Gaza - War does not determine who is right - only who is left

[Malcador]

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-gaza-war-08-26-2025-0f1be1b4e3231e0cbec54ce837cc6af9

Not their best excuse.

[Malcador]

https://www.ajiunit.com/article/what-did-al-jazeeras-investigation-into-israeli-war-crimes-in-gaza-reveal/

Is from AJ, so take it as you will

[Malcador]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/sep/12/israeli-ex-commander-confirms-palestinian-casualties-are-more-than-200000

"The retired general told a community meeting in southern Israel earlier this week that more than 10% of Gaza’s 2.2 million population had been killed or injured – “more than 200,000 people”. That estimate is notable as it is close to the current figures provided by Gaza’s health ministry, which Israeli officials have frequently dismissed as Hamas propaganda, though the ministry figures have been deemed reliable by international humanitarian agencies."

 

[BruceVC]

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/09/25/politics/trump-says-he-wont-allow-israel-to-annex-west-bank 

 

Trump has unequivocally stated that Israel wont be allowed to annex the West Bank

This is not a surprise as this would destroy any idea of a 2 state solution and a permanent solution around peace in  this conflict that the US is involved in

“I will not allow Israel to annex the West Bank. Nope, I will not allow it. It’s not going to happen,” Trump said in the Oval Office, acknowledging that he had spoken to Netanyahu earlier in the day on the topic.

“It’s been enough. It’s time to stop now,” he added.

[Malcador]

The people of the West Bank can trust him, surely.

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, Malcador said:

The people of the West Bank can trust him, surely.

We can  trust Trumps hubris and him wanting to take credit for ending this interminable ME conflict 

If Israel annexes the West Bank there will never  be a  peace agreement because what would the Palestinians have?

[Malcador]

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/read-trumps-20-point-proposal-to-end-the-war-in-gaza

"Gaza will be governed under the temporary transitional governance of a technocratic, apolitical Palestinian committee, responsible for delivering the day-to-day running of public services and municipalities for the people in Gaza. This committee will be made up of qualified Palestinians and international experts, with oversight and supervision by a new international transitional body, the “Board of Peace,” which will be headed and chaired by President Donald J. Trump, with other members and heads of State to be announced, including Former Prime Minister Tony Blair. This body will set the framework and handle the funding for the redevelopment of Gaza until such time as the Palestinian Authority has completed its reform program, as outlined in various proposals, including President Trump’s peace plan in 2020 and the Saudi-French proposal, and can securely and effectively take back control of Gaza. This body will call on best international standards to create modern and efficient governance that serves the people of Gaza and is conducive to attracting investment."

 

[majestic]

So, King Donald I of Gaza just in case he can't quite make it as Donald I Whitehouse?  

[Zoraptor]

First Palestinian member of the committee has been announced: Vidkun al Quisling.

May pair up nicely with Bezazel Smotrich, Itamar Ben Gvir, Benjamin Netanyahu and Tony Blair. Only caveat is that he may be a bit too liberal and namby pamby.

[BruceVC]

9 hours ago, Malcador said:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/read-trumps-20-point-proposal-to-end-the-war-in-gaza

"Gaza will be governed under the temporary transitional governance of a technocratic, apolitical Palestinian committee, responsible for delivering the day-to-day running of public services and municipalities for the people in Gaza. This committee will be made up of qualified Palestinians and international experts, with oversight and supervision by a new international transitional body, the “Board of Peace,” which will be headed and chaired by President Donald J. Trump, with other members and heads of State to be announced, including Former Prime Minister Tony Blair. This body will set the framework and handle the funding for the redevelopment of Gaza until such time as the Palestinian Authority has completed its reform program, as outlined in various proposals, including President Trump’s peace plan in 2020 and the Saudi-French proposal, and can securely and effectively take back control of Gaza. This body will call on best international standards to create modern and efficient governance that serves the people of Gaza and is conducive to attracting investment."

 

The 20 points are very interesting and most seem achievable and require concessions on both sides

Biggest hurdles are Hamas and the Israeli Far right ministers in Netanyahu's coalition accepting it

Most of the Arab world are behind it and clearly a lot of meetings have been going on behind the scenes

Its the best plan I have heard for ages unless someone can post another one 

I wouldnt worry about this specific point too much, the relevant ones would be these and some of  these are not what Netanyahu has always stated which was the complete destruction of Hamas and then plans to annex Gaza. As I mentioned Israel is going to have to concede a lot as well

 

• Gaza will be redeveloped for the benefit of the people of Gaza, who have suffered more than enough.
• Once all hostages are returned, Hamas members who commit to peaceful co-existence and to decommission their weapons will be given amnesty. Members of Hamas who wish to leave Gaza will be provided safe passage to receiving countries.
• Upon acceptance of this agreement, full aid will be immediately sent into the Gaza Strip. At a minimum, aid quantities will be consistent with what was included in the January 19, 2025, agreement regarding humanitarian aid, including rehabilitation of infrastructure (water, electricity, sewage), rehabilitation of hospitals and bakeries, and entry of necessary equipment to remove rubble and open roads.
• Entry of distribution and aid in the Gaza Strip will proceed without interference from the two parties through the United Nations and its agencies, and the Red Crescent, in addition to other international institutions not associated in any manner with either party. Opening the Rafah crossing in both directions will be subject to the same mechanism implemented under the January 19, 2025 agreement.
• No one will be forced to leave Gaza, and those who wish to leave will be free to do so and free to return. We will encourage people to stay and offer them the opportunity to build a better Gaza.

 

 

[Zoraptor]

Yeah, and what happens when Israel decides to abrogate the agreement. No conditional, it will happen, you just have to look at the WB for that. If you're not willing to punish Israel for genocide you're not going to punish them for anything, and that makes any agreement with them that does not involve them also being Forced to abide by the terms utterly worthless. That also means it costs Netanyahu literally literally nothing to accept, since he will not be bound by it anyway.

It's also hilariously badly written. Even for something that sprang (partly*) from the same mind as covfefe and injecting bleach to cure covid. To whit:

Quote

3. If both sides agree to this proposal, the war will immediately end. Israeli forces will withdraw to the agreed upon line to prepare for a hostage release. During this time, all military operations, including aerial and artillery bombardment, will be suspended, and battle lines will remain frozen until conditions are met for the complete staged withdrawal.

So, are they withdrawing to the agreed upon line or are the battle lines frozen? Can't even stay consistent within the same point let alone between points. 

I wonder if the remains of orthopaedic surgeon Adnan al Bursh will be one of those dead Gazan remains released, more than a year after Israel said it would. One suspects, given that he was tortured to death, that his body has been 'accidentally' lost.

*The Arab+Turkey statement is a lot more equivocal than presented in the press. Strip away the ego massage of Trump and there's very little to it. That's because you can very easily see which points they added, and which points are going to be systematically ignored by Israel with the tacit support of those pathetic western genocide apologists Starmer, Merz, Luxon and pals; and with the active support of Trump.

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Yeah, and what happens when Israel decides to abrogate the agreement. No conditional, it will happen, you just have to look at the WB for that. If you're not willing to punish Israel for genocide you're not going to punish them for anything, and that makes any agreement with them that does not involve them also being Forced to abide by the terms utterly worthless. That also means it costs Netanyahu literally literally nothing to accept, since he will not be bound by it anyway.

It's also hilariously badly written. Even for something that sprang (partly*) from the same mind as covfefe and injecting bleach to cure covid. To whit:

So, are they withdrawing to the agreed upon line or are the battle lines frozen? Can't even stay consistent within the same point let alone between points. 

I wonder if the remains of orthopaedic surgeon Adnan al Bursh will be one of those dead Gazan remains released, more than a year after Israel said it would. One suspects, given that he was tortured to death, that his body has been 'accidentally' lost.

*The Arab+Turkey statement is a lot more equivocal than presented in the press. Strip away the ego massage of Trump and there's very little to it. That's because you can very easily see which points they added, and which points are going to be systematically ignored by Israel with the tacit support of those pathetic western genocide apologists Starmer, Merz, Luxon and pals; and with the active support of Trump.

The wording of some of the points is  not  really the point, that just seems a silly criticism considering the intention of the plan

The main countries in the region and the world are behind it and at least its a plan that Israel has agreed to

As predicted Israeli far right ministers are not happy 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/9/29/trumps-gaza-peace-plan-welcomed-by-arab-and-islamic-countries-the-west

" Smotrich slammed the plan and referred to it as a “resounding diplomatic failure, a closing of eyes and turning our backs on all the lessons of October 7”.

“Given the reality that has emerged in the face of international pressure, the destructive hostage campaign, Prime Minister Netanyahu’s initial unwillingness to conquer Gaza and adopt Trump’s original plan, the military foot-dragging and lack of success in bringing the military leadership to where we want, the faltering coalition, and the natural exhaustion after two years of war – given all this, is there no choice, and is this the maximum that can be achieved right now,” Smotrich wrote on X.

“These are good questions. We will consult, consider, and decide, with God’s help. But the celebrations since yesterday are simply absurd,” he added. "

Hamas needs to agree to it but they are diplomatically isolated around this if they dont agree

I want to see both sides start implementing the first steps before I will judge its success or failures 

 

 

 

 

 

[Malcador]

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

The wording of some of the points is  not  really the point, that just seems a silly criticism considering the intention of the plan

Wording does matter, or at least it should, is why time is spent hammering it out. 

Just wondering how the somehow legitimate Board of Peace (****ing mesh back naming) is going to enrich themselves off this

[Zoraptor]

The problem with the wording is really, really obvious. Though to be fair it isn't just Bruce burying their head in the sand about it. That clause is part of the first step which is meant to be implemented- hostage release- and it is not crystal clear about what is required when it has to be absolutely clear.

Hamas will obviously read its intent as requiring a withdrawal, Israel will obviously read it as not requiring a withdrawal; and both will be right/ wrong, because it says both. Yet you cannot do both. So from the get go one side or the other will view the other as breaking the agreement. The net effect- and one suspects it's by design- is telling Hamas to give up their leverage for nothing except maybe some prisoners. And Israel can always administratively detain, ie kidnap*, more people later.

The wording might not be a problem if the sides had trust, or there was an enforcement mechanism for Israel but as it stands it's set up to fail at the first hurdle and ideally- for the west and Israel- immediately after Hamas releases the hostages.

*83% civilian, by Israel's own leaked stats.

5 hours ago, Malcador said:

Just wondering how the somehow legitimate Board of Peace (****ing mesh back naming) is going to enrich themselves off this

This is basically the Iraqi Provisional Authority/ Afghan Interim Administration of Gaza, and they had no problem enriching themselves or their supporters. Massive fees, no bid contracts for overpriced infrastructure projects (completion, optional), large wadges of dosh disappearing off into the ether, huge payments to Erik Prince's mercenaries for security. Just replace mineral concessions with selling beach real estate so Don and Bibi can sunbathe there without the AI generation. 

Edited 1 hour ago by Zoraptor