Low level wizard/druid spells that scale well

[CeciliaPhoenix]

Out of curiosity,

which lower level wizard spells do you think scale particularly well, the damage ones? Also druid, but I only did tests on a lvl 20 multiclass wizard. The lvl 2 unique raw missile seems to be doing particulary well, and so does the lvl 1 missile simply because it cannot miss, but I'm not too happy about either the lvl 3 or lvl 4 missiles (target weird armor, and are higher level so don't get that many extra missiles) - not sure if they are actually scale up to be better than fireball/shadowflame. I guess the lvl 2 necrotic lance is also in a good spot due to double scaling, but also compete with the draining missile or the infamously good combusting wounds + miasma. 

Forgot to test - do wall of flame's individual hits do accuracy rolls/benefit from ring of flame? I slept on this spell, and it seems to be better than wall of force unless something is immune. 

Also, penetration scaling is...what it is. I still think that a blood mage multiclass with something that gives tenacious works competitively with a single class considering difficulty mods, extra sustain and penetration seems to be a huge benefit, especially if a single empowered high level ability does not solve problems (which is the case on podt upscaled++, like hardcore deadfire).  

At the end of the day, one big axe does the job better unless you use multihitting spells & combusting wounds, or there's enough enemies to use a shadowflame or something like that (I'm really unsure what the devs were thinking about spell penetration & its scaling, getting value out of spells requires a lot more minmaxing than weapons, especially on higher difficulties)

Edited April 2 by CeciliaPhoenix

[Boeroer]

In general, abilities which deal damage and also have a duration (DoT or pulsing spells mostly) scale best - because not only the damage per tick/pulse goes up but also the duration/number of ticks. 

Also low level spells with already high base damage scale pretty well. One example is White Worms (Chanter). It's cheap yet has great base damage and AoE size. The only drawback is that you need a corpse to cast it on, but that can be circumvented with Ancient Brittle Bones or Many Lives Pass By (both leaving skeleton corpses).

 

Edited April 2 by Boeroer

[Chaospread]

19 hours ago, CeciliaPhoenix said:

Also druid,

Yep, not tested but i think following spells can scale well.

1. Sunbeam: good damage, long range, roll against reflex can be convenient, fire keywords (good for bonus, i.e. fire ring), fire damage, also Blind duration that scales with levels;

2. Touch of Rot: good damage, DoT (as @Boeroer said), corrode damage;

3. Autumn's Decay: same as Touch of Rot, but with less (anyway good) DoT damage, but greater penetration, cone AoE but good range that extends with levels;

4. Insect Swarm: raw damage and DoT, long range, good side effects (remove concentration), Beast keyword can be convient for bonuses;

5. Returning Storm: shock damage, more penetration, great extensible with levels side effects (stunned), many keywords = more chances for bonuses;

6. Infestation of Maggots: raw damage and DoT, quite long range.

Range isn't affected by levels IIRC, but long range is always a good thing.

I suppose spells above third level don't scale so much, best scaling is obviously for the first three layers of spells.

20 hours ago, CeciliaPhoenix said:

Also, penetration scaling is...what it is.

20 hours ago, CeciliaPhoenix said:

extra sustain and penetration seems to be a huge benefit

20 hours ago, CeciliaPhoenix said:

I'm really unsure what the devs were thinking about spell penetration & its scaling

Yes, indeed. Power level scaling can do something, and if you stack many bonus it DOES good thing, but it is not always possible, thus the best things you can do (besides tenacious, and debuff foes' armor) are improving ACC and (better on hard, PotD etc...) hits to crits chances for crits (+50% PEN),  eating Crusted Swordfish (+2 PEN for spells) and of course choosing the best damage type.

Maybe do Ciphers' Driving Echoes work with spells?

[Constentin Lévine]

1 hour ago, Chaospread said:

Maybe do Ciphers' Driving Echoes work with spells?

Yes it does, and there is also The Shield Cracks (chanter) for -2 AR, Flancked for -1 , Lower their Gard (fighter) for -10 and Sundering Blow for -4, for the enemy. The Blackened plate grant also an aura that cause -1 AR and the Furrante's Breastplate have a per rest version of Lower their Gard if i remember correctely..

[CeciliaPhoenix]

Another full random thing I found while testing an old save with a barbarian MC, I guess you guys have figured out already a long time ago, but I didn't realize - the bolting strikes from Lord Daryn's Voulge stack with everything since its an item bonus. Possibly even two monk lightning strikes at the same time? But it does stack with all the barb stuff for sure (also it was a low level save, lvl 13 in the undercity, and I accidentally left hardcore mod scaling on - a skeleton rogue almost 1v1'd my MC, I'm impressed). 

Edited Friday at 11:54 PM by CeciliaPhoenix

[Constentin Lévine]

17 hours ago, CeciliaPhoenix said:

Another full random thing I found while testing an old save with a barbarian MC, I guess you guys have figured out already a long time ago, but I didn't realize - the bolting strikes from Lord Daryn's Voulge stack with everything since its an item bonus. Possibly even two monk lightning strikes at the same time? But it does stack with all the barb stuff for sure (also it was a low level save, lvl 13 in the undercity, and I accidentally left hardcore mod scaling on - a skeleton rogue almost 1v1'd my MC, I'm impressed). 

Different effects are applied with this weapon on carnage attack, and each can proc a lightning from Avenging Storm. This is the only weapon that can interract with carnage, the only malus is the enchantment limited to Superb..

[CeciliaPhoenix]

On 4/5/2025 at 7:20 PM, Constentin Lévine said:

Different effects are applied with this weapon on carnage attack, and each can proc a lightning from Avenging Storm. This is the only weapon that can interract with carnage, the only malus is the enchantment limited to Superb..

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I'm more and more excited about Warlock or Tempest, even though I know that Barb isn't exactly the best class in the game. But it has some interesting kit & weapons to build around. 

[thelee]

On 4/2/2025 at 12:59 PM, CeciliaPhoenix said:

Forgot to test - do wall of flame's individual hits do accuracy rolls/benefit from ring of flame? I slept on this spell, and it seems to be better than wall of force unless something is immune. 

the wall spells are "hazard" effects, which are real weird. (there are a few other hazard effects--like priest seals [not the symbols]--but the walls are the most obvious)

they remember some of your stats and buffs, but not all... and IIRC ring of focused flame is not one of them. in general they remember your stats and your level (for accuracy purposes and i'm somewhat sure for PL scaling purposes), but everything else is a hodge podge that probably doesn't work or partially works. (For example, assassin's assassinate bonus applies the accuracy bonus... but not the crit or PEN bonus. also doesn't break invisibility)

 

edit to add: they also remember being empowered. but because they are disconnected from you, IIRC they don't benefit from the various empower talents, nor do you trigger things like least unstable coil. 

also, yeah wall of flame is pretty good, much more damage than thorns or force. 5-8 damage every second is 15-24 damage per tick (or 30-48 damage per turn/per step of movement in turn based). not shabby. not a good spell for AI to use against you because it's easy for you to step away, but against enemies taht just stand there in melee engagement, it'll rack up lots of damage.

Edited 15 hours ago by thelee

[Boeroer]

Iirc Wall spells break invisibility of Smoke Veil and Shadowing Beyond but not Arkemyr's Brilliant Departure. 

And yeah: they are a total mess.

Like half stationary summons, half pulsing spells. I really don't know why.

Imo mechanically there is no reason why they couldn't be implemented like all the other pulsing spells (just not with a circular AoE but a line - and 1 sec pulses instead of 3 secs). 

[thelee]

12 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Iirc Wall spells break invisibility of Smoke Veil and Shadowing Beyond but not Arkemyr's Brilliant Departure. 

if you have the wall up before you go invisible, then you'll stay invisible the entire time. the only thing that breaks from hazard effects triggering is normal stealth.

 

12 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Imo mechanically there is no reason why they couldn't be implemented like all the other pulsing spells (just not with a circular AoE but a line - and 1 sec pulses instead of 3 secs). 

turn-based mode makes the mechanical difference more obvious - for normal AoEs you can run in and out of them during your turn without getting hit, regardless of tick frequency or timing. with hazards, you trigger their effects as soon as you enter their zone, and for each step (making wall spells stupidly good in TB mode because the hazard damage is 6x-ed for TB mode adjustment, even for the per-step damage). but it's a very subtle difference in RTwP honestly, I don't imagine many people are optimizing for this difference, and RTwP came first anyway so it's not like they had this in mind.

[Boeroer]

47 minutes ago, thelee said:

if you have the wall up before you go invisible, then you'll stay invisible the entire time. the only thing that breaks from hazard effects triggering is normal stealth.

Wow, I didn't know that.