[MECHANICS] What exactly is going on inside a Maelstorm...

[Elric Galad]

... and other random AoE spells.

 

To be more explicit, I'm speaking about spells from this list :

- Storm of Holy Fire

- Minoletta's Missile Salvo

- Meteor Shower

- Magran's Might (not technically an AoE, but follow the same obscure rule for its Pulses)

- Great Maestorm*

 

* Maelstorm is a kind of double spell. It has a classic Crush/Frost pulsating AoE (such as the Symbols) and a random Fire/Shock AoE.

The 2 effects have no connection.

I will be speaking about the random Fire/Shock AoE part below.

 

 

1) Pulse :

 

These spells do have pulses, as for classic pulsating spells but it does not appear in their description, or sometimes a 3s pulse appear in the description but is wrong.

(From the gamedata file, they have a pulse attribute of 3s but this attribute isn't used)

 

What they do not say is that they have a "number of random hit" attribute that appears in their gamedata file. You can therefore deduce the pulse interval by dividing their duration by this "number of random hit" as the "number of random hit" stands for the TOTAL number of pulse for the base duration.

 

Here are the actual numbers :

- Storm of Holy Fire :           12 pulses, happening every 0.75s for 9s 

- Minoletta's Missile Salvo   12 pulses, happening every 0.125s for 1.5s

- Meteor Shower                  16 pulses, happening every 0.5s for 8s

- Magran's Might                   8 pulses, happening every 1s for 8s

- Great Maestorm                  6 pulses, happening every 1s for 6s (for Shock/Fire part)

The pulses do happen periodically for the duration.

 

Now what's interesting is that you can extend the duration as for other Pulsating spells.
As for Pulsating spells, Intellect does matter, but Power Level has not effect on duration.

So with INT 20, you'll get 50% more random pulses.

 

However, there seem to be something that causes having about 1 less pulse that what you could expect.

For example :

- with 10 INT Magran's Might has 7 pulses.

- with 20 INT Magran's Might has 11 pulses.

I can't say if it's always minus 1 or if it could be more or less in certain case. Let's say it's 1 less pulse as an approximation.

 

(This is the contrary of normal pulstating spells that gets 1 more pulse than you could expect : a pulse happens at 0s) 

           

 

2) AoE

 

These spells have 2 AoE sizes :

- The first one is rather big but isn't extended by INT (what you see extended by INT when aiming Maestorm is the extension of the normal Ice/Crush pulstating component.)

- The second one is smaller and happens at a random position in the original AoE. It is extended by INT.

 

What can be surprising the position of the secondary AoE is the position of the CENTER of the smaller AoE.

So, if it happens on the border of the initial AoE, due to its own radius, you can hit something OUTSIDE of the initial AoE (friendly or not, depending if you are in the friendly zone or not of the secondary radius.

 

Basically, you have more chance of hitting :

- A bigger target

- A target closer to the center of the AoE

- When you have high INT

- When the secondary radius is bigger in comparison of the first.

 

See below the comparison of Initial (not modifiable by INT) /Secondary radius (modifiable by INT) :

- Storm of Holy Fire                           Initial 5m,    Secondary 1.5m 

- Minoletta's Missile Salvo                 Initial 2.5m, Secondary 1.5m

- Meteor Shower                                Initial 5m,    Secondary 1.5m 

- Great Maestorm (random part)      Initial 5m,    Secondary 2.5m (not displayed by the ability)

 

Therefore Missile Salvo and to a lesser extant Great Maelstorm have higher chance of hitting.
Missile Salvo usually hit the "main center target" with all its projectiles.

 

 

3) What is special about Maelstorm

 

Maelstorm is doubled by a classic pulsating effect which AoE is 5m extendable by INT. However, only the "red" part of the UI display matters for the random component.

 

I said random secondary AoE can happen at any position within the initial random AoE.

That isn't true for Maelstorm though. Maelstrom pick up a random valid target within its initial AoE and applies its 2.5m AoE to hit.

 

This means :

- Maelstorm random pulses will ALWAYS hit something (as long as there is at least one valdi target in the RED AoE)

- If there is a single valid target within Maelstorm RED AoE, it will get all the pulses (with 20 INT : 4 Frost/Crush pulses and 8 Shock/Fire random pulses. Goodbye !)

- If your foes are clumped within the RED AoE, they will get all the Pulse (originating from one of them)

 

That is one of the reason why Maelstorm feels so powerful

But also unique. Now that you know the rules, you are free to use them in a smart way !

Edited October 9, 2022 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

Side notes :

 

Maelstrom benefits from PL from all its Keyword for all of its attack.

But other bonus (PEN Elemental Talents, Ring of Focused Flames) only works with the right attack (Frost bonus for the pulse effect, Fire and Shock for the random pulse... except Community Patch keyworded this random pulse Frost, so if you play with CP, you can get +1 PEN From Secrets of Rime too. I think this is a minor bug @MaxQuest)

 

Maelstorm displays a PEN of 7, but that's only true for the frost/crush part.

The Fire/Shock part has 9 PEN.

(both these base values get a +4 PEN for being from a Tier 9 ability)

 

Magran's Might displays Interrupt on Crit but Interrupt on Hit. This is a bug too.

Actually Magran's Might roll 2 times : 1 dummy roll that does nothing else than interrupting on Hit (normal interrupt), and the actual attack that Interrupt on Crit (Prone this time). That's why Magran's Might sometimes interrupts normally, and sometimes knock you down.

EDIT : No it does not and does not cause Prone.

This is most likely an oversight and I will probably address it with BPM by showing only Interrupt on Hit causing Prone (this is a Tier 9 spell so I thin it's good this way).

Edited October 9, 2022 by Elric Galad

[Constentin Lévine]

18 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Storm of Holy Fire                           Initial 5m,    Secondary 1.5m 

- Minoletta's Missile Salvo                 Initial 2.5m, Secondary 1.5m

- Meteor Shower                                Initial 5m,    Secondary 1.5m 

- Great Maestorm                              Initial 5m,    Secondary 2.5m (not displayed by the ability)

The Blast Radius Override is not the real radius I think, that is determinate by the Blast Size (medium mean 4m I think, there are some same Blast Size with different Radius Override like Eyestrike (medium, override 5), Mental Binding (medium, override 2), Secret Horror (medium, override 0). For Magran's Might, the Blast Size is Override, with an override : 0.5, since only the target is concerned. 

I dont know how that work, but Eyestrike is not larger than Secret Horror. 

Concerning Great Maelstrom, the Pulse Aoe (freeze/crush) is Large (like the Whiting Wind) and the other AoE (fire/shock) is Medium, like Leap (Blast Size Medium, blast radius override 2.5).

There is 4m between Birta and me, for example. Great Maelstrom is bigger.

[Constentin Lévine]

Superposed : the 4m range limit to the Animal Companion invocation (around the character on the left), and the Leap AoE without int bonus (int never influe on the base AoE but the "friendly" one , at less positively) (BlastSize : Medium).

It is the same AoE (also for the "friendly" supplement from int which I removed for clarity) for Leap, Eye Strike, Secret Horrors, etc. So I really dont know what does mean the Blast Radius Override you mention.

 

BlastSize String (BlastSize)	Preset values for blast size. Characters within this distance will be affected by the attack. "Medium"
BlastRadiusOverride Single	Overide raidus for blast size value.

 from https://eternity.obsidian.net/game-data-formats/components#statuseffectcomponent.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Constentin Lévine

[Elric Galad]

The blast radius indeed mostly depends in priority on "Blast radius" data :

- "Large" : 5m

- "Medium" : 2.5m

- "Small" : 1.5

- If blast size is equal to "Override", the ability uses the Override value instead.

Often Override value is set in the gamedata file to the "right" value (example : if blast size is Small, they put 1.5 in Override value) but it's not actually used.

 

For Maelstrom, there are 3 AoE :

- Large 5m extended by INT for the crush/frost pulse
- Large 5m NOT extended by INT for the hazard zone
- Medium 2.5m extended by INT centered on a random target within the hazard zone for the shock/fire pulse

(see above, I described the later 2 after saying the crush/frost pulse works like any classic pulse spell)

Edited October 9, 2022 by Elric Galad

[Constentin Lévine]

I thought you spoke about AoE size, not AoE radius ( sorry I was tired, didnt think to look into the in-game spell description and confused the radius and the size (diameter) ! 

[Elric Galad]

Now that I have the actual number about Maelstorm :

This spell indeed feels quite above the curve, even for a tier 9 spells.

 

1) Choosing a "Benchmark"

 

I loved spamming Minoletta's Missile Salvo as SC Wiz. This spell basically sniped a couple of foes and certainly feels powerful.

I'm using it to compare because :

- it is considered a good spell, and feel relevant enough to go SC Wiz
- it scales similarly with INT, MIG, PL
- its projectiles have high chance to connect because the impact per projectile / random radius radio is 0.6. Maelstrom has 0.5 but since it auto-targets at least one potential target, I consider it has similar chances of hitting foes within its area   

 

Without taking into account Intellect, Might, Power Level, its base damages are :

(12 ticks - 1 for random pulse spell) x 20,5 damages = 225,5 base damages

With good multiplicative stats, it's no surprise that it can one shot foes !

 

Now Great Maelstorm used vs 1 foe (all random pulses will hit that 1 foe) :

(6 ticks - 1 for random pulse spell) x 50 damages + (2 pulse tick +1 for pulse spells) x 38 damages = 364 base damages

 

Both are dual type of damages, but Maelstorm has 7 PEN on first effect and 9 PEN on the second one.

Maelstorm has a much wider AoE, but it must be said that Salvo does its damages almost instantly (3.75s at max Intellect) so that's surely something in its favor.

I would expect both spells to have similar performance in term of damages and PEN. As calculated above it is not the case.

 

2) Proposed reasonable nerf for Maelstorm :

 

Pulse attack :                36-40 damages, 7 PEN ->  36-40 damages, 6 PEN

Random Pulse attack : 40-60 damages, 9 PEN ->  35-45 damages, 6 PEN (EDIT : changed a bit from first version considering the massive damages from Meteor Shower)

New damages computation :

(6 ticks - 1 for random pulse spell) x 40 damages + (2 pulse tick +1 for pulse spells) x 38 damages = 314 base damages

That's still higher than Salvo (I don't want to destroy Maeltstorm either) but significantly less.

 

Justifications :

- PEN nerf feels good IMHO. Note that as a Tier 9 ability, it gets a natural +4 PEN on top of everything it gets from PL. It makes picking PEN Talents and Fury subclass more relevant. It corrects the weirdness of a displayed PEN of 7 while a part of the spell is actually different. It makes Maelstorm less efficient vs some part of your foes, so you're less likely to auto-win everything, while being still relevant vs many foes.

- The random part ticks more and can really be abused by proper placement, once you have read this thread and become aware of Maelstorm targetting. Knowledge is power. This thread is a kind of Maelstorm buff in disguise .

 

Also I plan to out back KW as in vanilla :

- Both attacks get the Elements KW (Storm was missing from the attacks ; not sure it is intended but only Lord Dalryn's Voulge affect this KW AFAIK, and Lord Dalryn's Voulge affects PL so having the KW at ability level is enough)
- Random pulse get the Electricity, Fire and Wind KW as in vanilla game.
- Pulse get the Water KW as in vanilla game.

Quite symetric this way. I know CP added the Frost KW because of the Cold damages, but I think the Water KW made the spell more unique. It has specific interaction with Tekehu (with Revku Cloak, he can stand in Maelstorm unarmed ; with Amira's Wing, he can be immune to the cold attack and gets +15 defense vs the random fire/shock) and next BPM version of Fire Shield (will be immune to Frost but as currently be extinguished by Water). Water benefits from the same Talent as Frost. 

CP adding Frost KW to the Fire / Shock attack was probably an oversight  

The spell is about "cold Water" (as it appear in the description) as Boiling Spray was about "hot water". It makes some sense that cold Water target Fortitude while actual Hail (Frost KW) targets Reflex.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

I would compare Maelstrom to Meteor Shower because I think that those two are more similar/comparable in size an "feel" - and also Meteor Shower is potentially more devastating than Missile Salvo (bigger base and proc AoEs, higher base dmg, longer duration, more potential for PL boosting than Missile Salvo). At least when I was testing and comaring both Missile Salvo and Meteor Shower the latter was able to kill groups of random high level enemies with one cast while Missile Salvo could not.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

10 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I would compare Maelstrom to Meteor Shower because I think that those two are more similar/comparable in size an "feel" - and also Meteor Shower is potentially more devastating than Missile Salvo (bigger base and proc AoEs, higher base dmg, longer duration, more potential for PL boosting than Missile Salvo). At least when I was testing and comaring both Missile Salvo and Meteor Shower the latter was able to kill groups of random high level enemies with one cast while Missile Salvo could not.

Meteor Shower has similar PEN as Missile Salvo (7 PEN single type). That's the easiest part of the comparison (but at least justifies the PEN nerf)

 

Without taking into account Intellect, Might, Power Level, Meteor base damages (without DoT) are :

(16 ticks - 1 for random pulse spell) x 28 damages = 420 base damages

 

The issue is that one has to probabilizes the chances of hitting something with the individual missile since they're only 1.5m per missile within 5m radius. You have to add a ratio to the preceding formula, in defavor of Meteor Shower. Except if you use it against Hauani O Whe, of course, which I strongly recommand   

The normal pulse of Maelstorm has 100% chances of applying.

The random pulse of Maelstorm is 3x bigger (2.5² vs 1.5² radius) than Meteor Shower and always hit a target. 

 

DoT can be seen as happening more or less for the 8s duration + 4s of DoT, provided Meteors refreshes it often. That's (8+1(intial tick)+4) x 6 = 78 damages with about 100% probability. 

EDIT : So that's about 78 damages vs 114 damages for the fixed part (DoT scales slightly better but won't apply to the whole 5m+INT radius of the pulsating part ; the DoT number feels slightly optimistic).

And 250 (150 with nerf ; EDIT 200 with second version of nerf) vs 420 damages for the random part, with much higher chances (thrice bigger AoE, auto-target a foe) to actually hit for Maelstorm. Unless speaking of a very big target. That's why non-avian Dinosaurs were killed by Meteors   

I do think the damage nerf is (at least partially) justified.

Maelstrom would still have for it :
- Multiple PL abuses through items
- random targetting can be used in a smart fashion (if you manage to have 1 target within the RED area, all of the AoE will connect on it)
- Much higher range 
- Happens on a slightly faster delay (6s vs 8s + DoT)

 

I'm also thinking about buffing a bit more Tornado a bit more. BPM Tornado has 10m radius and Interrupt on Graze.

I plan to change :
- 7 PEN -> 9 PEN (more PEN than Maelstrom)
- 45-72 damages -> 55-88

Edited October 10, 2022 by Elric Galad

[Constentin Lévine]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

Except if you use it against Hauani O Whe, of course, which I strongly recommand   

But not Maelstrom?  

Symbols (tiers 8, so 2 regular casts) deal at the base 245-350 in a medium AoE +affliction or buff. They are foe-only.

Their duration scale with a similar influence for their damage : +50% base pulses per +10 int (7 at 10int, 11 at 20int (385-550 "base"damage), 21 at 35int(735-1050 "base"damage)) 

I know you are speaking about AoERandom but it is not out of subject.

I dont really understand why do you want to nerf Maelstrom but recommand some other OP spells (and also why do you tweak some powerful stuffs to make them OP but that is out of subject). To make them equivalent maybe? This is not a reproach but a simple question.

[NotDumbEnough]

The symbol spells have lower penetration, quite low cast range and deal their damage over a longer duration (i.e. you cannot cast from stealth and kill everything before they ever reach you).

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Constentin Lévine said:

But not Maelstrom?  

Maelstrom works too, but I won't be shocked if Meteor Shower was better in this context.

Maelstrom might be better for later phase, when one need to dispell many small oozes quickly.

1 hour ago, Constentin Lévine said:

Symbols (tiers 8, so 2 regular casts) deal at the base 245-350 in a medium AoE +affliction or buff. They are foe-only.

Their duration scale with a similar influence for their damage : +50% base pulses per +10 int (7 at 10int, 11 at 20int (385-550 "base"damage), 21 at 35int(735-1050 "base"damage)) 

I know you are speaking about AoERandom but it is not out of subject.

It is not indeed. Symbols are base ~300 average in my book.

(I wondered about Symbols too, but I haven't written everything.)

So pretty compatable with Maeltrom nerfed version.

Symbols work much slower, that's the main reason. Maelstrom happens in about 10s with good INT.
 

1 hour ago, Constentin Lévine said:

I dont really understand why do you want to nerf Maelstrom but recommand some other OP spells

My initial question was : "is Maelstrom above the curve of OP Tier 9 spells ?"

Because other people stated it  (and because I wanted to understand)

The numbers are complicated to interpret, but it seems to me that it is the case.

1 hour ago, Constentin Lévine said:

(and also why do you tweak some powerful stuffs to make them OP but that is out of subject).

Are you speaking about Tornado ? I don't think it is really powerful (but I might be wrong indeed). I think the consensus is that it is not that much for a Tier 9. 

Buffing its PEN while nerfing Maelstrom's PEN was a way to distinguish them more (which is easier to make both valuable than makes them direct concurrent)

And the damages felt a bit low. I could also go for PEN 10 (as Eld Nary windy cousin) and not change damages.

Anyway, if I make some powerfull stuff OP, it is not the intention (but might be the actual result  )

1 hour ago, Constentin Lévine said:

To make them equivalent maybe? This is not a reproach but a simple question.

To make 2 spell of the same tier "usable". You can do it by 2 means :

• To make them different enough, so each one has its niche
• To make them of equivalent raw power (quite subjective in certain cases, like comparing potatoes and democracy). If the gap in "power" is too high, even if both have niche, you won't use the "weaker" much unless desperate circonstances. 

The later is especially important for Tier 9 because you have 1 cast of it, so you really want to use it in an optimal manner. Also Ability point are scarse on Tier 9 (For casters, 1 will go to Prestige, so only 2 points).

Edited October 10, 2022 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

2 minutes ago, NotDumbEnough said:

The symbol spells have lower penetration, quite low cast range and deal their damage over a longer duration (i.e. you cannot cast from stealth and kill everything before they ever reach you).

I do think that Maelstrom PEN nerf is quite hard to debate. All comparable spells have either 7 PEN or 6 PEN dual types.

Damage-wise, I think the topic is much more complicated though. That's why I write my reasoning, so people can react.

[Constentin Lévine]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

2 hours ago, Constentin Lévine said:

(and also why do you tweak some powerful stuffs to make them OP but that is out of subject).

Are you speaking about Tornado ? I don't think it is really powerful (but I might be wrong indeed). I think the consensus is that it is not that much for a Tier 9. 

Actually not, I was thinking about your version of Entropy : because of auto-hit and duration (12s base!), you are able to One-Shot everyone including Dorudugan. You only need Mohora Tanga, or Effort, good Per (enought for at less always hit) and Avenging Storm or Boltcatcher. You dont need swift flurry for that.  (I didnt mention it in the related topic to not ruin the Entropy's BPM users 's experience).

About Tornado, I suggest to you somethink that can make sens : the Vertical Launch duration (here :0) can be made in function to the height of the effect. (Mule kick 7m, 1.5s ; Skyward kick 10m, 1.5s (>>2.2s) ; Launching kick 10m, 0s (>>2.2s) ; Tornado 15m, 0s (>>3.3s)) Entre Parenthèses some value scaling with int that take into account the height on the Mule Kick model (/4.5). But that can also climb by spell's level.

 

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

My initial question was : "is Maelstrom above the curve of OP Tier 9 spells ?"

Maybe, instead of a Similar Classes comparison (3 spellcasters, 2 spell-regen, 3 martial offensives, 2 martial support/tank) another question can be posed :

"is Maelstrom above the curve of Druid power?" I mean, Pollen Patch can be increased to env. 20 heal/sec/patch (staying immobile count for 1 patch) for the whole party for an extendable duration. (PP and Entropy (unmodded, because as you said, knowledge is power) are my favorite and most used spells with my druid).

Touch of Death destroy any Near Death vs will, in addition to Constitution debuffs from Venombloom or Plague of Insect (-25% base health) a boss fight can be quickly done. Speaking about megabosses, that can be more significant than Maelstrom. 

Druid's Insect DoT spell at tiers 9 could be, in the spirit of the curve, an empowered version of Plague of Insect with a good natality for them, so like Toxic Strike in AoE (scaling with Beast and Rejuvenation KW) ; or a spell version of the IRL locust cloud, I dont know. In the fact, the tiers 9 spells that are unpowered for a druid are summons, but all the curve is low, and Tornado (Tornado seems to shine for the 15m launch in the code, but that have no effect so..). 

But that is only my opinion, yours is not less valuable even for me! 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Constentin Lévine

[masterty66]

I always have a lot of trouble using Meteor Shower because the range is so small on it. So usually lazy and just use Missile Salvo.

I need to try MS more. 

[Elric Galad]

6 hours ago, Constentin Lévine said:

Actually not, I was thinking about your version of Entropy : because of auto-hit and duration (12s base!), you are able to One-Shot everyone including Dorudugan. You only need Mohora Tanga, or Effort, good Per (enought for at less always hit) and Avenging Storm or Boltcatcher. You dont need swift flurry for that.  (I didnt mention it in the related topic to not ruin the Entropy's BPM users 's experience).

Yes, but it doesn't matter much because it is a multi combination combo. You really need to build for it, so won't run into it randomly.

I could theoritically nerf it (it's like 1 parameter chance by item, so not much... well... Effort) but it won't affect BPM experience unless one wants it deliberately. And if one wants it deliberately, well, why forbid it.

6 hours ago, Constentin Lévine said:

About Tornado, I suggest to you somethink that can make sens : the Vertical Launch duration (here :0) can be made in function to the height of the effect. (Mule kick 7m, 1.5s ; Skyward kick 10m, 1.5s (>>2.2s) ; Launching kick 10m, 0s (>>2.2s) ; Tornado 15m, 0s (>>3.3s)) Entre Parenthèses some value scaling with int that take into account the height on the Mule Kick model (/4.5). But that can also climb by spell's level.

Totally make sense indeed.

I think I will add this to Tornado, set its PEN to 10 as I thought, and not change its damages.

And the 2 other abilties needed a bit of fun anyway.

EDIT : rounded down to 10m->2s and 15m->3s 

6 hours ago, Constentin Lévine said:

Maybe, instead of a Similar Classes comparison (3 spellcasters, 2 spell-regen, 3 martial offensives, 2 martial support/tank) another question can be posed :

Missing one

6 hours ago, Constentin Lévine said:

"is Maelstrom above the curve of Druid power?" I mean, Pollen Patch can be increased to env. 20 heal/sec/patch (staying immobile count for 1 patch) for the whole party for an extendable duration. (PP and Entropy (unmodded, because as you said, knowledge is power) are my favorite and most used spells with my druid).

Touch of Death destroy any Near Death vs will, in addition to Constitution debuffs from Venombloom or Plague of Insect (-25% base health) a boss fight can be quickly done. Speaking about megabosses, that can be more significant than Maelstrom. 

Druid's Insect DoT spell at tiers 9 could be, in the spirit of the curve, an empowered version of Plague of Insect with a good natality for them, so like Toxic Strike in AoE (scaling with Beast and Rejuvenation KW) ; or a spell version of the IRL locust cloud, I dont know. In the fact, the tiers 9 spells that are unpowered for a druid are summons, but all the curve is low, and Tornado (Tornado seems to shine for the 15m launch in the code, but that have no effect so..). 

But that is only my opinion, yours is not less valuable even for me! 

I'm currently pretty happy with the current status of Tier 9 druid abilities in BPM. 

Aspect of Galawain Interrupt on Hit, Finger of Death with accuracy bonus is the most reliable finisher (with Marux Amanth) and Pollen Patch... well... heal well enough.

Maelstrom may need a little nerf (I'm tuning down my initial plan to a total of 314 damages... something like 30-50 for secondary random pulse is enough of a nerf), and Tornado a little buff (the one you suggest + PEN 10 + the previous ones). 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

Bumped for @Shai Hulud