Mechanics of duplicate spells (Phantom, Watery Double, Etc.?)

[Shai Hulud]

@Elric Galad

Animancy Cat is not applying either the might bonus or penetration bonus to essential phantom (probably other duplicates as well, but I've only tested essential phantom). Dunno if you were aware of this already. 

Can see the animancy cat on the left there. Has an aura of 42.6 according to my tooltip so he should be applying the summons buff but there is no damage bonus from might and no pen bonus. Doesn't seem to work in vanilla either. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Elric Galad]

56 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

@Elric Galad

Animancy Cat is not applying either the might bonus or penetration bonus to essential phantom (probably other duplicates as well, but I've only tested essential phantom). Dunno if you were aware of this already. 

Can see the animancy cat on the left there. Has an aura of 42.6 according to my tooltip so he should be applying the summons buff but there is no damage bonus from might and no pen bonus. Doesn't seem to work in vanilla either. 

It might work only on "Party" (controllable) summons, and not allied ones.

Or maybe just Clones indeed.

I just checked the file, but nothing suspicious, it is supposed to work on allies.

[Not So Clever Hound]

Aaah Deadfire.

Game V5.something, plus Community Patch V4.something, plus Balance Polishing Mod V2.something... yet still, broken. Just as I like it.  

[abot]

 

@Shai Hulud
I don't remember exactly but I think my ultimate challenge run was validated in about 3/4 weeks, and my run was probably one of the slower ones with lots of video footage, but they had a dedicated person at the time so maybe thngs are slower now

I don't know the implementation details of target groups so I could be wrong, but I don't think you can easily add Vela as automatically scripted target for Withdraw or similar already legit spells/scrolls without allowing other spells too that would make the challenge different/easier (e.g. a cipher with pain block/ectopsychic echo working on Vela  would have easier life)
Not that it would be much a problem at this point, a challenge patched to allow more classes without obligatory cheese could be very interesting and make more people try it.

Edited January 27, 2023 by abot

[Shai Hulud]

1 hour ago, abot said:

 

@Shai Hulud
I don't remember exactly but I think my ultimate challenge run was validated in about 3/4 weeks, and my run was probably one of the slower ones with lots of video footage, but they had a dedicated person at the time so maybe thngs are slower now

I don't know the implementation details of target groups so I could be wrong, but I don't think you can easily add Vela as automatically scripted target for Withdraw or similar already legit spells/scrolls without allowing other spells too that would make the challenge different/easier (e.g. a cipher with pain block/ectopsychic echo working on Vela  would have easier life)
Not that it would be much a problem at this point, a challenge patched to allow more classes without obligatory cheese could be very interesting and make more people try it.

It's been about a month so maybe they're working on it but I didn't get an email saying anyone was validating it. Did you, or was it nothing until they finished and then you were told? My run was also pretty long, like 60 hours. Maybe I should resubmit it...

Yeah I guess if Vela is tagged as ally it could possibly allow more spells to be cast on her. I didn't think about that. Though I don't understand the logic in allowing most priest healing spells but not Pain Block. I guess with Pain Block you could try using her as a tank in battle? But I don't think that would work very well since she won't be still and her stats are way worse than an animal companion (well, I guess you could cast Halt or binding web on her every now and then but still)....Ectopsychic echo would be interesting. You can actually do similar stuff to her with a wizard and hostile ray spells (probably antipathetic field also but I never tried it). Ninagauth's Bitter Mooring is an interesting case. Normally never use that spell, but can cast it on her followed by Withdraw and she still acts as an anchor, then you can zip across the battlefield with Leap or Escape or whatever.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[abot]

Ok, I managed to find things in my mail history. My review started after a few days from submission, then validation confirmation after 3 weeks. Then I received the physical letter and badge after about 1 month

Edited January 27, 2023 by abot

[Shai Hulud]

22 hours ago, abot said:

Ok, I managed to find things in my mail history. My review started after a few days from submission, then validation confirmation after 3 weeks. Then I received the physical letter and badge after about 1 month

Huh. I just have the auto-reply on 12/29 (I know it is automated since it says so at the bottom). Sent it again yesterday, didn't get an auto-reply this time. The auto-reply is from support@obsidian.net and says "We’ve received your e-mail and someone from our team will get back to you as soon as possible. Please allow for additional response time as we are closed for the holidays starting December 21st - Jan 3rd. " Followed by various links.

theultimate@obsidian.net right? I mean I assume this is at least a viable email because I did get the automated reply. Attached the gamecomplete.savegame file and a link to the playlist. Maybe they don't do it anymore? Though they verified yours, and at least one other run since then, and that wasn't too long ago. I want that nerd badge damn it lol

[Boeroer]

We could tag one of the devs from the community realm who are always happy to help, like for example @Shyla? 

If that doesn't help then maybe try to hit @jesawyer on Twitter (in a nice way ;)):  

He's not active here on the forums anymore but he is very active over there. I often see him answering reasonable questions, especially when it's about the Ultimate. But his feed and notifications are quite crowded I guess (he has a lot of followers) so there might be a chance he misses it. 

The chance could be even higher if you try it on Tumblr, he's anwering there very frequently and posts the answers on Twitter, too - but I have no experience with that platform: https://www.tumblr.com/jesawyer

[abot]

On 1/28/2023 at 1:05 PM, Shai Hulud said:

theultimate@obsidian.net right? I mean I assume this is at least a viable email because I did get the automated reply. 

 theultimate@obsidian.net
yes, that's the one email I used too. It's been a while though, 2021-03-01

Edited January 29, 2023 by abot

[Shai Hulud]

On 1/28/2023 at 7:20 AM, Boeroer said:

We could tag one of the devs from the community realm who are always happy to help, like for example @Shyla? 

If that doesn't help then maybe try to hit @jesawyer on Twitter (in a nice way ;)):  

He's not active here on the forums anymore but he is very active over there. I often see him answering reasonable questions, especially when it's about the Ultimate. But his feed and notifications are quite crowded I guess (he has a lot of followers) so there might be a chance he misses it. 

The chance could be even higher if you try it on Tumblr, he's anwering there very frequently and posts the answers on Twitter, too - but I have no experience with that platform: https://www.tumblr.com/jesawyer

I'm not familiar with either platform lol. I'm too old. Though how hard can twitter be...

10 hours ago, abot said:

 theultimate@obsidian.net
yes, that's the one email I used too. It's been a while though, 2021-03-01

Thanks, the one I meant was more recent was sarcasticsarcophagae's, I assume it was verified since it is listed on the wiki...his run was about 6 months before mine. Relatively recent in the lifespan of the game anyway. Particularly since they said they'd give badges to the first 50. I'm guessing they thought a lot more people would try it...

Guess I'll give tumblr and/or twitter a try. 

[Boeroer]

2 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

 I'm too old. 

Hehe, define "old". I'm 46.

[Shai Hulud]

On 1/30/2023 at 1:04 AM, Boeroer said:

Hehe, define "old". I'm 46.

Okay you're a *little* older than me, but I figure if you were an adult when facebook became a thing you're too old to figure out twitter

@Elric Galad

I'm not sure your preferred method of reporting bugs. Please let me know if you don't want forum posts or if I should post in a different thread. Found a few bugs

1) I made a note on nexus mods (but can't provide screenshots) but the tenacious (presumably also energized) inspirations do not apply bonus penetration to monks' fists. Checked and it does apply to weapons. But Forbidden Fist and in general fist weapon attacks do not benefit. Which you can see here on this ravager berserker/forbidden fist. Blood Storm is up so tenacious is procced, but no bonus pen. (see screenshot)

2) Another issue but one I found harder to screenshot, the displayed beneficial / hostile effect durations are not affected by items such as ring of the solitary wanderer (even in combat), ooblit, strand of favor, etc. Also displayed hostile effect durations do not apply resolve. This guy has a displayed forbidden curse of 17.5 seconds, but it is actually 3.0 seconds after resolve and items. 

3) Not sure if this is intentional but guessing no, Hardy does not stack with Iron Wheel bonus AR, you get whichever is higher. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Elric Galad]

52 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

I'm not sure your preferred method of reporting bugs. Please let me know if you don't want forum posts or if I should post in a different thread. Found a few bugs

Usually :

- If it is a Vanilla bug, best to post on Balance Polishing Mod thread. But as long as you tag me it's OK.

- If it is a confirmed BPM (not vanilla) bug, you can post it on Nexus on the bug register. That being said, I'm not too eager to get bug report that could tarnish the reputation of the mod while it is... I hope... less buggy than vanilla (given I solved a few issues). Especially if it is not justified (such as an actual vanilla bug...). So you could use the same method as above.

52 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

 

1) I made a note on nexus mods (but can't provide screenshots) but the tenacious (presumably also energized) inspirations do not apply bonus penetration to monks' fists. Checked and it does apply to weapons. But Forbidden Fist and in general fist weapon attacks do not benefit. Which you can see here on this ravager berserker/forbidden fist. Blood Storm is up so tenacious is procced, but no bonus pen. (see screenshot)

Penetration from active buff don't stack.

Penetration from Inspirations are active buffs (with a few exceptions that I usually remove for harmonization anyway).

Penetration from weapon modal such as Haymaker are active buffs.

This might be annoying but this is not a bug. 

52 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

2) Another issue but one I found harder to screenshot, the displayed beneficial / hostile effect durations are not affected by items such as ring of the solitary wanderer (even in combat), ooblit, strand of favor, etc. Also displayed hostile effect durations do not apply resolve. This guy has a displayed forbidden curse of 17.5 seconds, but it is actually 3.0 seconds after resolve and items. 

Beyond redemption. Hostile status display their duration without taking into account who they are applied too. Which is slightly sad when an effect is always self-targetted.

52 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

3) Not sure if this is intentional but guessing no, Hardy does not stack with Iron Wheel bonus AR, you get whichever is higher. 

Armor from active buffs don't stack.

Armor from Inspirations are active buffs (with a few exceptions that I usually remove for harmonization anyway).

Armor from modal such as Iron Wheel are active buffs.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Shai Hulud]

5 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Usually :

- If it is a Vanilla bug, best to post on Balance Polishing Mod thread. But as long as you tag me it's OK.

- If it is a confirmed BPM (not vanilla) bug, you can post it on Nexus on the bug register. That being said, I'm not too eager to get bug report that could tarnish the reputation of the mod while it is... I hope... less buggy than vanilla (given I solved a few issues). Especially if it is not justified (such as an actual vanilla bug...). So you could use the same method as above.

Penetration from active buff don't stack.

Penetration from Inspirations are active buffs (with a few exceptions that I usually remove for harmonization anyway).

Penetration from weapon modal such as Haymaker are active buffs.

This might be annoying but this is not a bug. 

Beyond redemption. Hostile status display their duration without taking into account who they are applied too. Which is slightly sad when an effect is always self-targetted.

Armor from active buffs don't stack.

Armor from Inspirations are active buffs (with a few exceptions that I usually remove for harmonization anyway).

Armor from modal such as Iron Wheel are active buffs.

Sorry @Elric Galad, I guess I don't know as much about this game as I thought. I'd remove the bug report on nexus but don't think I can...

I was certain something was wrong with the penetration though, I didn't remember HOW being THAT hard to damage punching him, so I loaded the fight in vanilla and penetration is 2 points higher, much higher if you crit.

This is right after a crit with forbidden fist, same as previous post but in vanilla. Note I have haymaker on in both but it displays "tenacious" in vanilla and "haymaker" in BPM. Not an issue but I think it's why I thought there was one. Plus the penetration is also different...14.5 in BPM and 16.5 in vanilla vs. 21.8 / 24.8 on crit. This makes a big difference when trying to overpen with fists. In vanilla you can overpen on crits vs a lot of enemies (not quite vs HOW, but close, and one big difference is in vanilla you'd do the same damage without tenacious / haymaker as you would in BPM with). 

I know you changed unarmed attacks to address a bug but I think this difference in damage is unintentional based on this section of your notes

Quote

Unarmed attacks :
<Version 2.2> Unarmed attacks for Monks, Monastic unarmed training and normal characters are set to 14-19, but without Talent, they have 0 PEN. This is to address a bug where NPC monks not getting their base 5-8 damages replaced by proper damages.
Foe Monk / foe with Monastic Unarmed Training  will do normal damages (so more than before the fix)
Party Monk / Party member with Monastic Unarmed Training  will do normal damages. 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Shai Hulud
correction

[Elric Galad]

11 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Sorry @Elric Galad, I guess I don't know as much about this game as I thought. I'd remove the bug report on nexus but don't think I can...

I was certain something was wrong with the penetration though, I didn't remember HOW being THAT hard to damage punching him, so I loaded the fight in vanilla and penetration is 2 points higher, much higher if you crit.

This is right after a crit with forbidden fist, same as previous post but in vanilla. Note I have haymaker on in both but it displays "tenacious" in vanilla and "haymaker" in BPM. Not an issue but I think it's why I thought there was one. Plus the penetration is also different...14.5 in BPM and 16.5 in vanilla vs. 21.8 / 24.8 on crit. This makes a big difference when trying to overpen with fists. In vanilla you can overpen on crits vs a lot of enemies (not quite vs HOW, but close, and one big difference is in vanilla you'd do the same damage without tenacious / haymaker as you would in BPM with). 

I know you changed unarmed attacks to address a bug but I think this difference in damage is unintentional based on this section of your notes

 

 

If we're speaking about Forbidden Fist ability, this might be due to following Community Patch change (refer to CP notes on Nexus) :

Monk:

• [...]
• Forbidden Fist penetration decreased from 9 to 7.

[Shai Hulud]

7 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

If we're speaking about Forbidden Fist ability, this might be due to following Community Patch change (refer to CP notes on Nexus) :

Monk:

• [...]
• Forbidden Fist penetration decreased from 9 to 7.

Yep that was it. That char is scripted to only use forbidden fist and not regular fist attacks. Lot of abilities get bonus pen / accuracy / damage, wonder why they nerfed it...

Looked it up. Sounds like so it works better with ciphers they made it like a weapon attack instead of an ability. I guess that makes sense for that specific class but -2 pen is pretty bad nerf.  

[dgray62]

On 2/2/2023 at 8:38 AM, Shai Hulud said:

Yep that was it. That char is scripted to only use forbidden fist and not regular fist attacks. Lot of abilities get bonus pen / accuracy / damage, wonder why they nerfed it...

Perhaps because it receives the Transcendent Suffering bonus to PEN?

[Elric Galad]

On 1/24/2023 at 8:12 AM, Shai Hulud said:

Testing out AOE on unconscious gear on phantoms. This is at L20 with

Mantle of the Seven Bolts
Effort
One Dozen Stood
Least Unstable Coil

Unfortunately Effort and Least Unstable Coil have 7 penetration regardless of level. Same with Cape of the Falling Star. Mantle of the Seven Bolts has 9 penetration which is still not great. One Dozen Stood has a decent 12 penetration. With Animancy Cat the exploding phantoms strat may be sort of usable. Shadowing Beyond => Pull of Eora => Essential Phantom. Stealing Champion's Boon would help the summons a lot. Even if the duration sucks because of negative power level you only really need the +2 pen when they explode.

OK, I tried to correct the non scaling items on clones.

The bad news is that I failed. Somehow the clones "don't die the same way as you" and the passive bonus that added the scaling gets evaporated even before the clones complete their attack. That's why they don't get the scaling. 

The good news is that the scaling problem is only about items that trigger their effects on knockdown. Other passive effect scales as for any characters.

 

A bit sad since the KD items would have been very cool on clones.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Shai Hulud]

23 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

OK, I tried to correct the non scaling items on clones.

The bad news is that I failed. Somehow the clones "don't die the same way as you" and the passive bonus that added the scaling gets evaporated even before the clones complete their attack. That's why they don't get the scaling. 

The good news is that the scaling problem is only about items that trigger their effects on knockdown. Other passive effect scales as for any characters.

 

A bit sad since the KD items would have been very cool on clones.

Dang, I had a whole theoretical build based on sending in exploding phantoms. Was gonna call it "Attack of the Clones!!!"

The MC does pretty respectable damage with those items on knockout but we generally want the MC not to die, so it is sad the clones do far less damage. Thanks for looking into it though.

Yeah I've found other ways to use items on the clones like vs. Huani O Whe if you have the Finality's Claim ring it reflects acid/disease/frost/wind 25% of the time so HOW does massive self-damage. This is especially true if you have multiple clones like monk with The Dichotomous Souls who I think do get the body items just not the weapons, though I mostly tested Essential Phantoms. 

[Boeroer]

On 3/3/2023 at 11:51 PM, Shai Hulud said:

This is especially true if you have multiple clones like monk with The Dichotomous Souls who I think do get the body items just not the weapons, though I mostly tested Essential Phantoms. 

That's right. Dichotomous Souls work like Phantoms - besides their fire and ice weapons which replace what your character had in hands.