Screaming Souls made cool

[Boeroer]

Yeah, that seems to have been a nice idea initially - but they either didn't manage to implement it or took it out at some point and didn't change the description. At least that's my impression. I always only see the dmg from the initial cast, no additional procs off of other vessels. Even when I'm test-fighting a ton of cre_dummy which are vessels, too.

[Not So Clever Hound]

27 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

At least that's my impression. I always only see the dmg from the initial cast, no additional procs off of other vessels. Even when I'm test-fighting a ton of cre_dummy which are vessels, too.

You're right! I feel silly for having just assumed so before. I tested it in real combat situation in the Old City Overlook against a truckload of vessels. So to begin with, the ability doesn't work as intended as it doesn't proc at all off multiple vessels.

[Elric Galad]

I can probably make it work by copying Dismissal (Edit : if anybody can confirm Dismissal is working normally, it would save time). I will try this evening. I'll keep you updated.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Elric Galad

[NotDumbEnough]

Yes, I think I tried Screaming Souls once in the big tavern fight on Splintered Reef. Was very disappointed it didn't blow the room up, not sure it hits more than one vessel.

[thelee]

what about making the triggered aoe off spirits/vessels smaller (~1.5) while also making it foe-only? it acts as a limit on the mayhem you can induce.

the sheer chaos of the foe/friend targeting just makes it doomed as a niche spell IMO. imagine if garden of life was foe/friend!

 

edit: oops didn't see a second page of posts that the ability doesn't even work correctly in normal cases

Edited August 25, 2021 by thelee

[thelee]

4 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

I can probably make it work by copying Dismissal (Edit : if anybody can confirm Dismissal is working normally, it would save time). I will try this evening. I'll keep you updated.

i don't know what you mean by "normally" but I have defintely used dismissal to wipe out entire fights through the entire patch history of the game.

[Not So Clever Hound]

5 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Edit : if anybody can confirm Dismissal is working normally, it would save time

@thelee already gave a pretty definitive answer  but just to confirm: I just tested it against another truckload of vessels and everything worked fine.

More precisely, the combat log showed:

• Graze/hit/crit attack resolutions for the damage component on all Vessels
• All Vessels that were Hit/Crit were interrupted as they should be
• All Vessels took damage corresponding to attack resolution
• All lower level Vessels were subsequently destroyed forever
• All higher level Vessels remained in the encounter (i.e. The Usher Incarnate and The Pallid Knight Incarnate that I summoned for testing)

Edited August 25, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[Elric Galad]

8 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

@thelee already gave a pretty definitive answer  but just to confirm: I just tested it against another truckload of vessels and everything worked fine.

More precisely, the combat log showed:

• Graze/hit/crit attack resolutions for the damage component on all Vessels
• All Vessels that were Hit/Crit were interrupted as they should be
• All Vessels took damage corresponding to attack resolution
• All lower level Vessels were subsequently destroyed forever
• All higher level Vessels remained in the encounter (i.e. The Usher Incarnate and The Pallid Knight Incarnate that I summoned for testing)

Ok, so conditional + AoE is possible, so either the non self target of the cipher powers somehow made it fail OR there is something rotten in the attack encapsulation.

Anyway, first I need to fix the spell, then we could discuss more about further tweaking it.

[Elric Galad]

OK, it works now. Each Vessels/Spirits in the 5m AoE generates its own raw damages scream.

Now we can discuss further about balancing the ability.

 

Note that a creature can affect itself with the scream. I'm not 100% sure it was the case previously, but anyway it can be tweaked.

I'm still with the opinion that foe-only might be too good, but the 1.5m radius suggestion from @thelee makes sense, so I'm going to think about it.
Also reducing the initial AoE so it could be a bit more controllable is an option. It shall be centered on a spirit / vessel though.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

What about Spell Shaping? I didn't try but I assume it's not working here, right?

[Elric Galad]

4 hours ago, Boeroer said:

What about Spell Shaping? I didn't try but I assume it's not working here, right?

Not tried.

 

New proposal : what about :

- initial AoE 5m (unchanged)

- secondary AoE set to base 1.5m instead of 2.5m but still affects everyone

- for each scream, the screamer isn't affected.

 

It sounds like a nerf, but setting the AoE to 1.5m would basically make the effects much more controllable (I might split the changes in 2 files : 1 to affect all targets and the other to reduce the AoE)

 

The pros :

- can be deadly Vs Spirits and Vessels but still can't be spammed mindlessly. Since the secondary AoE excludes the Spirit/Vessel, it can sometimes be worse for you than foes. But with careful positioning and reasonably tanky frontline you will still be able to deal absurd damages while taking fewer. (I suspect spirits won't be easy to maintain packed, but they are often weak to PER afflictions so it compensates a bit)

- Vs every vessel/spirit free groups, reasonably good summons placement can lead to great effects and not too much hurt. Better than amplified wave at concentrating damages Vs 1 target.

- benefit a lot from INT and Shared Nightmare. The secondary AoE could be made decent without hurting your party.

- Can still be used to cause Street fighter  flanking

[Not So Clever Hound]

This is great. Thanks @Elric Galad. Would be indeed awesome if split in 2 files as I'd personally like to see what happens with the ability if it works fully as intended, then potentially also include the reduced secondary AoE which is probably indeed more balanced/controllable.

[Elric Galad]

Sorry for failed annoucement but I have just spotted the new Screamin Souls only work once per target. Recasting the spell has no effect. I have no idea why but I'm still working on it. It might take a while, the bug seems kind of deep.

[Elric Galad]

Ok, still don't work, the holidays are about to end, I may come back to this... when I could.

I'm leaving the files here, just in case some fellow modder has time and will to investigate what is going on :

Here is the non-working file :

cl.cipher.screaming_souls_all_targets_scream.gamedatabundle

Somehow, the secondary AoE attack (the one that does the damages) seems to call back the initial attack (no obvious element that could cause that). You see the auto-hit of the first attack again in the combat log. This usually doesn't trigger the damages AoE once again. But the Status causing the attack seems to be caughts in an infinite loop that prevent future re-application.

This should work like Spark the Soul of the Rigteous (except no ticks involved), but it does not.

 

Here is the file reducing the AoE. This one is pretty surely not linked to the problem.

cl.cipher.screaming_souls_aoe.gamedatabundle

Edited August 27, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

Ok, so I started again. Basically I "grafted" a copy of Spark the Soul of the Righteous attack to Screaming Souls ability.

Then, step by step, I modded it to redo the Screaming Souls effects.

Now it's working fine, with original Vessel/Spirit only AoE, secondary raw damages AoE and Distracted status. Can be applied several times and affect all valid targets. Basically it works, but I haven't copied the original visuals yet.

Needless to say that I have yet no clue why this works and why it didn't, but I don't really care at this point.

(note that because I had to re-create the attack completely, I might make imossible the split of the changes between 2 separate files)

 

I'll complete the ability and the mod version later. I have a plane to take  

 

But if you want to try (Edit : Mechanically it should be the same as final version, except cast/recovery time should be 3s/4.5s instead of 4.5s/3s ; haven't changed yet from Spark the Souls).

Edit : Some feedback about how the ability feels now would be precious. Oh, Screaming Souls also works on Spiritual Ally that any priest can take.

cl.cipher.screaming_souls_all_targets_scream.gamedatabundle

Edited August 29, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Not So Clever Hound]

Thanks a lot @Elric Galad! It's very possible that I'm doing something wrong, but I've loaded the mod and tried in several different ways and it doesn't seem to fix the issue from my testing . I get the usual Screaming Souls effect. Maybe someone else has more luck? Tried on a bunch of spirits and vessels.

I only run the Community Patch, the No Forced Rest Mod by @Noqn and this mod. Oh and of course the Fixed Wahai Poraga Pollaxe Mod by @Boeroer.

[Boeroer]

3 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

Oh and of course the Fixed Wahai Poraga Pollaxe Mod by @Boeroer.

Lol - not even I am using that.  

Edited August 30, 2021 by Boeroer

[Not So Clever Hound]

33 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Lol - not even I am using that.  

Well it's in my loadout and it's here to stay. Because you know, why not.  

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

Thanks a lot @Elric Galad! It's very possible that I'm doing something wrong, but I've loaded the mod and tried in several different ways and it doesn't seem to fix the issue from my testing . I get the usual Screaming Souls effect. Maybe someone else has more luck? Tried on a bunch of spirits and vessels.

I only run the Community Patch, the No Forced Rest Mod by @Noqn and this mod. Oh and of course the Fixed Wahai Poraga Pollaxe Mod by @Boeroer.

Mmm, have you placed the file within a directory such as C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Pillars of Eternity II\PillarsOfEternityII_Data\override\BalancePolishingModBuffs\design\gamedata ? (you can replace "BalancePolishingModBuffs" by any other mod)

[Not So Clever Hound]

52 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Mmm, have you placed the file within a directory such as C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Pillars of Eternity II\PillarsOfEternityII_Data\override\BalancePolishingModBuffs\design\gamedata ? (you can replace "BalancePolishingModBuffs" by any other mod)

Yes indeed. It's correctly loaded in the mod loadout menu too. I'll do more testing when I can tomorrow.

[Elric Galad]

38 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

Yes indeed. It's correctly loaded in the mod loadout menu too. I'll do more testing when I can tomorrow.

When I download again on my pc, the file is named

"cl.cipher.screaming_souls_all_targets_scream_gamedatabundle.ea525d8649bd18f588c2f686212f990a"

It should be "cl.cipher.screaming_souls_all_targets_scream.gamedatabundle". This unexpected change of the file type might cause problem. It is weird that the name changed.

I might avoid this kind of rogue sharing, or make .zip when I do.

[Elric Galad]

Now that I'm thinking about it, @theleemight be right about making this abilities for only.

There are few abilities in this  game that doesn't display their AoE. Clear Out is a good example, and it's quite annoying. 

But Screaming Souls would become the only ability with unclear AoE that can cause friendly fire. I believe this could really be super annoying.

Setting it to foe only would solve the second issue.

It could be :

-5m wide base AoE

-1.5m wide foe only secondary AoE, excludes center target (foe hitting themselves with their own scream while allies don't would be weird)

-30-50 raw damages

-Distracted affliction

What do you think ? Would it be too powerful ? It compares well with Spark the Souls, less damages but raw and instant. Also more conditional. But Spark the Souls is for SC priests only that are good AoE nuker, while Ciphers should probably not be.

 

 

I'm considering adding self-target to Smoke Grenade to give another option to Street fighter to activate his effects. Throwing a Grenade at your feet should hurt. That would be to compensate the loss of a potential party inflicted Distracted.

[Not So Clever Hound]

8 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

When I download again on my pc, the file is named

"cl.cipher.screaming_souls_all_targets_scream_gamedatabundle.ea525d8649bd18f588c2f686212f990a"

It should be "cl.cipher.screaming_souls_all_targets_scream.gamedatabundle". This unexpected change of the file type might cause problem. It is weird that the name changed.

I might avoid this kind of rogue sharing, or make .zip when I do.

I just tried to rename the file and the issue persisted - Screaming Souls still working vanilla/unmodded. Would you mind possibly sharing a .zip to see if it works?

[Not So Clever Hound]

34 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Now that I'm thinking about it, @theleemight be right about making this abilities for only.

There are few abilities in this  game that doesn't display their AoE. Clear Out is a good example, and it's quite annoying. 

But Screaming Souls would become the only ability with unclear AoE that can cause friendly fire. I believe this could really be super annoying.

Setting it to foe only would solve the second issue.

It could be :

-5m wide base AoE

-1.5m wide foe only secondary AoE, excludes center target (foe hitting themselves with their own scream while allies don't would be weird)

-30-50 raw damages

-Distracted affliction

What do you think ? Would it be too powerful ? It compares well with Spark the Souls, less damages but raw and instant. Also more conditional. But Spark the Souls is for SC priests only that are good AoE nuker, while Ciphers should probably not be.

 

 

I'm considering adding self-target to Smoke Grenade to give another option to Street fighter to activate his effects. Throwing a Grenade at your feet should hurt. That would be to compensate the loss of a potential party inflicted Distracted.

For Screaming Souls - personally I like the idea of first making it work exactly as described/intended, and then see if it should have any other tweaks. I like that if it works as intended it is high risk/high reward and somewhat unique (because it actually is).

For Streetfighter, great idea! Makes a lot of sense and could create an incentive for more explosives usage on such build I guess. I never, ever use explosives. Not sure if it will be enough to give serious competition to Powder Burns though, which is easier and 100% guaranteed to work..?

[Elric Galad]

38 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

For Screaming Souls - personally I like the idea of first making it work exactly as described/intended, and then see if it should have any other tweaks. I like that if it works as intended it is high risk/high reward and somewhat unique (because it actually is).

Yes, I understand that. But I'm not sure I will be able to do it given the technical issues I had. What I can do is to make a variant for you . But including it in the mod would lead to non autonomous files (one requiring another), which I want to avoid.

Now I'm also thinking about setting screaming soul to its original AoE but with Silent Scream damages (12-20 raw) That would lead to respectable damages, esp Vs vessels/Spirits, but will cap it Vs single target.

38 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

For Streetfighter, great idea! Makes a lot of sense and could create an incentive for more explosives usage on such build I guess. I never, ever use explosives. Not sure if it will be enough to give serious competition to Powder Burns though, which is easier and 100% guaranteed to work..?

Smoke Grenade isn't an explosive, it's one of the Smoke Cloud upgrade.

Powder burn Distracted has been removed by BPM nerf anyway (it was stupidly easy to activate). But that's why I'm reluctant to remove other self inflicted Distraction from Streetfighter.