Request for input on a few potential builds

[crdvis16]

I'm preparing for my 4th playthrough and wanted to try some more new subclass/multiclass combinations.  I was hoping people might have some feedback on these ideas in case people know that they either don't work at all or might be able to give me insight into how they play out.  In case it matters, I would plan to play using the community and balance polish patches.

1) A Druid (Ancient subclass) with a few items that seem to be specifically targeted to them:

-Lance of the Midwood Stag with the upgrade that gives +2 power levels when affected by Plant/Beast status affects (I assume that means things like Form of the Delemgen would give me the +2 power level?) 
-Vion-Ceth (Hatchet with bonus damage to enemies affected by Plant status)
-Spine of the Thicket Green (staff with +3 all Plant/Beast ability levels upgrade)

At first glance I would probably go Spine of the Thicket Green with Vion-Ceth as my backup.

I'm also wondering if Cauldron Shard (chance to gain health when doing poison/acid damage) might also work into this build?  Some of the plant based spells are also poison keyworded.

Are there other items that feed into an Ancient Druid build?  Also, how are Fire Stag and Aspect of Galawain as high level spells?  I don't think I've used either summon at all.  If those two summons aren't great then maybe I should consider multiclassing, perhaps with a martial class to make this a front line character, like an off-tank?

2) A Trickster/Devoted Riposte tank.  I think this is a build a lot of people have played around with but I just never have.  Trickster adds some high deflection spells to help Riposte trigger.  Devoted adds some general tankiness and damage.  Some items that play into it:

-WotEP with its Offensive Parry upgrade
-Champion's Helm (10% Riposte)
-Nomad Brigandine with the immunity to disengagement attacks upgrade.  I've heard the immunity manifests as misses which can trip Riposte attacks such that you can purposely run around disengaging and Riposting their missed attacks.

First question- does anyone know if the above item Riposte effects stack with the Rogue ability Riposte effect?  Does each one increase your chances to Riposte?  Can they ALL cause a Riposte from a single miss such that you retaliate multiple times?  Also, are there other multiclass combos that might work better?  The Trickster side seems too perfect with its deflection wizard spells, persistent distraction, and Riposte of course.  But maybe instead of fighter something like Paladin or Monk would be better?

3) Recklessly die and res build.  I'm not sure yet if it would be better played with a Barbarian or a Paladin as they each have death mechanics.  I wish their death mechanics were at power level 7 or below so I could multiclass them together but so it goes.  For the Paladin it's Sacred Sacrifice and for the Barbarian it's Vengeful Defeat.  Items that I was thinking of using:

-One Dozen Stood armor (Echo of the Godhammer upgrade for an AoE fire attack on death)
-Twin Eels weapon (self revive)
-Unstable Coil belt (lightening attack on death)
-Survivor's Tusks helm (self res AND injury removal)
-Mantle of Seven Bolts cloak (lightening attack on death)
-Rekvu Scorched Cloak (fire damage heals if injured, special synergy with Sacred Sacrifice)

Does anyone know if the Sacred Sacrifice + Rekvu strategy still works (the immolation heals you if you have an injury)?  Does anyone know how multiple self res effects resolve- do they all get wasted and just one triggers or do they each trigger in turn like you'd want?  Does anyone know if these on death damage effects are impactful or pretty underwhelming?  In my head I can see a Barbarian leaping into a pack of enemies and using Heart of Storm until he dies which triggers full attacks and multiple item on death attacks and just wrecks everyone.  But maybe the item effects are all pretty meh?  I imagine it can get annoying constantly having injuries and having to rest but on death stuff isn't something I've played around with in the past so I'm curious to try it. 

[Constentin Lévine]

1. Yes, the Lance of the Midwood Stag give you 2 generics PL under the effect of Form of the Delemgem. It is in my opinion better than the Spine of the Thicket Green because that work with every spells, like Touch of Rot or Autumn Decay, no plant but decay keyword.

But anyway the Spine of the Thicket Green is available as you are in Neketaka.

One item that give you other poison PL is the Spider Silk Robe. That give also a poison immunity, so you can cast Venombloom around you when surrounded by ennemies.

2. I just know for the indepence of the differents ripostes. You can combine them.

3. Rekvu Scorched Cloak do nothing for your paladin when he cast Sacred immolation (and sacrifice), because he take raw damages...

I'm not sure different effect of revive can chain, maybe all of them will trigger in the same time. But I'm not sure.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Constentin Lévine

[crdvis16]

Ah, good call on Sacred Immolation being raw damage for the Paladin.  I thought I had heard long ago that Revku+Sacred Immolation was a nice combo but  maybe it was in a previous patch or something.  And good call on spider silk as another poison PL booster.  Thanks!

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, crdvis16 said:

-Lance of the Midwood Stag with the upgrade that gives +2 power levels when affected by Plant/Beast status affects (I assume that means things like Form of the Delemgen would give me the +2 power level?) 

Correct. Woodskin wouldalso work. Pollen Patch and Garden of Life as well iirc. Beetle Shell, too - but's that's not really useful unless you want to cast a long-lasting, pulsing spell (e.g. Moonwell) and then retreat into the shell and let the pulses profit from the raised PL. Even bothering yourself with Tanglefoot would work I think.  Woodskin and Form of the Delemgan are the best options imo.
 

1 hour ago, crdvis16 said:

At first glance I would probably go Spine of the Thicket Green with Vion-Ceth as my backup.

 I personally would pick staff and pike and switch based on the spells I want to cast and also based on the enemies' AR. Having crush and pierce as alternatives is good - having both at reach is even better.
+3 PL from the staff is better than +2 from the pike... but the latter is universal while the Spine of Thicket Green "only" works for Beast and Plant spells.

Vion-Ceth bonus is only +20%/+30% dmg which is pretty lame overall imo.

1 hour ago, crdvis16 said:

II'm also wondering if Cauldron Shard (chance to gain health when doing poison/acid damage) might also work into this build?  Some of the plant based spells are also poison keyworded.

I think you misunderstood. It converts poison/corrode damage should you get hit by it - not when you are causing it.

1 hour ago, crdvis16 said:

Are there other items that feed into an Ancient Druid build?

Anything that raises MIG and INT since many of his spells are DoTs which profit a lot from a combined MIG and INT score.
 

1 hour ago, crdvis16 said:

Also, how are Fire Stag and Aspect of Galawain as high level spells?  

They are pretty bad.

You can cheese the Fire Stag though: if you prevent death (for example via Barring Death's Door or Shieldbearer's Lay on Hands) you can trigger the self-destruct of the stag but it won't die. You can then trigger that action over and over again...

Aspect of Galawain is cool visually - and you can make it quite tanky with "Wild Growth" (the robust spell you can use on summoned beasts - it has no duration and lasts as long as the summons lasts). But honestly... for its Power Level it's pretty lame and especially weak offensively.

The Sporelings are excellent though. You can controll them. At higher levels they last for a really long time, they scale properly and get big health pools - and if you use both Wild Growth spells on them they can tank well.

Also Call to the Primordals is a very good summoning spell. Some of the Oozes have special attacks (for example Plague of Insects - inlimited uses!).

Multiclassing with a Helwalker is a good choice as well imo - since you will get bonus MIG, bonus INT, unlimited (paid with wounds) summons (Dichotomous Soul) and bonus ACC (Dance of Death) and casting speed (Swift Strikes). 

1 hour ago, crdvis16 said:

First question- does anyone know if the above item Riposte effects stack with the Rogue ability Riposte effect?  Does each one increase your chances to Riposte?  Can they ALL cause a Riposte from a single miss such that you retaliate multiple times?  Also, are there other multiclass combos that might work better?  The Trickster side seems too perfect with its deflection wizard spells, persistent distraction, and Riposte of course.  But maybe instead of fighter something like Paladin or Monk would be better?

 They do stack. Riposte and Offensive Parry can get triggered by the same miss.
Wizard also does work bc. of the self buffs. With Wall of Draining you can later keep up all the self buffs forever. You can also prolong stuff like the deflection buff of the Mask of the Weyc (stacks with everything except Arcane Veil) and the +50 deflection from the Escape Cape (stacks with everything except Escape itself). Ciphers generate focus with Offensive Parry (but not Riposte). Shattered Pillar generates wounds with Offensive Parry (not Riposte). Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming trigger from Offensive Parry, too (not Riposte). I think it even generates phrases for Skalds if it crits. Steel Garrote gets health from Offensive Parry (because it also causes dazed).

But generally Trickster/Fighter is a good combo for this. Also because Refreshing Defense (+20 to all defenses) stacks with Mirrored Images (+30 to deflection). I prefer Unbroken (because Ryngrim's + Disengagment Attacks) but Devoted is fine, too if you want to stick to WotEP at all times.

By the way: Riposte and Cleaving Stance both use the cone AoE of WotEP. Offensive Parry is single target.

 

1 hour ago, crdvis16 said:

Does anyone know if the Sacred Sacrifice + Rekvu strategy still works (the immolation heals you if you have an injury)?  Does anyone know how multiple self res effects resolve- do they all get wasted and just one triggers or do they each trigger in turn like you'd want?  Does anyone know if these on death damage effects are impactful or pretty underwhelming?  In my head I can see a Barbarian leaping into a pack of enemies and using Heart of Storm until he dies which triggers full attacks and multiple item on death attacks and just wrecks everyone.  But maybe the item effects are all pretty meh?  I imagine it can get annoying constantly having injuries and having to rest but on death stuff isn't something I've played around with in the past so I'm curious to try it. 

 You might also want to look at the Great Sword "Effort". It has an enchantment that works like Vengeful Defeat and they stack.
Immolation does raw damage - it doesn't work with Rekvu's Scorched Cloak.
Parallel resurrection effects get all triggered at once and thus will be wasted.

If you get two Rings of Reset (one by exporting/importing a character who wears it) you can stack them in the stash after use and the depleted one will get "reloaded". That way you can use it 3 times/encounter. It's a bit cheesy but the only way to really make such a build worthwhile imo. Else you will have debilitating injuries all the time. 





 

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

1 minute ago, crdvis16 said:

And good call on spider silk as another poison PL booster.

Poison PL boosts only work for actual poisons (the consumables) iirc...? Will check later...

[crdvis16]

Thanks for the clarifications!  I'm glad I have you guys to sanity check me before I get halfway through a playthrough only to realize that I made some bad assumptions on how things work.

Bummer that the high PL Druid summons are garbage... Maybe I'll check the patch notes of the polish patch to see if they did anything with them in it.  It's been a while since I went over the changes so its hard to remember what was done.

Also a bummer that the res items all get consumed on death.  I guess I could get around that by swapping them out after each fight.  A small pain but probably not any worse than things like using drugs with Nalpazca, etc.  We'll see how annoying the build up of injuries gets.  I might end up only going kamikaze in fights where I think I can hit a bunch of enemies on death and otherwise just play the Barbarian normal.  Despite being a pain in the butt I think it would just be fun to make use of a bunch of items/abilities that aren't typically very useful.

And bummer about Cauldron Shard triggering from getting damaged rather than doing damage.  That's... a bit harder to make use of.  I imagine it's just a nice item in poison/acid specific fights then.

[crdvis16]

It looks like the balance polish mod (summon section) does make some changes to Fire Stag and Aspect of Galawain.  So perhaps I'll go single class Ancient after all and see how they do.

[Kaylon]

14 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Poison PL boosts only work for actual poisons (the consumables) iirc...? Will check later...

I'm sure Insect Swarm/Plague of Insects were considered poisons at the launch and were even affected by alchemy (giving them huge duration and radius). The alchemy thing was patched, but I think they're still considered poisons (maybe other spells too).

[Haplok]

I'm not sure about the choice of WotEP on the riposte Swashbuckler. It both has very low damage per hit AND will offer less Deflection then a weapon & shield combo. Offensive Parry is nice, but for such a build I'm not sure it compensates for these downsides (when you need 2 hits with WotEP to do same damage as with 1 strike of a saber or axe - and in your rounds, you'll be spending twice the resources to do the same damage with active skills). I'm sure it can work, particularly in an enemy mob, but is far from optimal IMO.

Personally I'd go with Tuotilo's Palm (if its not reserved for a monk in your party) - it doesn't lower your Accuracy, also has a not very strong attack and also has an enchantment that has a chance  to trigger a weak riposte damage plus Magran's Favor battleaxe (with modal on the defense - or when fighting a boss). With this combo my Eder was sometimes scoring Ripostes about ~200 total damage (plus inflicting a nasty DOT on enemies). Gipon Prudensco armor ensured good action speed (when not using the axe modal) AND provided even more Deflection (hence more Riposte chance). Nomad's Brigandine is also good and usually available earlier.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Haplok

[Boeroer]

44 minutes ago, Kaylon said:

I'm sure Insect Swarm/Plague of Insects were considered poisons at the launch and were even affected by alchemy (giving them huge duration and radius). The alchemy thing was patched, but I think they're still considered poisons (maybe other spells too).

After writing my concern I went and checked Venombloom, Plague of Insects and Insect Swarm (among other poison/disease spells) with Spider Silk Robe and Mask of the Grotto Deep on/off and the stats of the spells didn't change one bit. At the same time poison consumables changed their stats.

I guess it's fair to say that generally poison PLs bonuses don't work for anything but poison consumables.

Those spells are considered poisons when it comes to antidotes and immunity vs. poison though. They just don't get a bonus from poison power levels.

I invite everybody to test more/other poison spells. Maybe there are some that are excluded from this behavior. I only tested the druid ones (and Nannasin's Cobra Strike - also no luck). 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Boeroer

[crdvis16]

Maybe I'll go Unbroken instead of Devoted so that I can keep my options open on what weapons to use in the riposte build.

[hansvedic]

If you want to use “on-death” effects, consider a wizard (for summon phantom deaths) or a monk (for dichotomous soul deaths), especially if you don’t want to have the actual character die.

[crdvis16]

7 minutes ago, hansvedic said:

If you want to use “on-death” effects, consider a wizard (for summon phantom deaths) or a monk (for dichotomous soul deaths), especially if you don’t want to have the actual character die.

Does that work?  I didn't know that on-death effects would work with copies.  Do the item effects work AND the abilities (Vengeful Defeat, for instance)?

[hansvedic]

5 minutes ago, crdvis16 said:

Does that work?  I didn't know that on-death effects would work with copies.  Do the item effects work AND the abilities (Vengeful Defeat, for instance)?

Wizard phantoms get all your items (accessories, armor, base version of your weapons), so yes, they will work on phantom death.

Apparently Dichotomous Souls get accessories and armor (e.g hobbling trail from boots of winter works on them), but not weapons. However, you get 2 of them. If you can ensure they both die before time runs out, they should both be able to cause on death effects.

The question I have right now is which “on-death” effects work with each other, if any. It seems that Effort, a weapon with an on-death effect, has its effect not happen when wearing the Cape of the Falling Star or the Mantle of Seven Bolts, each of which have an on-death effect.

Edited November 25, 2021 by hansvedic

[crdvis16]

Hmm, then it seems I'd have to choose between Barbarian's Vengeful Defeat or phantom/dichotomous clones.  Vengeful defeat is PL8 so can't get obtained when multi-classed.

The phantom/dichotomous route is like sending out expendable suicide bombers which is a pretty cool idea too.  Monk with Dichotomous is maybe the better way to go since you get two bombs and can potentially summon them more times than a phantom throughout a long fight.  It depends on all those stacked on-death items being impactful when they go boom I guess and it depends on the clones dying before their duration ends.  

On the other hand, Vengeful Defeat is very enticing...

Edited November 25, 2021 by crdvis16

[hansvedic]

22 minutes ago, crdvis16 said:

Hmm, then it seems I'd have to choose between Barbarian's Vengeful Defeat or phantom/dichotomous clones.  Vengeful defeat is PL8 so can't get obtained when multi-classed.

The phantom/dichotomous route is like sending out expendable suicide bombers which is a pretty cool idea too.  Monk with Dichotomous is maybe the better way to go since you get two bombs and can potentially summon them more times than a phantom throughout a long fight.  It depends on all those stacked on-death items being impactful when they go boom I guess and it depends on the clones dying before their duration ends.  

On the other hand, Vengeful Defeat is very enticing...

If you want to have a barbarian, consider using a single-class Furyshaper. The Blood Ward heals on DoT ticks, as well. Combine this with battle axe modal, Heart of Fury, and Barbaric Retaliation, and you will be spreading the DoTs, healing yourself (and your party), and if you do die, you can then use Vengeful Defeat and any on-death effects.

[crdvis16]

I thought about fury shaper but I wasn't sure if the totems die if the Barb dies.  If they do unsummon on Barb death then that could be kinda annoying in a build where I'm sort of dying on purpose at times.  I would test these things out but I have very limited time to actually spend in game (but lots of time to post om forums ).

Edited November 25, 2021 by crdvis16

[Boeroer]

To answer the question
"Do phantoms get your abilities like Vengeful Defeat?"
No, they don't. However they receive all your items (Dichotomous Soul all items except weapons). This includes summoned items you are carrying while summoning the phantom. A special case is Concenhaut's Draining Touch - because on a Phantom it will not go away after a hit but stay as long as the phantom lasts.

It would also get Whispers of the Endless Paths and stuff like Bracers of Greater Deflection, your armor (for example Nomad's Brigandine with its deflection bonus) - and its base deflection isn't bad either. While it would not get Riposte (because character ability) it will have Offensive Parry (if you enchanted WotEP with it).

Basically the phantom gets a 1:1 copy of your gear with all enchantments etc.

It's not clear which on-death effects suppress each other. For me Efford worked well in combin. with Effigy's Husk and the Mantle of the Seven Bolts - but not with Cape of the Falling Star.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Boeroer

[hansvedic]

19 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

It's not clear which on-death effects suppress each other. For me Efford worked well in combin. with Effigy's Husk and the Mantle of the Seven Bolts - but not with Cape of the Falling Star.

Interesting. What about (Least) Unstable Coil? Does it work in combination with Effigy's Husk and Mantle of the Seven Bolts?

Also, does Cape of the Falling Star not combine with ANY other on-death effects, or does it only overwrite Effort's death effect?

[Boeroer]

Can't say. I neither used the Coil for a suicide char or phantom nor did I test combinations with Cape of the Falling Star excessively, sorry.
 

[crdvis16]

I'll test it eventually in my playthrough but it'll be a while before I get those items...