Light Side Powers

[Weiser_Cain]

Didn't read the whole topic but I'd like to point out that luke isn't a pure LS Jedi. His corruption shows in the way he dresses going from white in the first movie to black in the last. It's his potential to fall that palpatine is counting on, and that's why he spends sxo much time trying to convert him.

The lightside of the force is purely defensive, offensive powers are the path to the dark side of the force, period.

[Siorfin]

My theory also gets more credence from the jedi principle of only using force, ie attacking in any manner, when there is no other option. The whole jedi outlook is one of trying to avoid a fight if at all possible and it is no large leap to say this plays out in their outlook on force use as well, ie they only use what is necessary and nothing more.

[SilverSun]

Hysteria0730:

 

The thing here is that the Jedi was desperate. And its okay to think that he used his power in fear of losing / in fear of losing his loved one / etc.

 

If the Jedi acted out of desperation of fear,the Jedi wasn't in control of their emotions and ther for would be different from the then what I'm talking about. And which is why I've said that it would take a powerful Jedi who has the control to do as such.

 

About lightsabers I don't know much. But its not aggressive or light ot dark or defensive force we use when fighting with a lightsaber. Its the same force. Windu's form needs much control of the force and he does so. The force used in all of the forms is the same.

 

I phrased that kind of funny,my mistake. You are correct it is the same Force. It's the same Force used no matter how it's used,both sides use the same power for different reasons. It's intent behind the use that make it dark or light. Windu's form is an aggressive form,because of how close it is too that line between dark and light,is the reason for the control. Which is in the realm of what I've been saying. If the Jedi has the control needed,they can take an aggressive stance against the DS and for the protection of life. Windu took an aggressive stance against Jango when he played Barry Bonds with his head,he didn't fear his actions depsite the aggrressive approach,he didn't look for another options durning that fight because there weren't any.

 

Meh! the force is complicated.

 

Yes it is,if it were black and white as some say,it wouldn't be.

 

Thank you! Have some Tatooine(sp) Ale on me

 

Thanks.

 

Ameorn:

 

I find this topic amusing. Everybody says they're right and none will surrender...

Hah, tis' funny it is

 

Can't speak for anyone else but I'm not trying to change anyone's mind with this. I simply enjoy these kinds of debates,people don't want to buy into what I'm saying that's more then fine by me. All in fun.

 

213374U:

 

Welcome Back

 

You are considering Luke the perfect Jedi, when he's far from being so.

 

I am? When did I state that?

 

He acted in fear in the cave of Dagobah, he acted in anger against his father on board the DS, he tried to strike down an unarmed Emperor after failing to resist the taunts. He was this close to falling to the DS. That in the movies only. In fact Luke's own struggle to keep the DS at bay was one of the movies' plots.

 

You're correct,I know these things. However I look at each situation as an individual. The things above he did do,and they were DS in some way or form. However the scene ROTJ was not like the above,no Vader,no Pal,noting for him to be afraid of nothing to to set up to the point that the anger comes free. He simply had one purpose when he walked into the Jabba's,to save his friends,the protection of his friend's lives. I saw no lack of control,no anger,no fear,just the understanding that an aggressive stance was needed. Much the same way Windu took off Jango's head without blinking.

 

Maybe it all would have come down to a fight in the end, but he didn't even try to avoid hurting them. That's not the way of the Jedi.

 

Time was more important then saying please. A Jedi isn't wasteful of too much,time would have been wasted trying to talk to two people who would not have moved no matter what was said. Luke grew up on Tattooine and knew all about the Rep Jabba and his crew had.

 

I believe Jedi regard Force skills such as lightning and hurling objects at a target as deviations of the dark side. Using them is inherently evil. No Jedi would ever use those. Pushing away others with the Force is a different matter, since there is a risk of causing major injury or death, but that is not the intent of the Jedi when doing so. Therefore a Jedi might choose to take that risk if the situation warrants it.

 

And where I respect that,I believe that in certain situations,certain individuals would use a more aggressive defense,as has been shown to be done in dffierent forms in the SW universe. Every Jedi? No,Every situations?No. But if there's a rule there's an exception,if there's an exception someone will use it.

 

phyre:

 

A weapon is tool used to cause harm, it will always be offensive.

 

So a Jedi can never use their Lightsaber for defense?It's strictly offense? Wouldn't that go against the code you're trying to tell me they follow? A weapon is not only offense,a weapon is not only meant for harm,a weapon can be used to defend those who can't do it themselves,and has been a number of times. You can't have one without the other,a weapon is both.

 

Every weapon in the history of mankind was abused.

 

Something being abused doesn't change what it is,or the facts around it. And weapon can just as easily be used only in defense as it can offense.

 

How could you possibly use the gun to shoot the rapist if you did not feel some negative emotion toward this rapist? Sure, to use the gun you need to know how to pull the trigger, but why would you use it in the first place? You would shoot him because you were angry at what he did, or maybe because you hated him for being an animal.

 

Large assumption there,if I myself were then that case,my main thought would be protection of the person being attacked. I would neither feel hate nor anger towards the attacker,simply a need to stop the attack. Not everyone reacts the same or has the same feelings in a given situation. People are individuals.

 

Using it to kill is wrong, no matter the how or why of it.

 

That's correct,using it with murder in your mind is wrong. Using it as a way to defend someone else is not. A Jedi could use the Force in such a way to remove the threat,not try an kill the attacker, yet still take an aggressive stance towards stopping it. And again,I'm not saying anyone/everyone could pull such an act off. It is close to that line bewteen the dark and light and would need someone with a large amount of control to do. Nor am I saying in every fight the Jedi is going to go off frying people with lighting or something. I'm saying certain situations.

 

How much harder, then, would it be for a Jedi to master such techniques that use the Force to directly hurt or kill someone? If only a handful of Jedi can barely manage to master a lightsaber form that flirts with the Darkside how can any Jedi possibly begin to suggest using offensive Force techniques? Restricting any offensive use of the force is meant to protect the Jedi who do not have the will to resist the Darkside after tasting it.

 

Heh,which is exactly why I'm saying only certain very powerful in control individuals would be able to pull something like that off. Would it be hard? Without a doubt,hard doesn't mean impossible. I and understand why the restrict it,but look at Windu. Did the council kick him out when he started learn his saber style? Or when he mastered it? Heh,a Master can get away with pushing a few limits more then a Padawan can. Qui-Gon was another Jedi who could be aggressive in certain situations,not such much on the battle field,but with the Council. Jedi,even though it might fit right into their little line of teaching,have aggressive individuals with in the order that don't fall.

 

e didn't have to choke them. He could have used the Force to paralyze them. So many options, so many alternatives, but he resorted to violence. Why? Because it was the easy way. It was not the Jedi thing to do.

 

Perhaps,but as I said above,time was more important then saying please.

 

First of all, what says using an offensive power against an opponent so much more powerful would even suceed? Although I see how an opponent would be surprised to see such aggressive use of the Force by a Jedi. But why would the Jedi even consider using the Force for offense? Is it because he is afraid he will lose?

 

Fear?No. It removes the threat the most effective way possible to save a life in a situation where little time is had. And there is no 100% reason to believe it would work,I never said there was. But sometimes an aggressive offense needs an aggressive defense to stop it.

 

213374U(again):

 

? For a Jedi, there are not many cases in which the only way to protect themselves or others is using the Force in a harmful way. They are trained in other, less offensive, ways of wielding their power.

 

Agreed,but not every situation can be planned or trained for. Hint why I'm saying certaint situations.

 

Spook:

 

The one that is in need of protection from harm from aggressors.

 

Exactly. So why would the concern or respect from life stop a Jedi from protecting an innocent?

 

The use of the force as it has been descibed in SW does not follow normal moral codes. Force powers that harm is DS no matter what the intent was, but if your intent was good you might slide to DS slower then the one using it in anger without care. But slide you would never the less.

 

So Windu was sliding towards the DS? He needed the Force to control not only his emotions when was fighting but also his saber? He called on the Force to do very aggressive actions that cause harm. The fact the Force was focused into his saber instead of a lighting makes a difference? The Force is needed to preform an aggressive action,the Force plays a role in harming or taking another's life. Not really a difference.

 

Like shooting someone and saying you didn't kill them the bullet did.

 

Weiser_Cain:

 

His corruption shows in the way he dresses going from white in the first movie to black in the last.

 

That line of thinking died with the Purge. Luke brought a more,shall we say,modern line of thinking to the Jedi. The color of one's outfit doesn't reflect the person on the inside.

 

:lol:Well this was long....

[Weiser_Cain]

Weiser_Cain:

 

His corruption shows in the way he dresses going from white in the first movie to black in the last.

 

That line of thinking died with the Purge. Luke brought a more,shall we say,modern line of thinking to the Jedi. The color of one's outfit doesn't reflect the person on the inside.

 

I'm talking about the intent of the filmmakers.

[Planar Jedi]

The Force will never be fully understood. i do not think that Yoda himself could understand completely the Force. And Luke, by choking the guards chose the easy path. no matter the intention, harming someone is evil. if the intention is to protect someone else then the evil becomes less. It is still evil however. Let's say something extreme. Some politician wants to solve the problem of AIDS. The extreme solution would be to gather all those people, and execute them, to make sure that the virus would not torment humanity anymore. His intentions are good. Is he lightside though? Think about that

[Weiser_Cain]

I prefer to think about puppies...

[Planar Jedi]

Then think about puppies

[Spook]

Spook:

 

The one that is in need of protection from harm from aggressors.

 

Exactly. So why would the concern or respect from life stop a Jedi from protecting an innocent?

Protecting an innocent is not the same asagressive attack. A jedi would when the situation is clear use what harm the situation demand, and not more. The reason a Jedi might hesitate would be because he might not think he has the entire picture of the situation.

The use of the force as it has been descibed in SW does not follow normal moral codes. Force powers that harm is DS no matter what the intent was, but if your intent was good you might slide to DS slower then the one using it in anger without care. But slide you would never the less.

 

So Windu was sliding towards the DS? He needed the Force to control not only his emotions when was fighting but also his saber? He called on the Force to do very aggressive actions that cause harm. The fact the Force was focused into his saber instead of a lighting makes a difference? The Force is needed to preform an aggressive action,the Force plays a role in harming or taking another's life. Not really a difference.

 

Like shooting someone and saying you didn't kill them the bullet did.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Except that in the case of the force the "bullet" is the force user. When a Jedi use the force to enhance himself to fight better the force is not harming anyone, it is the action of the attacks of the Jedi that harms.

 

When a Jedi use choke or force lightning then it is the Force that harms, and the Jedi starts to be pulled to the dark side. By using DS powers you get pulled to the dark side, even if your motives was pure. That is why Jedi don't use DS powers.

[Weiser_Cain]

*thinks about smushing puppies*

*glad smashing pumpkins is gone*