So how about that apology.

[Dakoth]

Dakoth there are sections of I-80, and just about every interstate, that are extremely pivitol. We have too much traffic as it is. Taking out pivitol traffic areas would be devastating.

 

Traffic in the Portland area is HORRIBLE, same as Seattle. If ANY of the major traffic areas were taken out in either of these cities. We would be in 3 hour traffic jams everyday. There are traffic jams here at 10 at night! Its taken me 3 hours alone to get through Seattle before! And thats WITH a functional interstate system.

 

"Huge problems does not necessarily mean those areas would be crippled as there is almost always more than one way into a city."

 

There are not many ways into Portland from Washington,other then the I-5 bridge. Otherwise be ready to travel quite a long ways. With an easy fews bombs, they could disconnect states from each other!   And birdges take a LONG time to build. If not be crippled, majorly hampered it would be.

 

No the problem is we see differently on how our country would be crippled. Just because they could really inconvience our people doesn't mean the infrastructure would be crippled.

 

I underlined a portion of what you said so I could bring attention to it. What you meant to say are there are not many direct routes from Washington to Portland. There are many routes between Washington and Portland just none as direct as I-5.

 

Now for the part I highlighted and put in bold, that is an out and out lie and I challenge you to show how they could do this to any state save Hawaii.

[Dakoth]

I also feel the need to back Wiser on the rail mecca arguement. Even if they completely leveled Union staion why wouldn't people just disembark on the stop before and walk or take public transportation.

 

In case you can't tell what I am getting at is the scale of what you talk abotu is beyond any one terroist group, maybe if they all grouped together, but then if they were willing to do that why do we have so many seperate terroist organisations.

[chemchok]

Terrorists could cripple vital infrastructure through the internet, including dams, the electrical grid, ATMs, etc. Even if the event did not result in catastrophic physical damage it could easily cripple the US economy.

 

As could any number of Hackers if getting into heeps of trouble didn't bother them. The big problem with living in the computer age is it not. The question is how long would it take our government to get those things up and running again after the attack that is the question that needs to be answered. You need to remember there is no physical damage done to the infrastructure we would just lose control of it. If there was an extended period those grids were down lets say a month or more it would definately hurt the economy if they were back up and running in days what kind of effect would that have?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. You can cause physical damage to infrastructure through the internet. It is possible, and before you disagree with me, read through the second link I provided earlier. Is it probable? I leave that up to you.

 

2. The summer blackout of the Summer of 2003, which was caused by a freak accident of nature and human failure cost around 12$ billion in economic losses. That isn't chump change, and it wasn't a concerted effort, which brings me to point three.

 

Thats is if they could do any of those things in a conserted effort to hurt us.  Not something terrorism is know for.  Which is why 9-11 was such a shock because it was more of a military type attack than a terrorist attack.  It would be highly unlikely to see all of those things happen at one time which would be the only way they could through the US in to utter chaos.  There is Chemlocs wasy but as I said it would really depend on how fast the grid was brought back online.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

3. The 9/11 attack was not the first concerted attack on US interests by Al Qaeda. The attack that maimed the USS Cole was carefully planned out. The nearly simultaneous bombings of the US embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Tanzania were carefully planned.

 

It is foolish to think that 9/11 was some stroke of luck on Al Qaeda's part. They found, analyzed, and then exploited our weaknesses. There is no guarantee that this won't happen again. The least we can do is analyze these weaknesses and think creatively as to what is possible, just as they have done.

[Dakoth]

2. The summer blackout of the Summer of 2003, which was caused by a freak accident of nature and human failure cost around 12$ billion in economic losses. That isn't chump change, and it wasn't a concerted effort, which brings me to point three.

 

Was our whole nations infrastructure and economy destroyed or even severly hurt by this? This was my one and only point and again how long did it take to get the grid up and running again?

 

3. The 9/11 attack was not the first concerted attack on US interests by Al Qaeda. The attack that maimed the USS Cole was carefully planned out. The nearly simultaneous bombings of the US embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Tanzania were carefully planned.

 

I never said terroist attacks were not planned what I said was 9-11 was the first military type terrorist attack we had seen. If I remember correctly the embassies where hit by car bombs and the cole by a boat. While usually the effort of a celll the execution is usually done by one person. There were what 19 to 20 hijackers that positioned themselves in a militery fashion on key flights that moved with military like precision to hijack the planes and run them into the towers and the Pentagon very unterrorist like. That is the one thing I was trying to point out.

 

It is foolish to think that 9/11 was some stroke of luck on Al Qaeda's part. They found, analyzed, and then exploited our weaknesses. There is no guarantee that this won't happen again. The least we can do is analyze these weaknesses and think creatively as to what is possible, just as they have done.

 

I don't think it was luck I think the probability of them hurting more than our economy is highly unlikely. Could they hurt areas or take down the power grid yes most certainly, destroy our highways, byways, railsystem, and shipping enough to bring America to its knees very unlikely.

[Product of the Cosmos]

(interstate map)

As you can see. There are not many routes. And many points of pivitol nature. Although I seem to remember more Interstates in Cali. Maybe this site is obsolete.

 

Quote:

"However, one of the most important aspects of the Interstate Highways was their limited access. Although prior federal or state highways allowed, for the most part, any road to be connected to the highway, the Interstate Highways only allowed access from a limited number of controlled interchanges."

 

As you may know. A large river cuts Oregon and Washington(Columbia), there are a very limited number of bridges crossing this border. And they took many years to build.

[Dakoth]

(interstate map)

 

Please don't tell me you are naive enough to think interstates are the only way to get from state to state. What I am saying is they would need to detroy thousands of roads in many different states to cut one state off from another for you to think any different shows you know little of the road ways across the US.

 

"However, one of the most important aspects of the Interstate Highways was their limited access. Although prior federal or state highways allowed, for the most part, any road to be connected to the highway, the Interstate Highways only allowed access from a limited number of controlled interchanges."

 

 

Wonderful quoate but again how many miles of I-80 would have to be destroyed before it was not a viable route? They could bomb I-57 at any place and all I would need to know is where it happened so I could get off the exit before and enter the exit after you see where this is going.

 

As you may know. A large river cuts Oregon and Washington(Columbia), there are a very limited number of bridges crossing this border. And they took many years to build.

 

As a large river cuts between Illinois and Iowa but I-80 is only 1 of many crossings.

[chemchok]

1. No, our economy was not destroyed, though it was hurt. I don't think it is so farfetched to believe that something worse could happen if it was intentional and coordinated.

 

2. It doesn't matter if it's one person executing the attack or 19-20; the coordinated support that allows that one person to execute the plan is just as important as the attack itself. Al Qaeda has executed several military attacks. Read through Chapter 2 of the 9/11 Comission Report if you're interested.

 

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm

 

3. I never said Al Qaeda could bring America to it's knees; 9/11 certainly did not. But every economic blow they cause against the US is a victory for them.

 

- I hate to keep flinging links around left and right, but it's seems useless to restate something that is expressed so much clearer and with better understanding somewhere else. I think I've also passed my political post quota for the day, I'm bowing out of this conversation.

[Dakoth]

1. No, our economy was not destroyed, though it was hurt. I don't think it is so farfetched to believe that something worse could happen if it was intentional and coordinated.

 

I never argued the ability to do so I argue the probability of it happening. If they could have nocked out the powergrid on 9-11 think of the chaos that would have caused. Contrary to what some bekieve Osama is not a dumb man I think if it could have been done it would have as it would help an attack. I mean think about it most of the techniques we use ti try and thwart them are high tech and require power.

 

2. It doesn't matter if it's one person executing the attack or 19-20; the coordinated support that allows that one person to execute the plan is just as important as the attack itself. Al Qaeda has executed several military attacks. Read through Chapter 2 of the 9/11 Comission Report if you're interested.

 

Yes it does one man if caught ruins the whole operation. If you spread the opperation over more than one man the likely hood of it being carried out is increased. Although I will agree with the underlined portion of your statement. Lastly that is the exact reason they are more dangerous than say an islamic jihad type organisation.

 

3. I never said Al Qaeda could bring America to it's knees; 9/11 certainly did not. But every economic blow they cause against the US is a victory for them.

 

That was more meant for Product than you sorry about that.

[Product of the Cosmos]

"Please don't tell me you are naive enough to think interstates are the only way to get from state to state. What I am saying is they would need to detroy thousands of roads in many different states to cut one state off from another for you to think any different shows you know little of the road ways across the US."

 

I've traveled on Americas highways and Interstates more then most.

 

I just couldn't find an overview map of highways on the net. Yes there are many options. And many people use them all! With a huge one taken away, it would cause quite a big range of problems.

[Dakoth]

I've traveled on Americas highways and Interstates more then most.

 

So you knew that when you said it but thought I didn't so you thought you could bully me into agreeing with you?

 

 

I just couldn't find an overview map of highways on the net. Yes there are many options. And many people use them all! With a huge one taken away, it would cause quite a big range of problems.

 

So we are back to square one while people from both Oregon and Washington would be greatly put out life would go on would it not? It just might take a little longer to go about your buisness.

[taks]

what does any of this have to do with memogate?

taks

[Dakoth]

what does any of this have to do with memogate?

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It has turned more into a discussion of politics which really doesn't bother me. I think there should be a sticky thread for politics anyway I mean look at the number of threads here devoted to it.

[Product of the Cosmos]

lol. Like 97% of which get locked.

 

And life would go on in almost any scenario. But it sure would make it tough on many millions of people. You don't want to travel through 3 states to go 1 mile across a border...

[Weiser_Cain]

What are we driving, model t's?

[Dakoth]

lol. Like 97% of which get locked.

 

Normally for other reasons than the disscusion of politics.

 

You don't want to travel through 3 states to go 1 mile across a border...

 

Once again an over exageration.

['JN]

Incidents like these show how incredibly biased CBS really is, and how far all of the left-wing Bush haters will go to try and validate a document that is obviously false.

 

There is no excuse for unprofessional behavior like this, and I hope that Dan Rather is kicked off of the airwaves and that CBS is never heard from again.

['JN]

Attacking the interstate? What? Terrorists want to KILL us, not make it harder for us to get to work. Trying to "cripple" an interstate would be a waste of their time. A bridge would be a better target, but you have to remember that their resources are limited.

 

I would not use any underground tunnels in or out of New York city until after the election. Those are some of the most vulnerable and substantial targets available to them right now.

[Judge Hades]

I don't know about that. If you set explosives in the right sequence in a Mixmaster at the height of rush hour you can do a great deal of damage.

[Product of the Cosmos]

lol. Like 97% of which get locked.

 

Normally for other reasons than the disscusion of politics.

 

You don't want to travel through 3 states to go 1 mile across a border...

 

Once again an over exageration.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

To my knowledge theres only 5 bridges connecting Washington to Oregon, about 60-85% of the traffic goes on 2 of those bridges(both of which are always packed unless its like 2 am). If they took out only 3, this would devastate many people here. The traffic here is horrible as it is. I-5 bridge, 205 bridge, and a bridge up by Astoria, would really screw things up if take down.. For many months. If all 5 were taken out people would have to go through 3 states to get 1 mile across the Columbia, unless they had a way to get across the river. This is not an over exageration.

 

And whatever the terrorists have planned(if anything), they could have taken out somewhere around 20 million people on 9-11 with 1 plane. They still can. If all they wanted to do is kill Americans with no other motive involved they would have gone for the #1 threat to the US, and went for 20 million dead. But for some reason they went for the WTCs, even on 9-11, the hijacked plane flew directly over the #1 threat to America if hit by a terrorist attack...

[Volourn]

Ahh.. It was An Act of Mercy And Love that the WTC was hit. LOLOLOLOLLIPOP

[Product of the Cosmos]

I wouldn't call it mercy...

[Dakoth]

Ok As I count there are 12 seperate crossings of the columbia river. Thats not even counting the rail crossings and if local roads cross as it gets smaller. I also never counted any alternate travel like a river ferry, but I can't say that you have them so now you know why. There aren't a lot in your area but I already said it is not my fault you don't know the road ways.

 

Would it make travel in that area difficult oh hell yeah it would, would you need to travel to a third state to cross the river, I really can not see why as the Columbia takes a sharp turn at Wallula. So please tell me how that completely destroys either states infrastructure and isolates it from other states? You will still get the essencials of life, hell you will still get the luxuries it will just make travel between Oregon and Washington more difficult, and alternate plans will need to be worked out for the extrodinary events that took place.

[taks]

you're right, PoTC, 97% of your political threads DO get locked... ahem

 

taks

[Product of the Cosmos]

Ok As I count there are 12 seperate crossings of the columbia river.  Thats not even counting the rail crossings and if local roads cross as it gets smaller.  I also never counted any alternate travel like a river ferry, but I can't say that you have them so now you know why.  There aren't a lot in your area but I already said it is not my fault you don't know the road ways.

 

Would it make travel in that area difficult oh hell yeah it would, would you need to travel to a third state to cross the river, I really can not see why as the Columbia takes a sharp turn at Wallula.  So please tell me how that completely destroys either states infrastructure and isolates it from other states? You will still get the essencials of life, hell you will still get the luxuries it will just make travel between Oregon and Washington more difficult, and alternate plans will need to be worked out for the extrodinary events that took place.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

True it would be hard to cripple our infrastructure completely. Im tired of arguing something that is ridiculously vague and unprovable.

[Dakoth]

Product I am not saying it can't be done. What I am saying is it would be almost impossible for a country to do let alone a small terrorist organization. I do understand it would make life terribly difficult for the people of those states and it would suck to be in their shoes if it happened. I just feel you tend to over state things some times.