WotEP Brawler (Devoted/Helwalker) First build, any tips or suggestion for a next one

[Lapinouple]

Hey guys, I've been playing deadfire a little (never actually finished the game but I love to test other person's builds and with Berath's Blessing it became even more a Sandbox for me) and for this one I wanted to try play around WotEP because
- it's convenient, you can get it on the first trip to Neketaka for almost nothing
- with Blade Form enchant you get 20% recovery time which I love in videogames, attack speed based char/builds are fun to me
- the weapon is cool
I'm not much of a spellcaster and mage/priest/druid/bard trees are a pain to learn (I'm slowly getting used to priest and bard ones as they are so good as supports) so I went for a (auto)attack centered build but I feel like not everything is making synergies as I expected and as I am pretty new to this I do not know if I am focusing the right stats/bonuses or if there is a more optimised way to build it (for exemple the stats, should I dump some and max the others or is there a holy balance to reach)

I play in the latest Update (v5.xx i think) with community patch in PotD (haven't tried Upscale yet, how does it feel like ?)
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Class: Devoted/Helwalker

Monk was a natural choice for Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming because another thing I like to build in games are Procs on hit (which pairs with attack speed) and especially multi hit ones (it comes from world of warcraft Shaman's Windfurry). Helwalker because of the free stats
Devoted because I told myself I had to play around WotEP +1 Pen
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Race: Elf
Background: Deadfire - Explorer
Stats: (Base + origin)
MIG: 18
CON: 9
DEX: 19
PER: 19
INT: 7 (I do have doubt about it because it is compensed by Turning wheel but a bigger AoE could be nice for WotEP)
RES: 7

All in Athletics and History (Healing and Giftbearer's cloth defense scaling)

I wanted attack speed and crits for a lot of Swift Flurry/ Heartbeat Drumming procs (and obviously damages because WotEP seemed a little bit weaker on this side)
went full on with Berath's blessings because I wanted to have fun quickly and go through Port Maje so +2 to all here

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Weapon : WotEP (Blade Form for the sweet sweet attack speed - Run Through for some solo target burst per encounter)
Head : Helm of the Falcon (-10% recovery)
Amulet : Bone Setter's Torc (5% Hit->Crit with weapons)/Necklace of the Harvest Moon (-5% recovery time on Crit)
Armor : Devil of Caroc Breastplate (Devil's due for healing on crit)
Cloak : The Giftbearer's Cloth (lot of defence for free)
Gloves : Aegor's Swift Touch (+1 DEX, +5% action speed with weapons)/Gatecrashers (+1 MIG, 15% knock down on crits)
Boots : Pathfinder's Boots (+1 DEX, +1 Athletics)
Ring 1 : Ring of Prosperity's Fortune (15% Hit->Crit with enough money)
Ring 2 : Chameleon's Touch (free stats)
Belt : The Undying Burden (another Second Wind)
Pet (watcher) : Pes (+10% melee damage, +5% Hit->Crit for the party)
Pet (Eder) : Anything with +5% Hit->Crit for the party

I choose most of the items because it could can be obtained pretty early and cheap/free to spend all my Berath's Blessing money in enchanting WotEP into Mythic

Devil of Caroc can be stolen pretty early with lockpicking and stealth, nice legendary armor with healing
Giftbearer's cloth can be aquired early too with a bit of stealth and Bounding boots (so right after Fort Deadlight)
 

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Talents

Global passives
Two-Handed style (15% damage)
Uncanny Luck (5% Hit-> Crit)
Improved Critical (10% crit damage)

Monk abilities
Swift Flurry (33% multi hit on Crit, Bonus attack speed)
Enduring Dance (bonus Acc)
Thunderous blows (+5 MIG, +2 Pen)
Stunning Surge (idk if it works with WotEP AoE but a free stun on crits is cool)
Turning Wheel (+20% burning damage, 10 INT)
Flagellant's Path (Gap closer)

Monk passives
Enervating Blows (Weakened on crit)
Heartbeat Drumming (25% multi hit on Crit)

Fighter abilities
Disciplined Strikes (25% Hit->Cri, +5 PER)
Mob Stance (-5% Recovery per nearby ennemi, Full attack AoE on kill)/ Warrior Stance for single target (+5 accuracy)

Fighter passives
Rapid Recovery (healing)
Weapon specialisation + Weapon mastery (+15% damage, +5 accuracy)
Armored Grace (-25% Armor recovery penalty)

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Party
Eder (Swashbuckler) engaging the most ennemies possible
Xoti (Priest) spamming heals, buffs and resurect Xoti's Lantern (Threshing aura +7%damage (shouldn't have pushed her to the dark path, she is so much happier on the light one, I selfishly wanted to max damage))
Maia (Scout) Ranged dps machine
Custom (Herald because Pallegina is unbearable with the others) cool buffs, drake invocation and Exalted Focus (+5% Hit->Crit, +5 Accuracy)

Basically Eder is a magnet in melee, Xoti and not-Pallegina are casting what the base AI want them to cast or firing (Scordeo's Trophy + Lantern for little Xoti and Spearcaster for the mute Herald) Maia is shooting things with any arquebus (with the bounce ranger passive its hilarious)
while I cast all the boost I have and either Flagellant Path in the backline to Impale a high priority target if there is one or run around the clump of ennemies Eder managed to lock in place and swing the most ennemies I can (brittle ones if possible to proc Mob Stance) to stack WotEP's Blade Form and wounds and see the stats grow

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What it looks like in numbers

Currently lvl 19 (may or may not end the scenario and/or try the "mega bosses" as it seem to be the real challenge in the game)

MIG: 36 (Thunderous Blows, Helwalker wounds)
CON: 11
DEX: 25
PER: 26 (Disciplined Strike)
INT: 19 (Turning Wheel wounds)
RES: 10

50% Hit->Crit (maxed if the Herald is not too far away) Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming proc pretty often (coupled with the low Recovery Time) but not as much as another build I tried (Voltron's Votary with Magran's favor and Sun and Moon (striped of all the Sacred Immolation side of the build to get more accuracy/Hit->Crit conversion) which is still feeling nice (with party) and chain-proccing quite often)

118 Accuracy (108 with Great Sword proficiency) (+12 with Enduring Dance but it doesn't stay very long)

17 Pen

1.9 Recovery time (WotEP full stacked, some ennemies around for Mob Stance, Swift Flurry) which seems absurd for a 2H weapon but I really feel like old school wow Shaman trying to swing a 2H hammer to proc a Windfurry and OS someone

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For now it is pretty fun to play (for me), I may be breaking the progression curve with Mythic WotEP out of Port Maje but I wanted this run to feel like a Sandbox so idk how viable it is for a "legit" one, tell me if I'm building something wrong here, expecting a synergy where there isn't one, if you would change something (better class, better stuff (even if you change my lovely WotEP)), or if you have a fun build for me to try in the next run !

When I'm done toying with this one, I might try another build, making a definitive (for now) run and sweep the map, maybe upscale ? (if it is worth the try), maybe solo ? (i like the xp boost and the challenge but the game feels so lonely and it is too bad not to use the party's skills), maybe a custom party ?(love the flavour of a paladin company or anything like that but again, not having Eder trying to touch every animal, Xoti being amazed by everything in the Archipelago or any other companion makes me sad), maybe having a party with Pallegina in ? (but I don't like siding with slavers or her being mean to everyone else so.. we'll see for this one)

I haven't played PoE1 much because deadfire felt much smoother to the touch (and to build) in the first hours of gameplay but it also made me love Eora so I might do it, if you have any fun char or advices for it, i'm totally open for it

Thanks for reading and have a good day wherever you are in Eora

 

 

 

[dgray62]

WotEP can be fun weapon, but I prefer it for tankier builds, like an steel garrote arcane knight or steel garrote/trickster Holy Slayer. With high DEF the Offensive Parry upgrade is really amazing, since it gives you a free attack whenever you're missed and also dazes the foe, which is great fro SG paladins and rogues. It's also a good weapon in the hands of a soul blade, since you can affect multiple enemies with soul annihilation. For a devoted/helwalker, I'd go with axes or spears. Mohora Tanga is an amazing spear in the hands of a monk (as discussed in this thread). Axes are always a great choice too. Since you have high STR you can wield Amra which is great against mobs. When taking on tougher foes, you can wield Magran's Favor and Tuotilo's Palm for extra defense. And fists are always be great for a devoted brute, since unarmed gets the devoted perks as well as your weapon of choice.

[Lapinouple]

Yes ! I’ve read a few posts about Offensive Parry and it looked quite strong, I wanted to have a more active use of it so I tried to build around Blade Form.

I really liked the Nomad’s Brigandine immunity to disengagement + running around ennemies, but I might build a Swashbuckler Eder around a high def one to see it in action

Mohora tanga self-proccing is mindblowing, might test it but not make a whole run with it, maybe feels like too much to me

Amra seems fun ! a 2H one handed weapon looks fun and unique (I miss the possibility to dual wield 2H weapons like in some games, its a fun concept too), could build nice attack speed and big hits with the frenzy proc

Didnt know devoted bonus was active for fists, its cool for secondary set of weapons but for main weapon i think SC monk is better as it seems as popular as it is powerful

Thanks for the suggestions ! 

[limaxophobiacq]

Does community patch nerf unbending? Otherwise not stacking Int for the crazy heals on a Turning Wheel user feels like it can't be right.

Since you're using The Undying Burden and you say you're all in on Athletics you might want to try Contenders Armor which would let you attack even faster (up to -28% recovery instead of the -10% from Caroc) but you lose out on heal and +2 power pool. 

As for pets Blinky for +5 melee accuracy on whole party would be more effective than a +melee damage or hit-to-crit but is very late game.

[Lapinouple]

Nope Unbending proudly bears its name and isn't even bent by the community patch, you are describing it as crazy but 25(or 33)% healing on received damage equals roughly to 25(or 33)% max life doesn't it ? stacking INT to have a longer uptime on this buff (and so to max the amount of those 25% or 33% you get)  may not be worth on itself

I considered INT stacking (to go to crazy amount with Turning Wheel) but it didn't feel as good as stacking MIG DEX or PER, but I might reconsider  it because its more comfortable as I have that much buffs (making Caroc Breastplate less painful to drop as I'll need a smaller power pool) and to get bigger swings of WotEP. It's just not totaly clear for me how to weigh each stat and which to stack or to balance !

The Contenders Armor is definetly better offensively, I'll take it as I like to go glass cannon ! I took Devil of Caroc Breastplate here because it is overall good (and obtainable quite early) and I didn't take the time to check the enchants on all the armors/weapons yet, (and I haven't done the extensions nor checked its items, except for the Deck of Many Things) so I only have a vague idea of what each of those do and what is its potential

Also right about the +Acc better to get crits if ACC is higher than DEF, I was so lazy that I asked here but you made me do the math, an additionnal 5% hit->crit roll only increase the conversion chances from ~48% to ~50% on hit (the conversion of all the other effects) so like 1% crit chance added while +5ACC adds 5% crit chance (If I get the attack system right and if I'm not too rusted in probability) tell me if I get something wrong here !

Thank you for the advices !

[Shai Hulud]

7 hours ago, Lapinouple said:

Nope Unbending proudly bears its name and isn't even bent by the community patch, you are describing it as crazy but 25(or 33)% healing on received damage equals roughly to 25(or 33)% max life doesn't it ? stacking INT to have a longer uptime on this buff (and so to max the amount of those 25% or 33% you get)  may not be worth on itself

I considered INT stacking (to go to crazy amount with Turning Wheel) but it didn't feel as good as stacking MIG DEX or PER, but I might reconsider  it because its more comfortable as I have that much buffs (making Caroc Breastplate less painful to drop as I'll need a smaller power pool) and to get bigger swings of WotEP. It's just not totaly clear for me how to weigh each stat and which to stack or to balance !

The Contenders Armor is definetly better offensively, I'll take it as I like to go glass cannon ! I took Devil of Caroc Breastplate here because it is overall good (and obtainable quite early) and I didn't take the time to check the enchants on all the armors/weapons yet, (and I haven't done the extensions nor checked its items, except for the Deck of Many Things) so I only have a vague idea of what each of those do and what is its potential

Also right about the +Acc better to get crits if ACC is higher than DEF, I was so lazy that I asked here but you made me do the math, an additionnal 5% hit->crit roll only increase the conversion chances from ~48% to ~50% on hit (the conversion of all the other effects) so like 1% crit chance added while +5ACC adds 5% crit chance (If I get the attack system right and if I'm not too rusted in probability) tell me if I get something wrong here !

Thank you for the advices !

The crazy thing about unending is it stacks with itself every time you're hit during the duration, so long duration allows you to get enough stacks that unbending is massively healing you rather just limiting damage. You may have seen this before when fighting bad guys who cast unbending trunk and become impossible to kill until the duration runs out.

MIG is overrated and DEX is good but doesn't need to be maxed. I max INT for every single build ever, except forbidden fists because it extends the curse too much. But even on martials high INT is super useful as your buffs can last over twice their stated duration. Like you can keep up Disciplined Barrage and Refreshing Defense, Swift Flurry etc. with fewer resources. Also abilities like Clear Out have much larger AOE, Stunning Surge will stun longer. Also will is a very important defense and if you dump resolve and int both your will is going to be lacking.

Since you're helwalker I would dump might a bit. I would have taken something like this spread (use turning wheel)

MIG 8
CON 12
DEX 15
PER 20
INT 18
RES 3

Basically you want max PER so you can hit things, you want max INT so your buffs and debuffs last longer as well as larger AOE. You get more damage from pumping PER vs MIG because you'll crit more. Dex over MIG because attacking faster scales better than hitting a little harder, especially since even with 35 might your might damage bonus is "only" 75%, which is a lot but mythical weapon bonus is about that much, and there are other +damage sources. I made a ranger with 12 might that had +139% damage. Other stats, CON you want as low as you can get it without quickly dying. In this case we don't need a lot because of unbending, devil of caroc healing etc. (plus you can have huge healing modifiers with dawnstar blessing). Resolve can usually be dumped. It is just too expensive for 1 deflection per resolve, the other stats you tend to get more out of them, and there are other ways to improve deflection if you need them like refreshing defense, bracers of greater deflection, etc. So this leaves DEX, and we want DEX fairly high but there are diminishing returns on action speed for super high dex, so you have a modified dex of 25, which in practice is not much better than a modified dex of say 22. (Try attributescore player(press tab) dexterity X in the console and you can see how your attack speed changes.

To sum up, my approach to stats is like this: Max PER and INT for nearly every build. Dump resolve with some exceptions. With what's left, spread between might and CON so they add to roughly 18 to 22, and put the rest in DEX, which should be somewhere from 12 to 17 after tuning might/con. If you weren't a helwalker but say nalpazca then you don't need CON much and need more might, so I'd do something like 13/8/14/20/18/3

And fists are much better than WOTEP IMO. You get huge accuracy and damage bonuses and they have good penetration (especially single class monk, and super especially forbidden fist attack). Fists also are fast attacks and crushing is the best damage type, hardly anything is immune to it. And devoted bonus applies to fists as well as great sword or whatever you chose. Most of your equipment choices are fine, though keep charm of bones handy when fighting vesssels, and for helmet horns of the bleak mother, cap of the laughingstock are both super useful. The second is more useful solo since you won't be debuffing allies. 

If you liked playing as a monk there are some monk builds that are extremely good solo. So far I've only found two builds that can solo all the content in POTD upscaled without cheese strategies, a SC FF monk and a FF / soul blade. They're both a lot of fun. Various blood mage and blood mage / X can do it but relies a lot on making yourself immortal with potions of final stand and wall of draining, which is kinda too easy IMO. And various tactician multiclass builds can do it but relies on the game thinking when you're invisible you satisify the conditions for brilliant tactician. And basically any build can do it if you use Strand of Favor to extend the fun effects like Blade Cascade, Conduit, Darkest Before Dawn etc. 

Have found a lot of builds that can solo all the content besides Hauni O Whe, and even more if you skip Hauni O Whe and Dorudugan.

---

BTW stats are hard capped at 35, if you have 36 might it is treated as 35

Edited March 12, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Lapinouple]

I was maxing the ones that kinda sounded right or fun but nothing beats math I guess.

I've looked into Unbending's "bug" (is it a bug since it doesn't match the ingame description but have not been touched for that long of a time ?) and yeah it seems crazy as limaxophobiacq stated it, I was missing out taking it on Eder because he usually is my tank but not on my Watcher (might not build another fighter soon but I'll remember).

Is there a list in the forum of abilities or passives that are actually way more different than the description ?

I kinda knew that Fists are like among the best (if not The best) options for Monk since I've seen a lot of Solo PotD upscale build as unarmed monk, or since it always is an option in most melee builds that multiclass a monk but I took WotEP for my own pleasure of multi hitting with a 2H weapon, to remember my young years as 2H windfury shaman in Wow, and it seemed like a good weapon for it.

I really like unarmed builds in a lot of rpgs because it look so cool so I might try a SC Monk, the only one I built was a Mortar one advocated by Boeroer and it was really fun, for a long time I gave Seraphen's weapons to Xoti to replicate the same effects but I recently discovered (on this forum) that Tekehu use it well too.

Might also go Furyshaper/monk (idk which subclass yet) to go full on with the wow Shaman vibe with totems and 2 weapons with elemental lashes.

I guess Monk really is my favorite class ! really love Paladin too in rpgs (can't go wrong with a melee char that smites people with rays of light) and Voltron's Votary (Paladin/Monk) might be the most fun I had in the game yet, another paladin Votary's Bleak Huntress (Holy slayer) is a lot of fun too but a bit too overpowered (in solo)

Thank you very much for breaking down everything feels good to understand the game more and more !

 

[limaxophobiacq]

On 3/11/2023 at 9:23 PM, Lapinouple said:

Nope Unbending proudly bears its name and isn't even bent by the community patch, you are describing it as crazy but 25(or 33)% healing on received damage equals roughly to 25(or 33)% max life doesn't it ? stacking INT to have a longer uptime on this buff (and so to max the amount of those 25% or 33% you get)  may not be worth on itself

The thing unbending doesn't say in its description that makes it so effective with high Int is how the healing over time effect works that triggers every time you get wounded while Unbroken is active. At base it heals you 25%(or 33%) of damage taken as 5%(6.6%) of damage taken every second for 5 seconds (so 5*5(or 5*6.6)= 25%(or 33%) total), but the duration of those healing effect are increased by Int but the healing stays at 5% per second, so with 30 int -> +100% duration and unbending trunk upgrade it heals you 6.6% of damage taken every second for  10 seconds, so for 66% of damage taken, and it's also improved by power level, so at PL 7 and int 35 it heals for 33*2.25*1.1 = ~82% of damage taken in addition to the duration of the unbroken ability itself being increased in duration.

 

On 3/12/2023 at 1:54 PM, Lapinouple said:

I really like unarmed builds in a lot of rpgs because it look so cool so I might try a SC Monk, the only one I built was a Mortar one advocated by Boeroer and it was really fun, for a long time I gave Seraphen's weapons to Xoti to replicate the same effects but I recently discovered (on this forum) that Tekehu use it well too.

You can't really go wrong with single class monk using fists, accuracy and pen they get at high levels is incredible

 

On 3/12/2023 at 1:54 PM, Lapinouple said:

Is there a list in the forum of abilities or passives that are actually way more different than the description ?

Not directly but theLees guide https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/227477-pillars-of-eternity-ii-deadfire/faqs/76599 is probably the best place to start if you want to research some classes and find the more notable class abilities and explanations for when/why they are good and also a lot of mechanical oddities.

[Shai Hulud]

On 3/12/2023 at 7:54 AM, Lapinouple said:

I was maxing the ones that kinda sounded right or fun but nothing beats math I guess.

(I posted this days ago but it didn't actually post, but I was able to recover the post by refreshing and it was saved)

Yeah, there doesn't seem to be much role-playing reason a martial would want super high intelligence and not care about might as much. The game is really not very intuitive sometimes. In POE1 (and POE2 to lesser extent) for barbarians, by far the most important stat was intelligence because it increased the size of the carnage field and extended duration of crit effects in that carnage field. But it made no sense thematically to be rolling these illiterate barbarians with 19 or 20 intelligence.

On 3/12/2023 at 7:54 AM, Lapinouple said:

I've looked into Unbending's "bug" (is it a bug since it doesn't match the ingame description but have not been touched for that long of a time ?) and yeah it seems crazy as limaxophobiacq stated it, I was missing out taking it on Eder because he usually is my tank but not on my Watcher (might not build another fighter soon but I'll remember).

Bug, unintended behavior, not really sure. Once you recognize it it isn't that big a deal, on enemies you just have to wait for unbending trunk to run out or else use arcane dampener or similar ability.

On 3/12/2023 at 7:54 AM, Lapinouple said:

Is there a list in the forum of abilities or passives that are actually way more different than the description ?

Hmm, I dunno, I feel like @Boeroeris the guy to ask about that. I can partly address this.

One off the top of my head is Red Flag Flying on the Mahora Tanga spear, it has some crazy interactions with high crit builds when carrying other on-crit equipment like Gatecrashers gloves or especially dual-wielding something (like sungrazer's on-crit stun), it will proc dozens of times and potentially crash the game so I don't mess with it.

Another is the Pain Link ability, it reads that 25% of damage applied to the caster is redirected as raw damage to the attacker, but Pain Link is kinda bugged (in a bad way), it only procs on the first hit of an attack. Like an enemy casts a fireball, it hits someone else in your party and then hits your pain linked guy, it won't proc. Also won't proc if it kills whatever it's cast on.

Oh, forbidden fist attack sounds like a weapon attack but it's treated as an ability, so it doesn't get bonuses from weapon abilities like two-weapon-style and using it doesn't proc focus gain for cipher multiclasses. This is fixed with the community patch.

Some of the descriptions are slightly misleading but most of the abilities work how you'd think. I actually can't think of anything else that serious but my knowledge is far from encyclopedic.

I mean there are various exploits, most well-known is probably Strand of Favor and Cabalist's Gambeson Arcane Extension, which says gives +10% benefiical effect duration, but what it doesn't say is this applies to CURRENT EFFECTS as well as new ones, so if you proc a nice effect, like the healing from Darkest Before Dawn or the Conduit damage from Deltro's Cage Helm, you can rapidly unequip/re-equip Strand of Favor and/or Cabalist's Cambeson and extend the effects to infinite durations.

Also Blade Cascade from Scordeo's Edge eliminates recovery from EVERYTHING, and can be extended infinitely.

I have a list of these types of exploits that I've used in an ultimate run, near the bottom of the build guide link below. It isn't exhaustive but it's most of the good ones, you can also check the Community Patch at nexus mods which is a really nice mod, it may list some corrections, and the Balance Polishing Mod (BPM) addresses mostly exploits but it does fix a number of things that don't work how they should like Unbending and certain summons not getting their weapons scaling correctly. Also a great mod, though I think overall it increases the difficulty quite a bit if you install the whole thing (nerfs+buffs). I wouldn't advocate using these exploits below unless you're trying to do something particularly difficult like soling upscaled POTD or magran's fire challenges. They can be a lot of fun but reduce challenge dramatically

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/131345-build-guide-the-soul-devourer-multiclass-blood-mage-soul-blade-optimal-for-potd-solo/

On 3/12/2023 at 7:54 AM, Lapinouple said:

I kinda knew that Fists are like among the best (if not The best) options for Monk since I've seen a lot of Solo PotD upscale build as unarmed monk, or since it always is an option in most melee builds that multiclass a monk but I took WotEP for my own pleasure of multi hitting with a 2H weapon, to remember my young years as 2H windfury shaman in Wow, and it seemed like a good weapon for it.

Yeah WOTEP sounds and looks cool but unfortunately the base damage is way lower than any other sword, I guess because of the cone. It is good in some situations but monks get huge bonuses on fists from transcendent suffering. But I mean if you're not playing solo upscaled POTD you don't need to pick things optimally, you can mostly pick things how you want as long as you don't make huge mistakes in the build. And you're making me feel old, I was in college when WOW came out.

My youth nostalgia is from Baldur's gate (and even older games). As it should be

On 3/12/2023 at 7:54 AM, Lapinouple said:

I really like unarmed builds in a lot of rpgs because it look so cool so I might try a SC Monk, the only one I built was a Mortar one advocated by Boeroer and it was really fun, for a long time I gave Seraphen's weapons to Xoti to replicate the same effects but I recently discovered (on this forum) that Tekehu use it well too.

I don't know much about the blunderbuss weapons, never used that one Serafen gives you because I don't think I've ever completed his quest. But if Boeroer says it's good it is probably good. For me the main thing about SC monk is they get massive, massive accuracy, damage, and penetration scaling from Transcendent Suffering (the fist skill). Unlike weapons it scales with their power level, so multiclass monk's fists aren't quite as good (though still pretty dang good). Also the razer's edge can get them +10 accuracy, resonant touch is really, really good, and imagined pain generates tons of wounds. Dichotomous Soul is a great summon and The Long Pain gives ranged fist attacks. And the crown of SC monk is whispers on the wind combined with Ajamuut's Stalking Cloak, you can zip around stunning the battlefield with that combo.

It is particularly nuts when combined with a flail called Keeper of the Flame and Eder's armor upgraded with Veteran's Maneuver. The flail has a fire AOE attack that targets friend and foe, but it targets reflex, and veteran's maneuver makes you immune to reflex (until hit a few times anyway), so with this combination every whisper on the wind procs imagined pain repeatedly and you can keep spamming the ability. 

Forbidden fist monks are particularly good for martials, especially with the community patch, but they require a pretty detailed stat spread to keep the curse from building up. Basically you want max resolve, intelligence no higher than 13, and dexterity 2 or 3. And you have to wear certain items like ring of the solitary wanderer and anything that pumps resolve. If the curse builds up you die, usually, but with the right stat spread you can just spam forbidden fist attack which is stupid strong and HEALS you.

On 3/12/2023 at 7:54 AM, Lapinouple said:

Might also go Furyshaper/monk (idk which subclass yet) to go full on with the wow Shaman vibe with totems and 2 weapons with elemental lashes.

I've never played a furyshaper but assuming they play similarly to other barbarians that should be pretty fun.

On 3/12/2023 at 7:54 AM, Lapinouple said:

I guess Monk really is my favorite class ! really love Paladin too in rpgs (can't go wrong with a melee char that smites people with rays of light) and Voltron's Votary (Paladin/Monk) might be the most fun I had in the game yet, another paladin Votary's Bleak Huntress (Holy slayer) is a lot of fun too but a bit too overpowered (in solo)

Thank you very much for breaking down everything feels good to understand the game more and more !

 

You're welcome. I too usually like paladins in RPGs but to me they feel like one of the weaker classes in Deadfire, at least single-classed. There are some very good multiclass combinations (votary for one, arcanist for another), and the Balance Polishing Mod I mentioned before improves them quite a bit and Elric is working on improving them further soon. 

Hard to go wrong with monks in Deadfire, probably the strongest class in the game overall. Blood mage is arguably stronger but a lot more technical in how to play them effectively. Chanters and ciphers also are quite strong, particularly certain multiclasses like psion/troubadour if you want to be a summoning god. The thing that keeps me coming back for more with Deadfire is the staggering number of multiclass and subclass combinations. Adds a ton of replayability.

[Boeroer]

17 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

But if Boeroer says it's good it is probably good.

It's not bad...

The best thing is that Powder Burns and then Blinding Smoke of Hand Mortar (procs a cone AoE from every crit of the AoE) and alsothe AoE jump from Fire in the Hole's Chain Shot all trigger Resonant Touch (Blinding Smoke triggering Resonant Touch is removed with Community Patch iirc, also stacks of Res. Touch are limited with CP). So even if you don't kill the enemies outright with Whispers of the Wind you will when activating Resonant Touch afterwards. It helps that everything is stunned for a while, too. Everything besides megabosses is a joke at some point with this setup imo. But of course you first have to get WotW. Luckily a SC Monk reaches Stunning Surge rel. fast and that's also a big cornerstone of a mortar monk because you will nearly always get refund (with enough enemies in the AoE) and a very long-lasting stun in an (or several) AoE + good AoE damage for nearly free is just great. So it's also a nice build along the way, not only at PL9. 

---

Most abilities work as described - but I find most descriptions pretty vague tbh. Unbeding is an especially obscure case. Each time you get damaged you get a little healing over time effect. If you get hit multiple times you will have multiple parallel healing over time instances on you. Now if you prolong those (via INT or otehr things like Salvation of Time or Wall of Draining and so on) you will stack a lot of those little healing instances on you which don't run out. That way for example a Fighter/Wizard can reach healing ticks of over 1000 per 3 secs. Impossible to die except when getting one-shotted (which is unlikely).

From the top of my head I don't remember any grossly misdescribed abilities. But I didn't play for a while and maybe there are and I just got accustomed to them and not paying attention to the description anymore, no idea.   

What is most obscure: still the stacking rules (passives stack, actives do not - but see modals), hit conversion stacking, the math of some maluses (double inversion etc.) and how let's say a -50% damage malus is way more severe than a +100% dmg bonus would be benefical etc. - this is why underpenetration has to be avoided like the plague and why you shouldn't drop MIG under 10 if you want to deal damage in any shape or form.

---

Don't know why I remember that now, but a fun ability combo that I discovered by accident and which was fun (no idea if it was patched out at some point) was that the FIre Stag of the Druid wouldn't really die if you cast Barring Death's Door (or Shieldbearer's Lay on Hands) on it and then let it do its self-detonations. You'd have a steerable summon that could turn into a fireball as often as you liked (as long as the death would be prevented).   

  

  
  

Edited March 16, 2023 by Boeroer

[Shai Hulud]

4 hours ago, Boeroer said:

It's not bad...

The best thing is that Powder Burns and then Blinding Smoke of Hand Mortar (procs a cone AoE from every crit of the AoE) and alsothe AoE jump from Fire in the Hole's Chain Shot all trigger Resonant Touch (Blinding Smoke triggering Resonant Touch is removed with Community Patch iirc, also stacks of Res. Touch are limited with CP). So even if you don't kill the enemies outright with Whispers of the Wind you will when activating Resonant Touch afterwards. It helps that everything is stunned for a while, too. Everything besides megabosses is a joke at some point with this setup imo. But of course you first have to get WotW. Luckily a SC Monk reaches Stunning Surge rel. fast and that's also a big cornerstone of a mortar monk because you will nearly always get refund (with enough enemies in the AoE) and a very long-lasting stun in an (or several) AoE + good AoE damage for nearly free is just great. So it's also a nice build along the way, not only at PL9. 

---

Most abilities work as described - but I find most descriptions pretty vague tbh. Unbeding is an especially obscure case. Each time you get damaged you get a little healing over time effect. If you get hit multiple times you will have multiple parallel healing over time instances on you. Now if you prolong those (via INT or otehr things like Salvation of Time or Wall of Draining and so on) you will stack a lot of those little healing instances on you which don't run out. That way for example a Fighter/Wizard can reach healing ticks of over 1000 per 3 secs. Impossible to die except when getting one-shotted (which is unlikely).

From the top of my head I don't remember any grossly misdescribed abilities. But I didn't play for a while and maybe there are and I just got accustomed to them and not paying attention to the description anymore, no idea.   

What is most obscure: still the stacking rules (passives stack, actives do not - but see modals), hit conversion stacking, the math of some maluses (double inversion etc.) and how let's say a -50% damage malus is way more severe than a +100% dmg bonus would be benefical etc. - this is why underpenetration has to be avoided like the plague and why you shouldn't drop MIG under 10 if you want to deal damage in any shape or form.

---

Don't know why I remember that now, but a fun ability combo that I discovered by accident and which was fun (no idea if it was patched out at some point) was that the FIre Stag of the Druid wouldn't really die if you cast Barring Death's Door (or Shieldbearer's Lay on Hands) on it and then let it do its self-detonations. You'd have a steerable summon that could turn into a fireball as often as you liked (as long as the death would be prevented).   

  

  
  

That monk combo looks crazy lol. Carry seekers of the flame in other hand and you've got a game breaking build. 

How do you get the roughests to all stand where you want them? Like you can console in enemies at exact points?

I usually test things "in the wild" which doesn't always work as well since it isn't controlled

[Boeroer]

3 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

How do you get the roughests to all stand where you want them? Like you can console in enemies at exact points?

Yes, you can spawn any prefab at mouse position for example. This ones are cre_dummy which are immobile Rotghasts with low defenses but very high health - so they are great for testing. 

[Lapinouple]

On 3/15/2023 at 4:57 PM, Shai Hulud said:

Forbidden fist monks are particularly good for martials, especially with the community patch

It looked really fun each time I read about it so I’m currently testing it a bit, I went for min INT and for max RES, high PER and DEX and medium CON and MIG, and what seems like the convention for most FF builds, dagger + Tuotillo, Ring of the Solitary Wanderer, Nature godlike + stone of power

This time I’m exploring the Archipelago alone (a bit because of the ring and also because i wanted to try) and it is quite strong, I am still getting used to fighting with FF, the community patch allows me to get my sweet multi hits with it, but idk maybe is it too early to judge, maybe its just that running solo makes the game a bit empty or maybe I just played a bit too much of PoE lately so I’m used to the gameplay of 2 or 3 engdame builds, but idk it doesnt feel right or like the monk gameplay I search, might push it to (finally) try the last monk abilities (never SC it so far) and I’ll have a better/more accurate opinion of it

[Shai Hulud]

12 hours ago, Lapinouple said:

It looked really fun each time I read about it so I’m currently testing it a bit, I went for min INT and for max RES, high PER and DEX and medium CON and MIG, and what seems like the convention for most FF builds, dagger + Tuotillo, Ring of the Solitary Wanderer, Nature godlike + stone of power

This time I’m exploring the Archipelago alone (a bit because of the ring and also because i wanted to try) and it is quite strong, I am still getting used to fighting with FF, the community patch allows me to get my sweet multi hits with it, but idk maybe is it too early to judge, maybe its just that running solo makes the game a bit empty or maybe I just played a bit too much of PoE lately so I’m used to the gameplay of 2 or 3 engdame builds, but idk it doesnt feel right or like the monk gameplay I search, might push it to (finally) try the last monk abilities (never SC it so far) and I’ll have a better/more accurate opinion of it

I tend to dump dex because even with max resolve and ring of the solitary wanderer and strand of favor, plus enlightened agony, the curse lasts around 2s, which is about how long it takes to make an attack with an effective dex around 9 or 10 + lightning strikes + two weapom style. So with amira's blessing (+2) alchemic guile (+2) Rabyuna (+1) and berath (+2) that puts you in the 9 to 10 window. If anything I sometimes still attack too fast and have to use small shield modal.

But these stats are with community patch which you should really install for a lot of reasons. Without CP the forbidden fist attacks take more like 2.9s with dumped INT because you don't get dual wield or two weapon bonuses. 

You can get away with INT up to 13 if you have the items I mentioned plus enlightened agony which increases INT to 18 but also greatly reduces hostile effect duration. 

I have my script set up to keep up swift flurry (cast on losing dex inspiration), keep up enlightened agony, and only use forbidden fist if smart. Sometimes you don't have enough wounds so I also add a block to use forbidden fist if not smart but it has a 3s recovery time so the curse won't build up.

Dagger for +10 melee deflection?

FF monk is a bit monotonous if you just spam FF but you should also summon dichotomous souls and use instruments of pain behind them. Enduring dance also very useful if you can keep from getting hit too much. FF/soul blade is really good because the soul blade side makes it less monotonous. SC monk also very good, you get resonant touch and whispers on the wind.

[Okkes]

11 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

I tend to dump dex because even with max resolve and ring of the solitary wanderer and strand of favor, plus enlightened agony, the curse lasts around 2s, which is about how long it takes to make an attack with an effective dex around 9 or 10 + lightning strikes + two weapom style. So with amira's blessing (+2) alchemic guile (+2) Rabyuna (+1) and berath (+2) that puts you in the 9 to 10 window. If anything I sometimes still attack too fast and have to use small shield modal.

But these stats are with community patch which you should really install for a lot of reasons. Without CP the forbidden fist attacks take more like 2.9s with dumped INT because you don't get dual wield or two weapon bonuses. 

You can get away with INT up to 13 if you have the items I mentioned plus enlightened agony which increases INT to 18 but also greatly reduces hostile effect duration. 

I have my script set up to keep up swift flurry (cast on losing dex inspiration), keep up enlightened agony, and only use forbidden fist if smart. Sometimes you don't have enough wounds so I also add a block to use forbidden fist if not smart but it has a 3s recovery time so the curse won't build up.

Dagger for +10 melee deflection?

FF monk is a bit monotonous if you just spam FF but you should also summon dichotomous souls and use instruments of pain behind them. Enduring dance also very useful if you can keep from getting hit too much. FF/soul blade is really good because the soul blade side makes it less monotonous. SC monk also very good, you get resonant touch and whispers on the wind.

Wait is forbidden fist attack getting two weapon recovery speed with community patch? Than why it doesn't get one handed accuracy bonus?

[Shai Hulud]

1 hour ago, Okkes said:

Wait is forbidden fist attack getting two weapon recovery speed with community patch? Than why it doesn't get one handed accuracy bonus?

Yes in CP you get two weapon and dual wielding if actually dual wielding or using tuotilo. In vanilla FF isn't considered a weapon so it doesn't get any weapon bonuses. But fists never get one handed bonus. The +accuracy from transcendent suffering compensates though.

BTW @Lapinouple personally I dont like godlike for this, their stat bonuses are bad and it prevents some very good helmets. The helm of the white void is particularly good since it gives +10 accuracy on forbidden fist attacks but rekvu's fractured casque is also super useful in some hard fights (like dorudugan). 

I think hearth orlan is the best, +2 perception is awesome, +1 resolve is great, and we don't max might so the -1 might doesn't matter. Resistsnce to resolve afflictions is also nice. Humans are also a good choice for stats plus fighting spirit. Dwarves are okay so you can dump dex to 2. 

My stats are basically max res, max per, 10 to 13 int, completely dump dex, 6 to 8 con, put rest in might. And this is optimized for light armors or DOC BP. With heavier armors you can increase dex to attack a bit faster or increase INT (i tend to go latter route). I find personally 13 INT is sweetspot if you can get resolve to 35 and have solitary wanderer ring + clarity/enlightened agony

Edited March 18, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Okkes]

Hmm very interesting but i think it should get 1 handed bonus accuracy when you equip 1 handed weapon than... Maybe @Elric Galad can do that in balance polishing mod?

[Elric Galad]

39 minutes ago, Okkes said:

Hmm very interesting but i think it should get 1 handed bonus accuracy when you equip 1 handed weapon than... Maybe @Elric Galad can do that in balance polishing mod?

I don't think it's technically possible unfortunately. In the same fashion, it is impossible to get 1 handed bonus with fists (no way way to tell the game that you fight with one hand only  ) 

[Lapinouple]

3 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

these stats are with community patch which you should really install for a lot of reasons

Yes ! I play with it as it makes FF and Shatter pillar much more enjoyable !

 

3 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Dagger for +10 melee deflection?

Yes, to tank a little better and to get a little more from the small shield modal because FF use your fist anyway, the main hand don't matter to much (for where I am in the game now)

 

3 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

FF monk is a bit monotonous if you just spam FF but you should also summon dichotomous souls and use instruments of pain behind them. Enduring dance also very useful if you can keep from getting hit too much. FF/soul blade is really good because the soul blade side makes it less monotonous. SC monk also very good, you get resonant touch and whispers on the wind.

Yes it feels a little bit monotonous, but that I haven't invested my talent points in Dichotomous Souls and Instruments of Pain yet, I like Enduring Dance tho

1 hour ago, Shai Hulud said:

BTW @Lapinouple personally I dont like godlike for this, their stat bonuses are bad and it prevents some very good helmets. The helm of the white void is particularly good since it gives +10 accuracy on forbidden fist attacks but rekvu's fractured casque is also super useful in some hard fights (like dorudugan).

About the race its true that others racial bonuses are more suited for the build but I am just being lazy with the helmets and the 100% uptime +1 power level feels right for unarmed (+ bonus style points for the godlikes)

 

About the stats, I am used to high DEX and quite like the stat but it's true that high dex + Devil of Caroc makes the recovery time lower than the curse uptime, I think I'll try your stats repartition because low INT feels wrong with that much buffs even

[Shai Hulud]

16 hours ago, Lapinouple said:

Yes ! I play with it as it makes FF and Shatter pillar much more enjoyable !

 

Yes, to tank a little better and to get a little more from the small shield modal because FF use your fist anyway, the main hand don't matter to much (for where I am in the game now)

 

Yes it feels a little bit monotonous, but that I haven't invested my talent points in Dichotomous Souls and Instruments of Pain yet, I like Enduring Dance tho

About the race its true that others racial bonuses are more suited for the build but I am just being lazy with the helmets and the 100% uptime +1 power level feels right for unarmed (+ bonus style points for the godlikes)

 

About the stats, I am used to high DEX and quite like the stat but it's true that high dex + Devil of Caroc makes the recovery time lower than the curse uptime, I think I'll try your stats repartition because low INT feels wrong with that much buffs even

Yeah in non FF builds I tend to have dex in 13 to 18 range and often dump resolve, but forbidden fist attack does such massive damage compared to weapons, and generates wounds, and heals you, and enfeebles enemies, so for FF builds you want to attack as fast as you can without attacking faster than curse duration. I was kind of surprised you could actually completely dump dex and still attack once per 2s in robes. With devil of caroc bp probably more like 2.4s, maybe bit less with Abraham as pet. Lightning strikes / swift flurry plus dual wield plus two weapon fighting is equivalent to roughly 25 points of dexterity, so you don't suffer much as long as dual wielding, especially if you have some of the passive +dex boons and berath champion stats.

You should try tweaking dex and int with the console as the exact optimal values depend on your armor, other equipment, and whether certain abilities have been used. The display value for forbidden curse is going to be way off, doesn't factor in resolve and lone wolf, so you have to pause right after using ability (make sure clarity of agony or enlightened agony is up also to further reduce curse), check character sheet for the actual duration, then compare with attack + recovery for FF ability (with swift flurry and two weapon style active), ideally this value will be the same or .1s longer than the curse time.

And in case you didn't know, console is accessed using ' key (grave), then type iroll20s, enter, then "attributescore player[press TAB to compete] dexterity 3" for example (without quotes, and pressing tab completes commands or names of the player which isn't always obvious). Iroll20s disables achievements but only if you save that file and continue from there, if you just invoke it to test things and then reload it won't affect achievements.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Lapinouple]

6 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

You should try tweaking dex and int with the console as the exact optimal values depend on your armor

Yeah I have been quite dumb, rerolling so much Characters to try stuff while I simply could use the console, I'm used to play with the console in other games to test things but idk why I didn't give it a try in this case while trying to optimize the numbers, I guess I was hoping for a longshot by maxing what seemed utile and minimizing the rest, not very scientific nor time efficient lol

[Shai Hulud]

5 hours ago, Lapinouple said:

Yeah I have been quite dumb, rerolling so much Characters to try stuff while I simply could use the console, I'm used to play with the console in other games to test things but idk why I didn't give it a try in this case while trying to optimize the numbers, I guess I was hoping for a longshot by maxing what seemed utile and minimizing the rest, not very scientific nor time efficient lol

I used to do that a lot, and it has some value in that you learn how builds work as they level in different encounters...

Ultimately though I think the best way to test builds is make a save at any point after you get your ship, and use console command OpenCharacterCreation

Follow with addexperience 190000 to get l20, can do lots of stuff from there. The "find" command is useful, it shows you console commands and their parameters. "Findgamedata" is also very useful, it finds names corresponding to items (giveitem) or status effects (applystatuseffect) or abilities (addability) etc. 

[Boeroer]

Instead of using Character Creation and manually build your test char you can use setClassLevel and addAbility and give your test char all classes and abilities you want to test faster (or as an alternative for more detail/control).

Due to the fact that you don't have to type the commands after the first time because you can use cursor-up and down to cycle through your previous commands and use tab to autocomplete your commands. With a bit of practice this saves a lot of time. 

Sometimes you don't even need to chance class. For example for testing passives you can simply add the passive ability to the character, no matter the class. Most passives don't care what class they are attached to. Like... you can test if a weapon works with Driving Flight even if it's not a Ranger.

Some abilities are compositions of multiple "hidden" abilities. You then need to add all of them in order to get proper test results. Examples from the top of my head are Resonant Touch and One Stands Alone. In that case it may be saver to use the Character Creation.

Also when you want to test empower mechanics the character creation is better because abilities added with addAbility can't use empower for whatever weird reason. 

In general I'd say if you want to test a whole character concept then the character creation is better, but if you just want to test singular aspects or only a certain idea about a character then setClassLevel and addAbility are better (faster). 

You can also remove abilities with removeAbility if they would skew your results (e.g. Heartbeat Drumming or Turning Wheel or the Helwalker passive often get in the way, or Carnage...).

Subclass passives are also added with addAbility. They are usually named like the subclass itself (although several subclasses have additional abilities on top of the subclass-named one - example Streetfighter has three additional passives on top of his "Streetfighter" passive which does not do much). Your character doesn't need to have the right subclass in order to test subclass passives. However, for the proper ability tree display you can use setSubclass and see the correct tree.

Always use tab to check out if a command and ability etc. actually exists. Saves you from guessing names. 

Sometimes it can make sense to raise or lower attributes with setAttribute. For example when testing out FF you can raise and lower INT and MIG and DEX and play around until you find the sweet spot. 

I think for getting into it the character creation screen is a great starting point. 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Boeroer

[Shai Hulud]

Is setattribute different from attributescore?

If I want to set my dexterity to 3 for example I use "attributescore player[tab] dexterity 3"

And yeah removeability and removestatuseffect are useful. Opencharactercreation removes most abilities (some exceptions like ranger animal companion abilities) but it doesn't remove status effects like boons or food. Usually this is good so you don't have to reenter all the per rest bonuses, but sometimes you want different food bonuses for different builds.

One thing I havent figured out is a clean way to apply said food bonuses. I can add the individual status effects for the food but they don't show up as an icon and say "name status error" in the character sheet. I can also add the food as an ability and click on it to apply status effects but the icon is an X for some reason

 

[Boeroer]

Heh, maybe the proper name is setAttributeScore. I don't 100@% remember because I only type "setA" and hit tab and the console completes the command for me. The drawback is that I don't memorize the exact commands so we'll compared to when I would have to type them out every time.

I don't know much about adding food effects because I don't pay attention to consumables at all (somehow I never incorporate consumable effects into my game, some generic food that's readily available will do for me) - so that's something that I almost never test, sorry.