Corpse Eater SC with BPM: Is it comparable to the others now?

[Hoo]

Hello.

 

We'd like to hear any comments and opinions about the topic, since the Corpse Eater has been improved at BPM but I barely found discussion related to this.

Due to the cost penalty, the subclass is more fit for SC  I assume, but I'm still not sure the SC would be comparable to the other subclass (Mage Slayer is another underwhelming one I think, because of the -25% Beneficial effect duration penalty, so lets compare with either Berserker SC or Furyshaper SC). 

 

I'm really wondering how much the PL bonus from his/her special food(s) is worth. Do Barb's abilities get enough advantages from the PL boost in turn for the heavy cost penalty? 

 

Lastly, I really appreciate any good/interesting information for either Corpse Eater or Mage Slayer MC build (or even SC build) with BPM!

Edited August 13, 2021 by Hoo

[Elric Galad]

Reminders :

Corpse Eater with BPM :
Greatly buffed special food (and also replaced bonus MIG and malus INT by more varied effects) :
- Kith Meat : -5 Diplomacy, -15% Damages received, +3 Corpse Eater PL
- Corpse Loaf : -3 Diplomacy,+3 Health per 6s, +10 Fortitude, +4 Corpse Eater PL
- Forbidden Pie : -3 Diplomacy, +4 Resolve, Mind Affliction Resistance, +5 Corpse Eater PL

Not tested during a playthrough yet.
Also note Carnage scale with PL, so you get a passive benefit from it.
And you still have an edge vs Kiths/Wilders/Beasts cause you can eat the corpses.

I would probably go with Dual Wield Heart of Fury. Dazing Shout isn't too bad cause you don't need to cast it often.

Dragon Leap has a 6s stun AoE and will get good benefit from PL.

Blood Frenzy line might be the best because of the prolonged effect.

 

Mage slayer gains -25% hostile and beneficial effect duration instead of 25% spell resistance.
I use mine with Spirit Tornado as only self buff. I like to cast it often because of nearly instant damages + terror anyway.
And my fanatic paladin usually heals herself with Dual Wield White Flame FoD, so the malus isn't detrimental for LoH.
The hostile effect duration reduction synergizes well with Sacred Immolation (works also for Forbidden Fist)

Edited August 13, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Not So Clever Hound]

20 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Corpse Eater with BPM :
- Forbidden Pie : -3 Diplomacy, +4 Resolve, Mind Affliction Resistance, +5 Corpse Eater PL

That is a sweet and sensible buff to the class, actually making it very much worthwhile on paper. Nice job @Elric Galad.

Now you can also wear Effigy's Husk for a full Silence of the Lambs vibe.  

[Elric Galad]

17 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

That is a sweet and sensible buff to the class, actually making it very much worthwhile on paper. Nice job @Elric Galad.

It's not even original. I simply took what devs already did, buffed up the values, et voilà !

17 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

Now you can also wear Effigy's Husk for a full Silence of the Lambs vibe.  

And also play a Witch. Because there's nothing like feasting upon one's corpse after you've already drank one's soul.

 

[Elric Galad]

24 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

That is a sweet and sensible buff to the class, actually making it very much worthwhile on paper. Nice job @Elric Galad.

Designer's note : note that Forbidden pie is designed so Corpse Eater will be resistant to all afflictions above 50% due to Unflitching (one of the best barbarian passive by the way, if not one the best defensive passive of the whole game). This isn't new, you can do it with Luminous Lobster / Wael Mojito / Captain Banquet, but yep, it's a specific synergy of the class.

Now I do think that there isn't many Class Combination* / Subclass / Single Class / Abilities that still feel too bad with my mod. But you can help it to be tested and name one if you find  (and I don't think there are too OP either)  

(I'm not saying that they aren't bad Subclass Combination. Some are dumb. Hey, Streetfighter / Tactician !)

[Hoo]

By the way, I found an excellent thread which describes the impact of PL scaling written by @thelee; 

So, based on this, I assume the PL bonus for Corpse-Eater would provide (in case of +5PL food):

Carnage: +10 accuracy, +50% damage

Blood Storm: +25% buff duration, +50% DoT damage and +25% longer duration of the raw DoT damage (I'm not sure about this DoT damage)
Spirit Tornado: +25% buff duration, +10 accuracy, +50% damage, +1.25 PEN

Driving Roar/Dazing Shout: +50% damage, +25% debuff duration, +10 accuracy

Lion's Sprint: +25% buff duration

Heart of Fury: Does this spell benefit from PL? I'm not sure

Instrument of Boundless Rage: +10 accuracy, +50% damage

Stalwart Defiance/Savage Courage: +25% duration

Panther's Leap/Dragon Leap: +10 accuracy, +50% damage, +25% duration

Barbaric Smash/Crushing Blow: +50% damage (I'm not sure)

 

Am I missing something?

[Not So Clever Hound]

38 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Because there's nothing like feasting upon one's corpse after you've already drank one's soul.

35 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

I'm not saying that they aren't bad Subclass Combination. Some are dumb. Hey, Streetfighter / Tactician !

Haha right or Helwalker/Berserker a.k.a "I'm my own worst enemy". One of few characters that will literally die from standing around.

 

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Hoo said:

By the way, I found an excellent thread which describes the impact of PL scaling written by @thelee; 

So, based on this, I assume the PL bonus for Corpse-Eater would provide (in case of +5PL food):

Based on rules B and E1, it's only +1 Accuracy per PL and +5% damages per PL. So +5 accuracy and +25% for 5 PL, not +10 and +50%. The PL bonus damages is multiplicative with any additive modifier (such as MIG, weapon bonus, etc). I won't repeat for your list review below.

1 hour ago, Hoo said:

Carnage: +10 accuracy, +50% damage

Blood Storm: +25% buff duration, +50% DoT damage and +25% longer duration of the raw DoT damage (I'm not sure about this DoT damage)

DoT damages and duration should work.

1 hour ago, Hoo said:

Spirit Tornado: +25% buff duration, +10 accuracy, +50% damage, +1.25 PEN

Driving Roar/Dazing Shout: +50% damage, +25% debuff duration, +10 accuracy

Lion's Sprint: +25% buff duration

Heart of Fury: Does this spell benefit from PL? I'm not sure

Yes, it should work. All weapon attack should get +5% multiplicative bonus per PL.

1 hour ago, Hoo said:

Instrument of Boundless Rage: +10 accuracy, +50% damage

Stalwart Defiance/Savage Courage: +25% duration

Panther's Leap/Dragon Leap: +10 accuracy, +50% damage, +25% duration

Barbaric Smash/Crushing Blow: +50% damage (I'm not sure)

Yes, it works, but +25% only.

1 hour ago, Hoo said:

Am I missing something?

See above.

1 hour ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

 

Haha right or Helwalker/Berserker a.k.a "I'm my own worst enemy". One of few characters that will literally die from standing around.

 

Or power itself up, it depends on your perspective

" but MIG also increase my helaing potential

- but Jack, you're a Barbarian / Monk, you don't have a healing potential"

Edited August 13, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Not So Clever Hound]

8 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

" but MIG also increase my helaing potential

- but Jack, you're a Barbarian / Monk, you don't have a healing potential"

"Jack? Oh no, Jaaaaaaaaaaack!"

Poor old Jack died at Level 1 from being too excited about Frenzy.

[Elric Galad]

2 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

"Jack? Oh no, Jaaaaaaaaaaack!"

Poor old Jack died at Level 1 from being too excited about Frenzy.

He was a min maxer. He maxed offense. He mined survival.

[Hoo]

9 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Based on rules B and E1, it's only +1 Accuracy per PL and +5% damages per PL. So +5 accuracy and +25% for 5 PL, not +10 and +50%. The PL bonus damages is multiplicative with any additive modifier (such as MIG, weapon bonus, etc). I won't repeat for your list review below.

DoT damages and duration should work.

Yes, it should work. All weapon attack should get +5% multiplicative bonus per PL.

Yes, it works, but +25% only.

See above.

Or power itself up, it depends on your perspective

" but MIG also increase my helaing potential

- but Jack, you're a Barbarian / Monk, you don't have a healing potential"

Ohhh, thank you for the correction!

Well, PL bonus seems a bit weaker than What I've thought, since taking the buff from the special foods is alternative to consume one of the other food. 

I would probably still pick Berserker in most cases...

 

[Elric Galad]

7 minutes ago, Hoo said:

Ohhh, thank you for the correction!

Well, PL bonus seems a bit weaker than What I've thought, since taking the buff from the special foods is alternative to consume one of the other food. 

I would probably still pick Berserker in most cases...

Yep, but this food also have effect apart PL buff. +4 RES and mind affliction resistance isn't bad.

That said, yes, it is by far the most specialised barb subclass. Bigger abilities has an edge when you need t take the advantage quickly. Also it gets Carnage bonus from his PL food, as well as an extra ability when facing certain foes (infinite Rage vs Belranga). So it's normal if Corpse Eater isn't always cost efficient.

[Hoo]

16 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Yep, but this food also have effect apart PL buff. +4 RES and mind affliction resistance isn't bad.

That said, yes, it is by far the most specialised barb subclass. Bigger abilities has an edge when you need t take the advantage quickly. Also it gets Carnage bonus from his PL food, as well as an extra ability when facing certain foes (infinite Rage vs Belranga). So it's normal if Corpse Eater isn't always cost efficient.

 

I'm considering Corpse-Eater MC that focus on Carnage Passive + Blood Storm + several good passives of Barbarian. The PL bonus for Carnage, aka. +25% damage and +5 Accuracy, would be sweet and Blood Storm would mitigate the cost penalty. Lord Darryn's Voulge is probably the one of the best weapon for Corpse-Eater with the improved Carnage (Static Charge/Thunder's On Hit effect is applied on Carnage, isn't it?). 

 

The thing I can't decide yet, however, is which subclass would fit with Corpse-Eater MC, especially with the Carnage of higher accuracy. Since the Carnage attack is not counted as Weapon Attack, there would be little synergy with other subclass I guess. 

[dgray62]

For thematic reasons only, I always wanted to play a Corpse eater/shifter, a werewolf that consumes the corpses of its victims. This patch makes the build worthwhile. On the other hand, Forbidden Pie would be great for a corpse eater/forbidden fist build.

[Boeroer]

7 hours ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

Haha right or Helwalker/Berserker a.k.a "I'm my own worst enemy". One of few characters that will literally die from standing around.

I played a Berserker/Helwalker (even with Hylea's Talons) and he was actually very good. As soon as you have decent healing options in the party there's no other Monk combo that has such fast wound generation. Spend your wounds all the time and pick Rooting Pain. Just make sure you are not confused anymore because else your own Rooting Pain procs will interrupt you.
 

6 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

- but Jack, you're a Barbarian / Monk, you don't have a healing potential"

Jack has Savage or even Stalwart Defiance though which works well enough for a Berserker/Helwalker if you have Voidward, too.

A bad combo is maybe Unbroken/Debonaire?  Psion/Monk could also be... suboptimal.

8 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Unflitching (one of the best barbarian passive by the way, if not one the best defensive passive of the whole game).

Yes, it's great.

The best part about Unflinching is imo that you can get rid of any affliction - no matter the tier - completely by alternating between >50% and <50%. If you are paralyzed and then drop below 50%, then get healed back up to over 50% you will only be immobilized. Drop below 50% again and get healed up and you're only hobbled and so on. It happens from time to time just with the natural flow of battle, especially if you are a Berserker who has to get healed every now and then. It's like the chanter phrases that apply resistance periodically and will remove afflictions gradually.

1 hour ago, dgray62 said:

For thematic reasons only, I always wanted to play a Corpse eater/shifter, a werewolf that consumes the corpses of its victims. This patch makes the build worthwhile. On the other hand, Forbidden Pie would be great for a corpse eater/forbidden fist build.

Note that the Corpse Eater food only raises Barbarian PLs. Unfortunaly it wouldn't do anything for your Monk abilities (unless Elric changed that). 

 

 

[Elric Galad]

8 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Note that the Corpse Eater food only raises Barbarian PLs. Unfortunaly it wouldn't do anything for your Monk abilities (unless Elric changed that). 

No I didn't. Everybody may eat forbidden pie. So +5 all PL would benefit every case. Brrr, I'm not promoting corpse eating that much.

However, all other bonuses work for other classes. Which lead to the actual point : I also changed the secondary effects of Kith food. Forbidden Pie provides +4 Resolve among other effects, which is a nice static boost to reduce the duration of Forbidden curse.

And FORBIDDEN PIE for FORBIDDEN FIST sounds good. Like you do FORBIDDEN STUFF. Oh, my abilities are so FORBIDDENLY EDGY, you can't be as FORBIDDEN as ME. Of course, I wear a black cloak, black boots, and you know what ? A black and slightly red cap.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Not So Clever Hound]

6 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I played a Berserker/Helwalker (even with Hylea's Talons) and he was actually very good

What I read here is rather that you, Sir, were very good at keeping him alive . Sure, with constant party healing and babysitting to spend the wounds, and no Confusion… but are you telling me that especially in the beginning, he didn’t die more than his fair share of times compared to the rest of his crew?

[dgray62]

20 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

No I didn't. Everybody may eat forbidden pie. So +5 all PL would benefit every case. Brrr, I'm not promoting corpse eating that much.

Wow, that's great. I recommended FF just for the +4 RES. But +5 PL on top would be fantastic. But didn't the food description say "+5 Corpse Eater PL"? As a result, I assumed it was for barb abilities only.

[Elric Galad]

10 minutes ago, dgray62 said:

Wow, that's great. I recommended FF just for the +4 RES. But +5 PL on top would be fantastic. But didn't the food description say "+5 Corpse Eater PL"? As a result, I assumed it was for barb abilities only.

No I said IF the bonus wasn't corpse eater only, then there would be no way to ensure it is restricted to Corpse Eater and his Multiclasses, since everybody can eat corpse. Bonus is corpse eater abilities only, and I won't change that  

That said, a character may want to use Forbidden pie for another bonus, especially because it is the highest food bonus to resolve.

[Boeroer]

15 hours ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

What I read here is rather that you, Sir, were very good at keeping him alive . Sure, with constant party healing and babysitting to spend the wounds, and no Confusion… but are you telling me that especially in the beginning, he didn’t die more than his fair share of times compared to the rest of his crew?

In the beginning the self damage part isn't that punishing imo because encounters are quite short and the self dmg ticks quite low. He fell over a few times but not that often. I mean I knew what I build there so I took extra care. Of course it helps immensely to have Lay on Hands in the party. 

[dgray62]

2 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

No I said IF the bonus wasn't corpse eater only, then there would be no way to ensure it is restricted to Corpse Eater and his Multiclasses, since everybody can eat corpse. Bonus is corpse eater abilities only, and I won't change that  

That said, a character may want to use Forbidden pie for another bonus, especially because it is the highest food bonus to resolve.

Thanks for the clarification. I misread your response. Truly, +5 PL unrestricted would be über OP.

[Elric Galad]

8 minutes ago, dgray62 said:

Thanks for the clarification. I misread your response. Truly, +5 PL unrestricted would be über OP.

People would literally eat other people for that.

[Hoo]

10 hours ago, dgray62 said:

Thanks for the clarification. I misread your response. Truly, +5 PL unrestricted would be über OP.

Hmm, how about lowering the PL bonus from the foods while making it general PL bonus instead of Corpse-Eater only? This would be good alternative Berserker/Caster Combination. Berserker gives higher PEN bonus which is good for Nuke-type spells, and the general PL bonus of Corpse-Eater would be relatively fit with buff/debuff spells imo, PL bonus is still good for damage spells too, though.

[Elric Galad]

Just now, Hoo said:

Hmm, how about lowering the PL bonus from the foods while making it general PL bonus instead of Corpse-Eater only? This would be good alternative Berserker/Caster Combination. Berserker gives higher PEN bonus which is good for Nuke-type spells, and the general PL bonus of Corpse-Eater would be relatively fit with buff/debuff spells imo, PL bonus is still good for damage spells too, though.

No. Everyone can eat Kith meat.

That would buff all the classes, not just Corpse Eater.

[Hoo]

3 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

No. Everyone can eat Kith meat.

That would buff all the classes, not just Corpse Eater.

Oh, I was misunderstanding about the food; I thought there was some penalty when eating it without Corpse-Eater subclass. I was wrong... Sorry for that.