic IIRC .. it seemed, like Laozi also stated, that the writer wanted to focus more on his abilities after the fall instead of his character! and to me that was a shame! Overall I liked Ulics story the most .. He seems to me as one of the most developed characters of that time! it played on some very useful themes, that you can be redeemed, but the universe will never forget your actions .. And I really hope KOTOR2 will use this angle, without ripping it off of course, on Revan! although he did save the galaxy (LS) he will still have to come to terms with his own past, and the fact that everyone will look on him with suspicion! because it was really a shame that you wasn't confronted with his actions before KOTOR .. I didn't really feel bad for what he did and my motivation was therefore not redemtion.. Fortune favors the bald.
Nur Ab Sal Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 I fear that Revan will be shown without depth becouse Obisidian wants to promote their new heroes in the first place (Chris Avellone is obviously Mira's fanboy ) Same about Bastila: I doubt she'll be potraited correctly, either she should be trademark of the series (like Katarn in Jedi Knight) either she should perish I fear, that they will butcher her like Aribeth in Hordes of the Underdark! OK now to previous issue: Come now. You couldn't even manipulate the mind of that worthless soldier at the door of the academy and you expect to be able to use a mind trick on someone strong in the Force? Obi-Wan says: 'the Force influences greatly the weak-minded' or whatever. Well actually Palpatine was tricking Yoda and his council all the time. Vergere used on Jacen also some kind of mind manipulation. Kyp Durron in Edge of Victory used mindtrick on Jaina, who was one of more powerful Jedi of her times (but not as powerful as Durron). Lomi Plo in Star by Star, dathomir witch, used mindtrick on young Anakin Solo (he admitted it later). The problem with mindtrick is that you can use on less powerful than you - and this means Jedi as well. Anyhow EU shows that more powerful force-users can use mindtricks on less powerful force-users. HERMOCRATES: Nur Ab Sal was one such king. He it was, say the wise men of Egypt, who first put men in the colossus, making many freaks of nature at times when the celestial spheres were well aligned. SOCRATES: This I doubt. We are hearing a child's tale.
DarthRevan987 Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 Well said both of you...I feel the same way.Alot say that Darth Vader was the most powerful Sith Lord in history and this and that...But when you compare him to those like Marka Ragnos and Exar Kun he really isnt all that great.Dont get me wrong i like Vader but Exar Kun were able to do things that Vader couldnt do.And Vader is the Chosen One. Like Nur Ab Sal said Exar Kun was strong enough to kill his own Jedi Master Vader wasnt able to kill Obi Wan.Now if Vader didnt need the suit things may be different but then again maybe not.
Nur Ab Sal Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 Thanks :cool: I think that Vader was powerful in terms of the galaxy's modern era, but in the ancient times Jedi and Sith were more powerful and Force was different. Naga Sadow was able to blew stars and he was creating entire armies using art of illusion... something Palpi couldn't do. Also Jedi Masters like Arca or Vodo were more powerful than Yoda, who could only move stupid bricks in Dooku's cave and one x-wing, while they could use battle meditation on grand scale, and Vodo even didn't need ligthsaber - he enhanced a simple stick with his force potential so it could stand ligthsaber hit! And even Luke, who was far more powerful than his father Anakin, was defeated by spirit of Exar Kun - imagine what Exar would do with Vader who always had serious health problems... HERMOCRATES: Nur Ab Sal was one such king. He it was, say the wise men of Egypt, who first put men in the colossus, making many freaks of nature at times when the celestial spheres were well aligned. SOCRATES: This I doubt. We are hearing a child's tale.
DarthRevan987 Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 Vader would be crushed by a simple jesture by Exar Kun. Exar Kun has far too much knowledge of magic and spells. Naga Sadow was the master of illusion.Shame how the New Sith Order are so weak when comparing them to their ancestors.You would thing the future generation would be stronger then the older one
DarthRevan987 Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 "Vodo even didn't need ligthsaber - he enhanced a simple stick with his force potential so it could stand ligthsaber hit!" A shame Exar Kuns double edged blue saber broke the stick...But powerful none the less
213374U Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 Well actually Palpatine was tricking Yoda and his council all the time. Vergere used on Jacen also some kind of mind manipulation. Kyp Durron in Edge of Victory used mindtrick on Jaina, who was one of more powerful Jedi of her times (but not as powerful as Durron). Lomi Plo in Star by Star, dathomir witch, used mindtrick on young Anakin Solo (he admitted it later). The problem with mindtrick is that you can use on less powerful than you - and this means Jedi as well. Anyhow EU shows that more powerful force-users can use mindtricks on less powerful force-users. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah. Did I mention how cheesy are the EU novels? I can't stand them. I'll go by the movies if it's all the same to you. I think that Vader was powerful in terms of the galaxy's modern era, but in the ancient times Jedi and Sith were more powerful and Force was different. Naga Sadow was able to blew stars and he was creating entire armies using art of illusion... something Palpi couldn't do. Also Jedi Masters like Arca or Vodo were more powerful than Yoda who could only move stupid bricks in Dooku's cave and one x-wing, while they could use battle meditation on grand scale. And even Luke, who was far more powerful than his father Anakin, was defeated by spirit of Exar Kun - imagine what Exar would do with Vader who always had serious health problems... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Right. How would those poor authors sell a single comic or novel if they didn't make 'uber munchkin' characters like those. Where SW meets DBZ. OMG... how could Lucas let his creation be raped in such a way. Oh of course, I forgot. Money. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
DarthRevan987 Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 After reading the comics and looking up information about Sith Lords and Jedi back in the Old Republic days and i look at those like Yoda,Sidious,Vader etc and im like...Is that all they are capable of?
Nur Ab Sal Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 213374U: This is your personal opinion and I respect that. I howewer think that entire stuff with sith magic, illusions, blowing stars is just brilliant - different preferences you see. Besides Lucas himself gave list of things ancient sith could do and not do. And thus you call him cheesy, becouse it's him who invented battle meditation, blowing stars and so on. Anderson and Veitch only did everything acc to his instructions HERMOCRATES: Nur Ab Sal was one such king. He it was, say the wise men of Egypt, who first put men in the colossus, making many freaks of nature at times when the celestial spheres were well aligned. SOCRATES: This I doubt. We are hearing a child's tale.
DarthRevan987 Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 Lucas making MULA off of those "cheesy" novels and EU
Rosbjerg Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 I agree with 213374U there .. It's a shame that they feel the need to make every new character that thet develop even more insane or even more powerful than the last .. It's a sad trend that they have borrowed from Hollywood! and thats why I'm against, although very much too late, the raised level cap for TSL .. Those characters I like from EU aren't the biggest baddest etc etc .. Is those with the most background, and deepest stories! and you have to remember that its always easier to make a literary character more powerful than one from a movie! the imagination can do alot more than visual effects, especially those from the 70'es! Fortune favors the bald.
Nur Ab Sal Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 Agreed but today Lucas could show Yoda wiping out entire star system - he has technology! There aren't any limitations today, really. But on the other hand Lucas promotes his vision of the late Jedi as the ones in which Force diminished. I think that if GL ever would like to make movies set in Sith Wars era he would show us sith lords blowing stars and making powerful illusions. Ancient galaxy was very fantasy like with magic and other stuff HERMOCRATES: Nur Ab Sal was one such king. He it was, say the wise men of Egypt, who first put men in the colossus, making many freaks of nature at times when the celestial spheres were well aligned. SOCRATES: This I doubt. We are hearing a child's tale.
jaguars4ever Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 I agree with 213374U there .. It's a shame that they feel the need to make every new character that thet develop even more insane or even more powerful than the last .. It's a sad trend that they have borrowed from Hollywood! and thats why I'm against, although very much too late, the raised level cap for TSL ..Those characters I like from EU aren't the biggest baddest etc etc .. Is those with the most background, and deepest stories! and you have to remember that its always easier to make a literary character more powerful than one from a movie! the imagination can do alot more than visual effects, especially those from the 70'es! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Took your time with that post, eh Rosb? I mean at 2 & a half hours that's got to be some kind of record.
Rosbjerg Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 I agree with 213374U there .. It's a shame that they feel the need to make every new character that thet develop even more insane or even more powerful than the last .. It's a sad trend that they have borrowed from Hollywood! and thats why I'm against, although very much too late, the raised level cap for TSL ..Those characters I like from EU aren't the biggest baddest etc etc .. Is those with the most background, and deepest stories! and you have to remember that its always easier to make a literary character more powerful than one from a movie! the imagination can do alot more than visual effects, especially those from the 70'es! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Took your time with that post, eh Rosb? I mean at 2 & a half hours that's got to be some kind of record. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> watching something .. sorry won't happen again! Fortune favors the bald.
Rosbjerg Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 Agreed but today Lucas could show Yoda wiping out entire star system - he has technology! There aren't any limitations today, really. But on the other hand Lucas promotes his vision of the late Jedi as the ones in which Force diminished. I think that if GL ever would like to make movies set in Sith Wars era he would show us sith lords blowing stars and making powerful illusions. Ancient galaxy was very fantasy like with magic and other stuff <{POST_SNAPBACK}> but then the movies are meant for everyone .. and although people like the notion of powerful figures, I don't think they really want too powerful figures! Vader was cool because he didn't need to show how powerful he was! you just knew it .. you could feel the power almost glowing out of him.. same thing goes with Yoda, but in a different kinda way .. edit: and girls watch SW nowadays, and my impression is they don't really enjoy the extreme Sci-Fi fantasy! but yes, if GL ever made a movie from the Old Republic era he would have to show how powerful the people from that time was .. I may not condone it, but they are established characters so I will live with it! (besides it would kinda rock to see Exar blow up a star on the big screen hehe) Fortune favors the bald.
Nur Ab Sal Posted November 23, 2004 Posted November 23, 2004 Yeah! There are great many scenes in TOTJ like destruction of Ossus, Exar in the galactic senate, Naga Sadow's invasion of Coruscant and greatest of all how Exar was destroyed on Yavin - it would be fantastic to see those 20.000 Jedi repelling his dark side energies using battle meditation, guy perished in great style, no doubt about that! HERMOCRATES: Nur Ab Sal was one such king. He it was, say the wise men of Egypt, who first put men in the colossus, making many freaks of nature at times when the celestial spheres were well aligned. SOCRATES: This I doubt. We are hearing a child's tale.
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