the_dog_days Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Zoraptor said: The only caveats I'd have are with how hard it is to translate pov to TV, and that all the female main characters (counting Egwene, Nynaeve and Moiriane) in WoT aren't really 'likeable' early on, largely because they're viewed from the pov of Rand and Perrin in the books (exc Egwene, to an extent, though as I've said before I find her most likeable early on). Egwene's not likeable because she's hypocritical (accusing the boys of wander lust when she's the only one off seeking adventure) and dismissive of others (stands there eavesdropping on the boys talking about the strange rider and 1) buts into the conversation to give her 2 cents, and 2) immediately assumes their seeing things even though she just had to say something). And for anyone who's gonna say something about 'mansplaning', I've got eight (yes, eight) sisters and they do the exact same thing. It's not gender exclusive. Edited January 2, 2022 by the_dog_days 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, Bartimaeus said: Especially, it seems, for the poor women in these shows - having a character start off weak and inexperienced and having them learn from their costly mistakes, work through or at least mitigate the physical/emotional vulnerabilities they go through or discover about themselves, and succeed in spite of or even because of their character weaknesses is literally how you make strong and grounded characters that people like and want to root for. the thing is, (warning: hawkeye spoilers) Spoiler immediate previous, kate locks herself in a car to get away from the tracksuits, a move which she has gotta know will only delay the inevitable. she is alone, afraid, outnumbered and w/o options, so she desperate hides in a car. not sooper heroic by any stretch o' the imagination, but the show didn't fall apart 'cause kate needed help. now sure, they made kate smarter and better at everything than just 'bout everybody but hawkeye, so is maybe not an ideal example o' a female protagonist with room for growth, but much o' the show involves clint saving kate's bacon, and her efforts to prove herself is resulting in predictable comic relief. Spoiler *shrug* am not suggesting hawkeye is the best show ever, but am hopeful writers, directors and producers take notice o' the fact they may include a female protagonist who suffers a scene some audiences will reflexive label as a damsel in distress moment (over and over andoverandover) w/o such being fatal to the public reception. HA! Good Fun! Edited January 3, 2022 by Gromnir 2 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 2 hours ago, the_dog_days said: Egwene's not likeable because she's hypocritical (accusing the boys of wander lust when she's the only one off seeking adventure) and dismissive of others (stands there eavesdropping on the boys talking about the strange rider and 1) buts into the conversation to give her 2 cents, and 2) immediately assumes their seeing things even though she just had to say something). And for anyone who's gonna say something about 'mansplaning', I've got eight (yes, eight) sisters and they do the exact same thing. It's not gender exclusive. That I actually find more or less likeable because it's completely relatable. It's also very easy to forgive such things when the stakes are on the 'badger released on the common during Bel Tine, hilarious or not?' sort of level and from people who aren't really mature. It's a lot less easy to forgive- and a hence a lot less likeable- when things are done for obviously selfish reasons and the stakes are massive after 2 years away from home. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartimaeus Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Zoraptor said: Egwene, to an extent, though as I've said before I find her most likeable early on Yeah, Egwene was my favorite character early on...and then she basically gets treated like a perfect goddess that can do no wrong throughout the second half of the series. It works better in the books because...you know, she actually grows from the weak character she is early on so at least it feels somewhat justified, but even I started losing my patience after a certain point. Which lead to Mat becoming my favorite character instead. Post-dagger, he's just so much more silly and fun than everyone else - feels like a breath of fresh air every time you switch from someone else to him. Particularly if that someone else was...say, Elayne. Yes, I'm still on that Elayne hate train - Elayne should go straight into a flaming dumpster and never return henceforth. If there are any Elayne apologists out there, I will not hear your excuses for that trashcan of a character, . 5 hours ago, Zoraptor said: So a lot of people dislike Nynaeve in the early books because she's an authority figure to the boys and was a young woman authority figure in her village trying to order people three times her age around The only thing I associate with Nynaeve is braid tugging...and sniffing, and skirt smoothing. I literally don't even really remember what her character was really like except for very early on as I'm pretty sure I have PTSD from reading those phrases because of her too many times. Not that she was the only offender, but... 5 hours ago, Zoraptor said: I'm not actually sure the show tried that at all though. It's far easier to make them 'likeable' instead of likeable by having them do all the cool things. And yeah, with that approach you end up with Superman very rapidly because you have to have them doing cooler and cooler things and get into a spiral of plot inflation. Given the content of ep8, power wise there already is absolutely nowhere for them to go upwards except into the completely stupid. From the sounds of it, they're already pretty much there... 48 minutes ago, Gromnir said: now sure, they made kate smarter and better at everything than just 'bout everybody but hawkeye, so is maybe not an ideal example o' a female protagonist with room for growth, but much o' the show involves clint saving kate's bacon, and her efforts to prove herself is resulting in predictable comic relief. I'm glad you brought up the specific example of Luke in that post (which I can't help but notice that I put a big ol' "like" on when you posted it), because he's someone I've had in mind a number of times whenever this discussion comes up. Luke is a male character (in the 1970s!!!) that is weak, inexperienced, and doesn't listen to the people that he should...and has only the occasional success - just enough so that the story can continue without everyone getting killed. That's like...the ideal way to start off a young to-be hero that you plan on growing and eventually becoming powerful while still retaining their humanity. I'm a person that generally likes, relates to, and sympathizes with female protagonists much more than male protagonists, but I'd prefer a thousand Lukes over one sorry and pathetically written Rey, that much is clear. Edited January 3, 2022 by Bartimaeus Quote How I have existed fills me with horror. For I have failed in everything - spelling, arithmetic, riding, tennis, golf; dancing, singing, acting; wife, mistress, whore, friend. Even cooking. And I do not excuse myself with the usual escape of 'not trying'. I tried with all my heart. In my dreams, I am not crippled. In my dreams, I dance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said: Elayne should go straight into a flaming dumpster and never return henceforth. Elayne is pretty funny if taken as a parody of 'enlightened' nobles and how they see themselves*. There's certainly far too much of her for the depth of the plot she's involved in, and she's an awful person who gets a lot of people pointlessly killed because she thinks she personally is invulnerable. *And that's how I tend to think she is intended to be taken, especially with some of the in jokes about her (eg her constantly getting a veil caught in her mouth when others don't- because while she may think she's down with the common man she's actually looking down her nose at everyone, she just doesn't realise it). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 More TV and Streaming in the sequel: “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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