2h single target dps build

[ybducu]

Hey all,

Recently got the game and I'm loving it.

I'm struggling though to find a 2h build that is effective from early to end game. It just seems that 2h never is the optimal choice.
Rogue seems obvious with its non lash damage bonuses. Only problem is that 2h doesn't seem optimal for rogue with its full attack abilities and dual wielding just being stronger in general. It's just a shame dual wield speed bonus is way stronger than the damage difference between 1h and 2h weapons.
Even the canonical greatsword wielding paladin is more efficient dual wielding because Flames of Devotion is also a full attack.
So what's left seems to be a 0 recovery 2h build that doesn't use full attacks. Which is only possible with consumables. Maybe ranger with Swift Aim and Wounding Shot?

I've tried to avoid min maxing but I feel this is not entirely the same thing. It's just not fun constantly having in the back of your head that you haven't made optimal use of limited resources when you're Flame-of-Devotion-ing with your greatsword.

Thanks for reading so far I'm still new to the game so I'm probably missing something. Looking for any advice on an effective 2h build.

[Boeroer]

Generally speaking two handers are best as soon as you encounter high DR foes while dual wielding is better against "softer" targets. But yes: Full Attacks cry for a dual wielding setup with heavy one handed weapons (maces, sabres and so on). 

Buy the Belt of the Royal Deadfire Cannoneer at Anslög's Compass and later get Forgemaster Gloves in Crucible Keep - you will have 6 uses of Firebrand per rest. Firebrand is a flaming great sword with very hig high base damage. Carnage will do a lot of damage that way, too. Use a Barbarian - as soon as you get Blood Thirst this build wrecks every encounter with mobs and ads. 

Tidefall is the weapon with the highest potential dps in the game because its wounding lash stacks with itself. It also scales with MIG. So use a character with very high MIG and lowish INT (Tidefalls' wounding lash just gets strechted over several ticks - the higher the INT the longer the duration of the lash - but the smaller the individual ticks. Short duration = fewer but higher ticks, longer duration = more but lower ticks). A Rogue works well but a Barbarian does as well - because Carnage will also apply the draining of Tidefall to enemies in an AoE which helps to stay alive. 

Another thing is to use a melee Ranger with a Wolf and use Tidefall's wounding damage (ove time) to unlock the wolf's "Predator's Sense" at all times. Add the other damaging abilites for the Animal Companion. Since the animal's base(!) damage scales with level it soon will hit like a truck. And your dps will be good too because of Swift Aim, high MIG and good DEX etc. 

Use Tall Grass, Hours of Saint Rumbalt or the Temperacl and give it to a Barbarian. The prone or stun on crit also works with Carnage. You can prone or stun whole groups with this.

Use Half Mast and later the Blade of the Endless Paths with a Darcozzi Paladin and combine them with Coordinated Attacks and Zealous Focus. The Darcozzi can give +10 ACC to an individual (stacks with everything), then +10 ACC again (Coordinated Attacks), then +10 from the marking weapon (Half Mast or Blade of the Endless Paths) and finally the points from Zealous Focus. Any other party member he joins in a fight against an enemy and who is nearest to him can get over 30 bonus accuracy that way - which is extremely good. It's easy to even hit and crit dragons reliably with such a Paladin in the party. It's more like enabling a fellow party member, the Paladin will do okay but not tremendous damage by himself - but it's still extremely helpful. ALl those ACC bonuses stack with a Priest's Inspiring Radiance (+10) and Devotions spell (+20). So  a Priest and such a Paladin can give a party member more than +60 bonus accuracy.

A good two hander for a Cipher is Justice. It has a "secret" additional crushing lash that adds to any lash you put on it. Lashes generate focus, too. Ciphers don't have Full Attacks but Time Parasite which is a way to get to 0 recovery with a Two Hander. And the little additional lash gives focus faster. Often overlooked but works quite well. Also Justice comes pretty early. 

Edited August 15, 2022 by Boeroer

[ybducu]

Awesome thanks for the comprehensive reply.

The uber accuracy stacking paladin seems especially interesting to me.

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Buy the Belt of the Royal Deadfire Cannoneer at Anslög's Compass and later get Forgemaster Gloves in Crucible Keep - you will have 6 uses of Firebrand per rest. Firebrand is a flaming great sword with very hig high base damage. Carnage will do a lot of damage that way, too. Use a Barbarian - as soon as you get Blood Thirst this build wrecks every encounter with mobs and ads. 

Yeah I know about firebrand. Hard to miss when you start googling stuff about pillars mechanics (as are your comments  ) It feels a bit gimicky though. Like the devs knew the balance between 2h and dual wield was less than optimal so they added this over tuned thing all classes can use. Still Blood Thirst barbarian with firebrand is definitely something I want to try at some point.

Quote

Tidefall is the weapon with the highest potential dps in the game because its wounding lash stacks with itself. It also scales with MIG. So use a character with very high MIG and lowish INT (Tidefalls' wounding lash just gets strechted over several ticks - the higher the INT the longer the duration of the lash - but the smaller the individual ticks. Short duration = fewer but higher ticks, longer duration = more but lower ticks). A Rogue works well but a Barbarian does as well - because Carnage will also apply the draining of Tidefall to enemies in an AoE which helps to stay alive.

The wounding lash stacking is awesome. Is this the only instance where a dot from the same source stacks? And to be clear, stacking here means every hit increases the tick damage right? Not just refresh the duration? Also does carnage apply the wounding to all targets in addition to the draining? I think I'm going with a plain armored grace fighter using tidefall relying on Potion of Deleterious Alacrity of Motion. You can easily sustain a healthy supply of those right?

Quote

Use Half Mast and later the Blade of the Endless Paths with a Darcozzi Paladin and combine them with Coordinated Attacks and Zealous Focus. The Darcozzi can give +10 ACC to an individual (stacks with everything), then +10 ACC again (Coordinated Attacks), then +10 from the marking weapon (Half Mast or Blade of the Endless Paths) and finally the points from Zealous Focus. Any other party member he joins in a fight against an enemy and who is nearest to him can get over 30 bonus accuracy that way - which is extremely good. It's easy to even hit and crit dragons reliably with such a Paladin in the party. It's more like enabling a fellow party member, the Paladin will do okay but not tremendous damage by himself - but it's still extremely helpful. ALl those ACC bonuses stack with a Priest's Inspiring Radiance (+10) and Devotions spell (+20). So  a Priest and such a Paladin can give a party member more than +60 bonus accuracy.

Also something I want to try at some point. Is there a general rule for what stacks and what gets suppressed? I saw for example that the accuracy part of Blessing gets suppressed by Zealous Focus.

Quote

A good two hander for a Cipher is Justice. It has a "secret" additional crushing lash that adds to any lash you put on it. Lashes generate focus, too. Ciphers don't have Full Attacks but Time Parasite which is a way to get to 0 recovery with a Two Hander. And the little additional lash gives focus faster. Often overlooked but works quite well. Also Justice comes pretty early. 

I thought I tried adding a lash to Justice and wasn't able to because it already had one. I could be mistaken tho. This would certainly make the weapon more interesting .Cipher seems very cool too, a bit like a fantasy jedi class They get 40% weapon damage from their soul whip right? That's more than fighter gets. Another thing I have to try out.

Like I said in the op, loving this games and loads of things still to explore.

Just to come back to the original question. If you had to make a single target dps build that relies mainly on 2h for its damage, what would you make?

[Boeroer]

On 8/16/2022 at 4:59 PM, ybducu said:

It feels a bit gimicky though. Like the devs knew the balance between 2h and dual wield was less than optimal so they added this over tuned thing all classes can use. 

Don't think that was the devs' reasoning. All two handed summoned melee weapons I can think of (Firebrand, Parasitic Staff, Spirit Lance) have 30 base damage (which is way higher than a normal weapon of the same kind). Firebrand is the only one which can be used by another class though. I guess they just wanted to give everybody the chance to wield a cool flaming sword.  

A fully enchanted and durganized Great Sword like Tidefall or Hours of St. Rumbalt usually does more dps - mainly because it will be faster. And the lash and better accuracy and dmg mod will balance out the lower base dmg. 

At lower levels however, Firebrand is just awesome.

On 8/16/2022 at 4:59 PM, ybducu said:

The wounding lash stacking is awesome. Is this the only instance where a dot from the same source stacks? And to be clear, stacking here means every hit increases the tick damage right? 

Drawn in Spring (dagger), Persistence (hunting bow), Acuan Giamas (morning star) and Boar Tusks (Spiritshifted Druid) do the same. 

Stacking means in this case that with every hit there will be a new independent instance of the wounding applied - while the old one still ticks for damage until it's over. They get overlaid. So you can apply multiple "parallel" damage over time effects. The outcome is the same as if the tick damage increased.

On 8/16/2022 at 4:59 PM, ybducu said:

 Also does carnage apply the wounding to all targets in addition to the draining?

It does. All on hit/crit efftects of melee weapon translate to Carnage. 

On 8/16/2022 at 4:59 PM, ybducu said:

 I think I'm going with a plain armored grace fighter using tidefall relying on Potion of Deleterious Alacrity of Motion. You can easily sustain a healthy supply of those right?

No idea, I never used consumables except in Ultimate runs. Fighter is a rel. weak class in the later levels, at least on PotD difficulty. Charge is very good, but it's again best with a dual wielding setup.

On 8/16/2022 at 4:59 PM, ybducu said:

Also something I want to try at some point. Is there a general rule for what stacks and what gets suppressed? I saw for example that the accuracy part of Blessing gets suppressed by Zealous Focus.

It is complicated. The general rule is that passives stack with everything. Talents that upgrade abilities (like Inspiring Radiance for example but also Inspired Liberation etc.) are considered passive (don't ask me why). Then anything from the weapon slots stacks with everything. So a Marking enchantment stacks its ACC with everything. All active buffs however suppress each other if they address the same stat. Blessing and Zealous Focus (both considered active effects) will suppress each other (the higher prevails). But now Devotions for the Faithful doesn't technically give an universal acc bonus but only to melee and range. And that's enough that the game considers it an effect that won't suppress a universal acc bonus like Blessing. I believe Tactical Meld (Cipher) also stacks with everything because it's implemented like Marking (but not 100% sure anymore). 

On 8/16/2022 at 4:59 PM, ybducu said:

I thought I tried adding a lash to Justice and wasn't able to because it already had one. I could be mistaken tho. This would certainly make the weapon more interesting .Cipher seems very cool too, a bit like a fantasy jedi class They get 40% weapon damage from their soul whip right?

Sorry - I forgot that Justice comes with a 25% crushing lash on it. Thus you can't put a burning or other elemental lash on it. But it has an additional, secondary 10% crushing lash on it. You can see it besides the dmg value in the weapon description iirc. So it has a 25% crushing lash and a 10% crushing lash. Lashes have to overcome enemies' DR (armor) separately, but only 1/4th of it. So the 10% lash can somethimes get nullified by thick armor. So it's good to lower enemies' DR value. DR bypass doesn't work for lashes. So only lowering enemies' DR benefits lash damage and high dmg per hit, too.

 

On 8/16/2022 at 4:59 PM, ybducu said:

 They get 40% weapon damage from their soul whip right? That's more than fighter gets. Another thing I have to try out.

Yes, they also get Time Parasite which can speed you up like crazy if you hit enough first. Also Borrowed Instincts. A Cipher can deal a lot more weapon dps than for example a Fighter can. But once his focus is full Soul Whip (+40% dmg) turns off. So you have to use some focus from time to time to keep the 40% dmg bonus.  

On 8/16/2022 at 4:59 PM, ybducu said:

Just to come back to the original question. If you had to make a single target dps build that relies mainly on 2h for its damage, what would you make?

I guess a Rogue with Tidefall, maxed MIG, high DEX, low INT. Add Runner's Wounding Shot to the usual Rogue strikes (Crippling, Blinding etc.). Could also do Backstabs from stealth and wear the Cape of the Master Mystic to become invisible after a received crit for another Backstab.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Boeroer

[ybducu]

Thanks again!

You gave a perfectly clear and concise answer to every single one of my questions.

I saw comments of yours from as far back as 2015. Do you still play the game?

[Boeroer]

No, I registered here when PoE came out and then I pretty much stopped playing PoE once Deadfire's beta came out. Two or three little runs after that maybe. 

But I ran it a couple of thousand hours (according to Steam) and also discussed a lot about its mechanics and character ideas here in the PoE forums back in the day. Also wrote a lot of builds (see the build list here in the sorum) - that's why most of the mechanics are still present to me. Some details might be lost though or get mixed up with Deadfire stuff.

 

 

[Veshialle]

On 8/16/2022 at 1:50 AM, Boeroer said:

Buy the Belt of the Royal Deadfire Cannoneer at Anslög's Compass and later get Forgemaster Gloves in Crucible Keep - you will have 6 uses of Firebrand per rest. Firebrand is a flaming great sword with very hig high base damage. Carnage will do a lot of damage that way, too. Use a Barbarian - as soon as you get Blood Thirst this build wrecks every encounter with mobs and ads.

Use Half Mast and later the Blade of the Endless Paths with a Darcozzi Paladin and combine them with Coordinated Attacks and Zealous Focus. The Darcozzi can give +10 ACC to an individual (stacks with everything), then +10 ACC again (Coordinated Attacks), then +10 from the marking weapon (Half Mast or Blade of the Endless Paths) and finally the points from Zealous Focus. Any other party member he joins in a fight against an enemy and who is nearest to him can get over 30 bonus accuracy that way - which is extremely good. It's easy to even hit and crit dragons reliably with such a Paladin in the party. It's more like enabling a fellow party member, the Paladin will do okay but not tremendous damage by himself - but it's still extremely helpful. ALl those ACC bonuses stack with a Priest's Inspiring Radiance (+10) and Devotions spell (+20). So  a Priest and such a Paladin can give a party member more than +60 bonus accuracy.

 

Pallegina is better with Firebrand scenario or Half Mast & BoTEP?

[Boeroer]

On a Paladin I would prefer Half-Mast/BotEP. Marking + Coordinated Attacks is just too good to pass up.

Firebrand is good on Barbs, Rogues and Ciphers. Also not bad on Paladins - but they can be more useful with the setup above imo. 

 

[Desmodeus]

For twohanded paladins there is also possibility of Tidefall Goldpact Knight. Enduring flame damage is X over Y dot so it becomes stronger the less Int character has. Same goes for tidefall wounding

So 21 mig 3 int aumaua GK paladin from Living land can do quite decent damage through swinging high base damage tidefall with fully boosted FoD + Scion of flame. 

[Boeroer]

That is right and fun to play.

My problem with that approach is that a Paladin only has 2 uses of FoD per encounter. That stinks a bit the longer the fights get (PotD 0 more enemies and higher defenses and HP, later game a lot more enemies and HP in general).

One could add Runner's Wounding Shot (works the same) to get to 3 high dmg DoT attacks per encounter... but overall - and especially in the later stages of the game - I prefer the marking weapons for a Paladin - because they deliver great support at all times without any limited resource cost. And they'll do good enough dmg with FoD as well (to take out some casters quickly or so). 

[Desmodeus]

True but on other hand wounding lash of Tidefall with 3 int is very potent as well. Its obviously not ranger but I'd say it about as good as tidefall fighter. Maybe even better as it still have really powerful heals and revive - 21 Mig is good on those things xD

But yeah, overall marking is better. Especially if you go with Darkozzi

[dunehunter]

The DoT duration got fixed from around 2017, so no matter how low your INT is, it won't affect DoT duration anymore.

[Boeroer]

I know that this is the case for stuff like Wounding Shot, Goldpact's Fire DoT and so on - but I think wounding lashes from weapons and boar tusks were not affected (and low INT still raises their dps) - but I'm not 100% sure. 

[dunehunter]

9 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I know that this is the case for stuff like Wounding Shot, Goldpact's Fire DoT and so on - but I think wounding lashes from weapons and boar tusks were not affected (and low INT still raises their dps) - but I'm not 100% sure. 

I'm curious about a 2hander goldpact build so I tested this, both Enduring Flames's DoT and Tidefall's Lash has fixed duration now.

[Boeroer]

That's great. Dumping INT in order to raise DPS always seemed pretty silly.

[dunehunter]

I was planning to use your dumbest paladin build, too bad to find this has been fixed. So dumping INT still works if I doesn't pick much abilities that's affected by INT, but not as spicy as before. Enduring Flames takes 10 seconds to do full damage is too slow.

[dunehunter]

On 4/23/2024 at 12:19 AM, Boeroer said:

I know that this is the case for stuff like Wounding Shot, Goldpact's Fire DoT and so on - but I think wounding lashes from weapons and boar tusks were not affected (and low INT still raises their dps) - but I'm not 100% sure. 

I'm testing this myself and firstly I thought this got fixed because my Enduring Flames last 10 sec, then I realize that's because My Goldpact has INT of 5, and Enduring Flames has duration of 10, it is firstly reduce by INT by 30% -> 7 seconds, then critical hit increase it's duration by x1.5 so it ends up being 10.5 seconds. So I was confused by this 10.5 seconds earlier and thought it's patched.

Based on MaxQuest's formula here: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/91903-question-about-dots-and-hots/#comment-1893595

Fixed DoT's total damage is only affected by Might, not hit_quality_modifier, however duration is affected by hit_quality_modifier... And this results in a stupid conclusion, Crit on Enduring Flames increase it's total duration, which leads to more ticks being eaten by DR lol.

In some extreme case, for example you have 20 INT, if you crit on FoD and Enduring Flames will last 22.5 seconds. Although your FoD damage is increased by 50%, but that's additive bonus so not actually x1.5 more damage, it's way less than that if you have other additive damage bonus. But Enduring Flames takes so long to tick that it's per tick damage might be completely eaten by DR in this case....

NOTE: I also found the Solitary gauntlet fits a low INT build very well, as it's actually an aura to check if there's any allies nearby. This aura is reduced by INT  So a dumbest character can stand beside an ally and still benefit from the solitary buff. From what I read, it increase your MIN damage by 25%, so potentially increase average damage by 10%. This is a multiplier on average DPS, not additive so very powerful.

Edited May 6 by dunehunter