My "too dumb to die" build

[NotDumbEnough]

Probably the dumbest build I've ever played, with 1000 hrs in this game. Dumb in that you dump intellect, as well as the extremely simplistic playstyle. Playing with Community Patch and Balance Polishing Mod.

Class: Rogue (Streetfighter)/Cipher (Soulblade)

Race: Human

Attribute distribution: Dump Intellect and Resolve. Allocate everything else as you wish, max out Perception and choose White that Wends origin.

Skill build: Take Crippling Strike and Antipathetic Field as starting abilities. Otherwise take only passive abilities (Iron Will, Cipher +1 weapon pen ability, +10 Fort/Reflex/Will, etc etc). Suggest taking Biting Whip for raw lash (Community Patch change) over Draining Whip. Suggest taking Monastic Unarmed Training at least for early game. Consider taking Ectopsychic Echo (beam abilities don't care about your intellect) or Detonate for bosses, but entirely optional.

How to play: Get flanked/bloodied or both. If all else fails, toss Sparkcrackers on self: since you dumped intellect and resolve you will likely crit yourself from low will, and since resolve is low, the distracted duration will be long. Hit stuff with Crippling Strike if you have 0 focus. Soul Annihilation if you have the focus to use it. A friendly priest can be useful for Barring Death's Door and Champion's Boon (if you find yourself running into underpenetration issues). Later on Reaping Knives from a friendly Cipher solves all penetration issues and hits hard.

This is a build that was literally so strong that I immediately headed for the digsite without even bothering to visit Port Maje. I have the Berath's Blessing that starts me at level 4 turned on, though it is also PotD upscaled. I usually struggle with the drake even with Eder+Xoti in tow, but this time I only had Eder and simply punched the crap out of it.

[Not So Clever Hound]

Thanks for sharing. I can totally see that this toon being very front-loaded in terms of key abilities, you would feel very powerful at the beginning - I'm assuming with pretty high CON though.

However, I can't see it being too dumb to die in high level content. FS, SSS, certain Fampyr fights... isn't it? Unless you use BDD/SoT all the time, you'd need to play very strategically around this toon and use defensive abilities a lot (invis, mobility) to not get absolutely wrecked the second enemies focus you.

EDIT: for me Too Dumb To Die with simplistic gameplay concept would apply more to 5 Heralds for example but without the dropped INT .

Edited November 15, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[NotDumbEnough]

Soulblade + Streetfighter is quite possibly the highest single-target damage in the game. Later on you will probably get 70-80 focus from a single use of Crippling Strike. Then with Soul Annihilation that translates into ~30 base raw damage which is amplified by weapon tier and sneak attack and your streetfighter passive. If you're using a slow one-handed weapon this is roughly equivalent to an attack that deals triple damage. One particularly fond memory of this build is literally one-shotting Fyrgist from full HP with a Soul Annihilation crit using Voidwheel.

Basically this build will kill pretty much everything within the duration of 2 back to back BDD's from a friendly priest. 

Back of the envelope calculation:

Weapon enchantment: +60% damage

Might: +30% or so

Sneak Attack: +60%

Deathblows: +50%

On the Edge: +50%

On the Edge crit: +140%

Biting Whip: +20%

Total: 5.1 multiplier to your base damage. If you have ~160 focus that is 50 base damage so ~250 damage. But wait! You also get a PL bonus to your damage for roughly 30%. So 300+ damage for just the raw damage portion of your Soul Annihilation.

Then calculate the weapon attack damage. Assume you're using a 2h weapon and roll 20 damage. Same 5.1 multiplier and PL bonus here so roughly 130 damage. Factor in your Biting Whip lash and Voidwheel's Lash and Deep Wounds and that's roughly 200 damage.

So with moderate focus that's a conservative guess of 500 damage for a Soul Annihilation crit. But if you're even luckier you will get a Necrotic Lance proc which will deal approx another 150-300 damage depending on whether it is a crit.

Keep in mind too that you have insane attack speed and you are doing this Soul Annihilation attack every third swing.

Edited November 15, 2021 by NotDumbEnough

[Not So Clever Hound]

1 hour ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Soulblade + Streetfighter is quite possibly the highest single-target damage in the game

Thanks for the detailed breakdown! I'm certainly not disputing the fact that this build achieves stupidly high single target damage. It does one thing and it does it really really well. I also remember your post/screenshot about Voidwheel with this toon.

I'm just saying that you're still very susceptible to things like Arcane Dampener or enemy cipher powers for example. Arcane Dampener then a couple lvl20 Fampyrs casting Minor Missiles and it's lights out. Of course it certainly isn't the kind of opposition you'll meet at every corner, but IMHO those situations will require a more hands-on approach than - I'm too dumb to die, punch, punch, punch.  

[Boeroer]

How do you survive all the self damage from Voidwheel (except with BDD)?

[NotDumbEnough]

It was really not an issue, 20 damage per swing when you kill most enemies in 1-2 hits is not an issue. Chanter's Old Siec might be helpful though it tends to heal you for so much that you go above half HP.

[thelee]

i have never even conceived of dumping intellect before, so this build tickles me in all the right ways. i never knew beam spells were unaffected by intellect, a nice loophole around the intellect dumping (and always fun to learn something new after so many thousand+ hours of the game).

Edited November 15, 2021 by thelee

[Not So Clever Hound]

6 minutes ago, thelee said:

i never knew beam spells were unaffected by intellect, a nice loophole around the intellect dumping (and always fun to learn something new after so many thousand+ house of the game).

Yeah the beam spells/powers fixed duration is an interesting quirk from PoE1 that carried over PoE2 IIRC.

[NotDumbEnough]

Another scenario where dumping intellect is acceptable is multiclassed Rangers. Regardless of whether you're going ranged or melee, only your binding roots ability particularly cares about intellect, and it's far from mandatory. Heal Companion is obsoleted by Play Dead, which in fact (I think) benefits from low intellect, as your pets get up faster.

I did try a dumped intellect Stalker/Soulblade before this, but it was generally much less effective than this build. Simply not enough damage output. Your pet is a nice anchor for Ectopsychic Echo, but that's about it. I guess if you're a bit more keen on durability than damage, it's OK.

Edited November 15, 2021 by NotDumbEnough

[thelee]

3 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Heal Companion is obsoleted by Play Dead, which in fact (I think) benefits from low intellect, as your pets get up faster.

a little off topic, but i think play dead is at a nice base duration and base ability level where you can go either way with intellect. Unlike withdraw where it can last a super long time with high intellect with huge scaling, making it sometimes scary to use in a fight (i.e. take your chances with a low-health party member or definitely lose them for 40 seconds).

high intellect = debuffs continue to tick away while pet is knocked out, and i've definitely saved my pet from some massive dots or debuffs by playing dead and waiting them out, which is harder to do with a low duration. low intellect = obv get pet back sooner but still with tons of health.

[Elric Galad]

11 hours ago, thelee said:

a little off topic, but i think play dead is at a nice base duration and base ability level where you can go either way with intellect. Unlike withdraw where it can last a super long time with high intellect with huge scaling, making it sometimes scary to use in a fight (i.e. take your chances with a low-health party member or definitely lose them for 40 seconds).

high intellect = debuffs continue to tick away while pet is knocked out, and i've definitely saved my pet from some massive dots or debuffs by playing dead and waiting them out, which is harder to do with a low duration. low intellect = obv get pet back sooner but still with tons of health.

I would be tempted to say that Play Dead, Withdraw and Beetle Shell should have fixed durations. Scaling with INT and PL being detrimental isn't super intuitive. It would at least be still compatible with low INT builds.

What would you think about it ?

[Not So Clever Hound]

13 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

I would be tempted to say that Play Dead, Withdraw and Beetle Shell should have fixed durations. Scaling with INT and PL being detrimental isn't super intuitive. It would at least be still compatible with low INT builds.

What would you think about it ?

Putting feasibility aside for a second, personally I think it would make more sense for those abilities to have an "off" switch (like Spiritshift) than a fixed duration. To give flexibility to end the effect earlier if needed.

Now, of course I guess this is a much more difficult change to implement than a fixed duration.  but it would be more elegant IMO.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[Elric Galad]

4 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

Putting feasibility aside for a second, personally I think it would make more sense for those abilities to have an "off" switch (like Spiritshift) than a fixed duration. To give flexibility to end the effect earlier if needed.

Now, of course I guess this is a much more difficult change to implement than a fixed duration.  but it would be more elegant IMO.

This would also make these spells much stronger, Sanctuary would become strictly better than beetle shell, and play dead basically an instant full heal ! Basically they would become "other abilities", something that I ususally don't want to do.

And yeah, from a technical point of view, adding an off button to Sanctuary and Beetle Shell feels quite complicated and possibly impossible to do (play dead should be doable, but as stated above, would be almost broken).

Also I don't know how AI would handle them.

 

So yeah, I think I will go with fixed duration  

[Not So Clever Hound]

13 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Sanctuary would become strictly better than beetle shell

Only if a great Conjunction of Spheres allows AD&D Clerics to walk the land of Deadfire, but then all bets are off and I want Greater Contingency and Timestop available for PoE2 Wizards.  

Edited November 16, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[Elric Galad]

2 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

Only if a great Conjunction of Spheres allows AD&D Clerics to walk the land of Deadfire, but then all bets are off and I want Greater Contingency and Timestop available for PoE2 Wizards.  

Ups, I meant Withdraw. 

[thelee]

7 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

I would be tempted to say that Play Dead, Withdraw and Beetle Shell should have fixed durations. Scaling with INT and PL being detrimental isn't super intuitive. It would at least be still compatible with low INT builds.

What would you think about it ?

yeah overall i like that. for me on berath's challenge, withdraw goes from "nice oh **** spell" early game to "never gets used" because of the PL scaling. only downside is that beetle shell wouldn't get any other scaling. at least play dead and withdraw you get more healing. don't know how to fix beetle shell in that respect.

[Elric Galad]

18 hours ago, thelee said:

yeah overall i like that. for me on berath's challenge, withdraw goes from "nice oh **** spell" early game to "never gets used" because of the PL scaling. only downside is that beetle shell wouldn't get any other scaling. at least play dead and withdraw you get more healing. don't know how to fix beetle shell in that respect.

Well, it's not that shocking to have an ability that doesn't scale. Most brisk Troubadour chants don't. Ironskin doesn't. 

I have a tiny doubt about durations. I'm usually not concerned about Turn-Based (I haven't experienced it enough to pretend BPM is in line with it), but when it comes to fixed durations (which can't scale with any means), I tend to round them as close as possible for multiple of 6s (1 round)

Therefore I propose :

Withdraw : 30s -> fixed 30s

Play Death & upgrade : 10s -> fixed 12s

Beetle Shell : 10s -> fixed 18s ??? I tend to think low duration is a bit less critical for this one, and a bit more duration can be useful for soaking damages. Also I wished it could be superior in some way to BPM's BDD (which provide 12s of 300 damages shield without side effect)

[thelee]

4 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

I tend to think low duration is a bit less critical for this one, and a bit more duration can be useful for soaking damages. Also I wished it could be superior in some way to BPM's BDD (which provide 12s of 300 damages shield without side effect)

personally i'm ok if a druid gets a crappier version of BDD in the bpm, even accounting for difference in ability level. priests are the best at the shielding effect (they get withdraw AND bdd, and to a certain comparable extent watchful presence).

 

is bdd fixed duration in bpm? i don't see that damage shield needs to be fixed duration. beetle shell is useful for long durations because enemies don't ignore a shell-ed target, so it's actually quite nice to burn out the entire health shield with a long enough duration.

[NotDumbEnough]

Perhaps give Beetle Shell a superior range. BDD requires you to be in relatively close range, so a rogue that dives into enemy lines may not be within reach of the priest.

[Elric Galad]

4 hours ago, thelee said:

personally i'm ok if a druid gets a crappier version of BDD in the bpm, even accounting for difference in ability level. priests are the best at the shielding effect (they get withdraw AND bdd, and to a certain comparable extent watchful presence).

 

is bdd fixed duration in bpm? i don't see that damage shield needs to be fixed duration. beetle shell is useful for long durations because enemies don't ignore a shell-ed target, so it's actually quite nice to burn out the entire health shield with a long enough duration.

Sorry, I poorly explained.

Damages shield does not require fixed duration.

BPM's BDD is a 12s damages shield that activate when near death. The duration scales normally with INT and PL (the near death conditional has infinite duration, same as Watchful Presence).

I thought somehow that Beetle Shell should at least have a greater base duration. Comparing fixed and non-fixed duration was a bit misleading.

But now that I'm thinking about it, Beetle Shell probably does not require fixed duration as much as Withdraw and Play Dead. So I'm probably going to leave it alone with its 10s scaling duration.

(Note that BPM set Beetle Shell casting time to 0,5s, which was quite necessary for it to be useful)

4 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Perhaps give Beetle Shell a superior range. BDD requires you to be in relatively close range, so a rogue that dives into enemy lines may not be within reach of the priest.

Beetle Shell does have a much superior range (15m vs 5m). This is a good point.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

I've set Play Dead to 12s to get 2 round in TB.

For Withdraw, I'm hesitating. Rounding up to 24s (4 TB Turns) would be the closest to the original duration, but I fear it could make Hylea's challenge very tedious. That's why I'm leaning toward 30s (5 TB Turns). With a reasonable Intellect and a few PL, that's what a Priest will get anyway.

What do you think ?

[Bosmer]

On 11/15/2021 at 8:12 AM, NotDumbEnough said:

...

On the Edge crit: +140%

Biting Whip: +20%

Total: 5.1 multiplier to your base damage. If you have ~160 focus that is 50 base damage so ~250 damage. But wait! You also get a PL bonus to your damage for roughly 30%. So 300+ damage for just the raw damage portion of your Soul Annihilation.

I thought that the crit bonus damage won't work for the Raw damage of Soul Annihilation.. did I miss something?