Judge Hades Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 How would the fact Revan can't be a force-less smuggler. After all the Council erased all momery he or she had of being Revan. He or she could simply turn his back on the force. It would have changed nothing in the story whatsoever. THe developer has the right to do set up the history of the character prior to the start of the game but once the game starts the character is mine. Setting governs the options available. Fallout is not in the Star Wars universe so it makes no sense to have a Jedi in Fallout such as it would make no sense to have a FEV super mutant in Star Wars. However it does make sense to the setting to have a Rodian Smuggler in the Star Wars universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofAnakin Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 The story would still have to be altered though. You couldn't have Malak as the end boss if Revan was just a smuggler. There is NO way a smuggler can defeat a Sith Lord. Han Solo was probably the greatest smuggler the SW universe has ever known, but how well did he do against Darth Vader with his blaster? Vader simply deflected his blaster bolt with his hand. The point of KOTOR is to defeat Malak and either a)save the galaxy or b)reclaim the mantle of Sith Lord. It's simply impossible to have done that with any realism if Revan was only a smuggler. "Console exclusive is such a harsh word." - Darque"Console exclusive is two words Darque." - Nartwak (in response to Darque's observation) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 I think you are underestimating non-Force users, Ghosty. Malak would be easily defeated by a non-force character, may it scoundrel, soldier, or scout even with Malak's cheese combat. Han SOlo was hardly the best scoundrel in the universe and Vader did caught him by surprise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofAnakin Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Technically, ANYTHING can occur. Hell, in the world of make believe, an Ewok could defeat the Emperor. But the point is, if you want any semblance of realism, Revan had to have Force powers in order to defeat Malak. ESPECIALLY for the DS ending to work. No Sith is going to pledge their allegiance to a Scoundrel as their new Sith Lord. "Console exclusive is such a harsh word." - Darque"Console exclusive is two words Darque." - Nartwak (in response to Darque's observation) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 That is why Bioware was short sided in their development of KotOR. There should have been 3 endings. LS Jedi DS Sith Neutral for a Revan who doesn't give a smeg one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofAnakin Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 So basically it goes back to you wanting them to re-write the main plot of the story. Which then goes with my arguement that Fallout should have catered for every possible character, including Jedi. "Console exclusive is such a harsh word." - Darque"Console exclusive is two words Darque." - Nartwak (in response to Darque's observation) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Jedis don't exist in the Fallout universe, that is why. Scoundrels do exist in the Star Wars universe. Gee, why is that such a hard concept for you to understand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Child of Flame Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 <cue Hades_One's ideal KotOR ending> Mission: So what are we gonna do today Revan, take down Malak perhaps? Revan: Nah Mission, I'm just gonna sit here with my bottle of Tarisian Ale, the rest of the galaxy can go to hell for all I care. Mission: But what if he comes after us and we're unprepared? Revan: He wouldn't bother, he's too busy taking over the galaxy. <Door Bursts open Sith Troopers march in> <Mission gets shot by blaster, does a death scream> Revan: OH SH!T!!! I HAVE NO POWERS!!! BOY I WISH I HAD CONTINUED MY JEDI TRAINING WHEN I HAD THE CHANCE!!! <Sith Trooper shoots Revan, Revan dies> Fin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofAnakin Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Jedis don't exist in the Fallout universe, that is why.Scoundrels do exist in the Star Wars universe. Gee, why is that such a hard concept for you to understand? Actually I do get that. I'm bringing it up because you're too stubborn and thickheaded to get the fact that what YOU want doesn't fit in the storyline of the KOTOR game. "Console exclusive is such a harsh word." - Darque"Console exclusive is two words Darque." - Nartwak (in response to Darque's observation) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 No, my Revan would have still hunted down malak and killed him. Besides he wasn't all that difficult of a kill for my DS or LS characters and I didn't even bother using any force powers. THe Republic only had one thing against it and that was bastilla. Once bastilla was removed, one way or another, the Republic fleet would have decimated the Star Forge and the Sith Fleet. There would be no reason for my Revan to even face malak in a fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Actually I do get that. I'm bringing it up because you're too stubborn and thickheaded to get the fact that what YOU want doesn't fit in the storyline of the KOTOR game. Bioware should have done a better job in writing the storyline of KotOR to allow all plausible actions within the scope of the game's setting. Don't put the blame on me due to Bioware's shoddy work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofAnakin Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Actually I do get that. I'm bringing it up because you're too stubborn and thickheaded to get the fact that what YOU want doesn't fit in the storyline of the KOTOR game. Bioware should have done a better job in writing the storyline of KotOR to allow all plausible actions within the scope of the game's setting. Don't put the blame on me due to Bioware's shoddy work. Uhh? the game was about Jedi fighting the Sith. Did you expect them to make an ending for every single possible creature/class in the entire Star Wars universe? Maybe they should have made a 4th ending so you could play as a Rancor monster. Or maybe a fifth for those who wanted to play as a Hutt. Just because the SW galaxy encompasses all different species, doesn't mean that THIS specific game has to. You played X-Wing. You said you liked it. You weren't able to play as a Jedi in X-Wing. You weren't able to fly the Millennium Falcon in X-Wing. So was that a flaw in the game design? No. For that specific game, it just didn't fit with the storyline. "Console exclusive is such a harsh word." - Darque"Console exclusive is two words Darque." - Nartwak (in response to Darque's observation) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 That is a Space Combat Sim and not a CRPG. In a Space Combat Sim choice is not a factor. In a CRPG choice is pinnacle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofAnakin Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 I give up. Go on trolling the forums. I'm done trying to reason logic with someone as closeminded as you. "Console exclusive is such a harsh word." - Darque"Console exclusive is two words Darque." - Nartwak (in response to Darque's observation) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 I know what I like in a CRPG and what I hate in a CRPG. What I hate most is playing the developer's character and forced to make my character in a certain way. If KotOR didn't have these two factors in it it could have been a contender for the best CRPG ever but it falls short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetallicFalcon Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Just to back up a little bit, when yall were talkin about pc's. I have... 500mhz. AMD k7 Athelon processor. 447 megs of crappy ram. some off the wall crappy compaq motherboard. Geforce fx 5200 256 meg. all of that plus a hard drive that only hold 14 gigs. Sound crappy? Make your system look good? I can still run KOTOR on the higest resolution, with other 2x range graphics options. it barely skips. Im gona stick with AMD for a LONG TIME. Next thing i get will be an AMD 64 ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakron Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Hades is right, it anoys me to no end some people are blinded to the fact we CAN have a Star Wars game without it resolving about Sith Vs Jedi ... as a matter of fact the OT was Rebels Vs Empire, the Force is part of the story and not the story itself. Same goes with SW:KotOR, it was Sith vs Republic and NOT Sith vs Jedi ... too bad people ignore it or simply dont see it. You can easly have a Star Wars game that does not resolves over the force and the fact many were done futher points that. Problem with current Star Wars games is that the "Jedi Sim" became far too much popular, years ago playing as a Jedi was something new as now its simply common. Hades alse points that SW:KotOR story COULD be done without forcing the Jedi path, we had Bastila as a option if it was so needed a force user to attack Malak but I guess people also rather ignore that little fact. Stop being such close minded fools that dont acept anything except Jedi vs Sith and play anything but a Jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderAndrew Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 I do believe the title of the game was Knights of the Old Republic. The KOTOR setting is Jedi vs Sith. The overall Star Wars setting is far more diverse. Hades said that setting dictates options, and he's fine with that. Well, setting in KOTOR dictated Jedi vs Sith. There you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 The setting of KotOR is Star Wars. KotOR is not a setting in of itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderAndrew Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 The settings of Star Wars (which largely suggests movie time-frame), NJO and KOTOR are vastly different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 There are space ships, aliens, the Force, and lightsabers. I don't see much difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderAndrew Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Well Star Trek deals with aliens and space-ships too. Those must be the same. Why couldn't I play as a Vulcan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofAnakin Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Hades is right, it anoys me to no end some people are blinded to the fact we CAN have a Star Wars game without it resolving about Sith Vs Jedi ... as a matter of fact the OT was Rebels Vs Empire, the Force is part of the story and not the story itself. Same goes with SW:KotOR, it was Sith vs Republic and NOT Sith vs Jedi ... too bad people ignore it or simply dont see it. You can easly have a Star Wars game that does not resolves over the force and the fact many were done futher points that. Problem with current Star Wars games is that the "Jedi Sim" became far too much popular, years ago playing as a Jedi was something new as now its simply common. Hades alse points that SW:KotOR story COULD be done without forcing the Jedi path, we had Bastila as a option if it was so needed a force user to attack Malak but I guess people also rather ignore that little fact. Stop being such close minded fools that dont acept anything except Jedi vs Sith and play anything but a Jedi. Rather ironic final statement there buddy. We're not the ones being close minded, Hades is. He insists that KOTOR sucks because he couldn't play as a character he wanted. He's the one that won't get it through his head that the game was intended as Jedi vs. Sith. I've already stated that the Star Wars universe itself isn't necessarily Jedi vs. Sith, but THIS SPECIFIC GAME was about that. I've said this countless times in different threads. I would LOVE to be able to play a character as Hades suggests. It WOULD give much more replay value. But at the same time, I seem to be able to grasp that in THIS game, in THIS context, the only viable choice was to make the PC a Jedi since the end boss and how the game is played out warranted it. The problem is he (and apparently you) are making the arguement that since the SW universe has all sorts of different characters, then every specific game should incorporate that. That's just not possible. The fact that he wants to play as a scoundrel isn't what I keep getting on his case about. The fact that he seems to not understand that in THIS specific storyline, it wouldn't work. "Console exclusive is such a harsh word." - Darque"Console exclusive is two words Darque." - Nartwak (in response to Darque's observation) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 How would the fact Revan can't be a force-less smuggler. After all the Council erased all momery he or she had of being Revan. He or she could simply turn his back on the force. It would have changed nothing in the story whatsoever. Korriban's level would likely have to been changed. I also would wager that a Scoundrel character would not have been able to complete the game. As for once the game being created the character being yours, the only games I can think of that actually do that are the Fallout games (but even still there are things that I would have liked to have done but cannot since we can only do what the developers program into the game), and I still contend that KOTOR still lets you build the character in your own way (although with not nearly the depth or variations as Fallout). But hey....look at the sales of Fallout versus KOTOR. People like you say that it's "pathetic" that people need to be spoon fed (which is arrogant), while at the same time it is easier to build a story around a character that isn't as free....and a lot of people love games with great storylines (which is why according to everyone but you PS:T is one of the greatest RPGs of all time). As for being upset about Knights of the Old Republic forcing you to be a Jedi....didn't you look into the game at all during the months prior to its release that let you know that the character would become a Jedi? To reiterate: freedom of development can be nice....but it is not the necessity that you make it out to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 If the story wasn't so narrow in the first place, which is a bad design in a CRPG, it wouldn't need a re-wrtie. You hold CRPGs to some benign standard that should never be strictly adhered to. Ultima VII is also one of my favourite games of all time, but there was no way you were getting out of being the Avatar. Interesting too...considering that games like Ultima are what created the term "CRPG." Sure you can argue that the earlier games had a bit more freedom (I only briefly played the first one), the earliest Ultima I had really played was Ultima IV, and considering it was the quest for the avatar. You have played one game that allows you to do what you want, but to hold other games to the same design principles is foolish. Furthermore, to claim that such "open-endedness" is a requirement for CRPGs shows narrowmindedness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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