A bit of Advice mid-run through party POTD/Ironman

[Elric Galad]

3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

There's no Power Level cap.

Speaking of FoD... I think in my next run I want to try a SC Kind Wayfarer with a Chanter in the party (for unlimited Zeal). I could just trigger SI and then spam FoD endlessly for healing and damage - which should be really easy to setup in AI as a "hands-off" type of character. I find that I forget my fifth party members more and more often so maybe it's time for a bot.  Don't know yet whether ranged or melee weapons... but dual wielding I think. 

White Flame DW is really crazy. To whoever wants a FoD build, I would always recommand it over Bleak Walker (unless specifically for 2-hander - uh oh chromoprismatic FoD). With White Flame, you can basically skip using healing dedicated abilities (still picking LoH because fire immune/absorbing). 

[NotDumbEnough]

I think the main downside of a single class Paladin is your inability to deal with fire resistant foes. And since there are quite a few enemies that are even immune or heal from fire damage, it feels exceptionally bad to have a fire damage focused MC. Same issue with Priest of Magran. It's one of the few gripes I have with PoE2: even something crazy like 30AR so that you always underpen would be fine. Straight up immunity to a certain form of damage can feel really bad, especially for your first play through.

[Boeroer]

Yes, some alternative would have been nice. But you don't have to use Flames of Devotion, Sacred Immolation or Brand Enemy. You'll still have auto attacks and Lay on Hands and all the other non-fire stuff. I do like Inspired Beacon. With a SC Paladin you'll have enough Zeal at the highest levels (with the proper party) that its cost doesn't matter much and +40% dmg and blinded foes is pretty nice if you don't have to manage Zeal a lot. Combine with 20% dmg from Sworn Enemy and your dmg output isn't bad even against fire immune enemies. And at least against Vessels, Spirits and all summoned creatures the SC Paladin has an alternative.

By the way: can a confused Paladin cast Exortations on himself?

Edit: tested it quickly - no, the Paladin cannot.  

  

Edited August 12, 2021 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

10 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

By the way: can a confused Paladin cast Exortations on himself?

Edit: tested it quickly - no, the Paladin cannot.  

  

Yeah, exclusion of self-target and hostile/non hostile are two different things.

For example, you can't Distract yourself with a smoke grenade even if you're in the friendly-fire AoE (too bad for Streetfighter).

[Not So Clever Hound]

1 hour ago, NotDumbEnough said:

even something crazy like 30AR so that you always underpen would be fine

Yes great point, or possibly that AR debuffs like Expose Vulnerabilities or CON Afflictions like Weaken/Enfeeble could soften damage immunities... anything that would feel more like a puzzle to solve and less like "Sorry Priest of Magran, try again".

To be fair, in the vast majority of RPGs you can't just specialize in one element type and be victorious against all foes. And usually Fire is the most commonly resisted element because it's the typical go-to for many players. Or sometimes these things are more obviously relevant to the game environment, e.g. go try to specialize in Cold damage in Icewind Dale . Or in the newer Divinity games, Poison that heals undead. But those games don't "force" any character build into having almost only offensive abilities that deal the most commonly resisted damage type, and they often offer tools to circumvent immunities.

Last thought on the topic... yes, Deadfire has (too?) many fire-resistant foes, but at the same time, against everybody else it gives you tools to make Fire attacks absolutely bonkers - Ring of Focused Flames + Magran's Favor + Sun & Moon.

[Boeroer]

Wait a sec... did I just see two procs of White Flames from one shot because of a bounce? I used Fire in the Hole...

Would a Kind Wayfarer/Ranger with Driving Flight and Fire in the Hole + another weapon do 5 procs?

Is that known/confirmed? Because if it is I think I found my preferred weapon(s) on this SC Kind Wayfarer... because with Powder Burns it's also very easy to kill the non-scaling skellies of Many Lives Pass By - even if they get healed by my own actions.

Edit: nope. There's just two entries in the log that are based on the same healing action.   

Edited August 12, 2021 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

I think I'll settle for Scordeo's Edge Trophy + Eccea's Arcane Blaster for my SC Kind Wayfarer. The shooting speed is awesome with Rushed Reload + Opening Barrage and OB also speeds up the rest of my recovery (for everything else - reactivity is important). With RIng of Focused Flame, Ring of the Marksman and Acina's Tricorn + the build-in +10 ACC from FoD I can afford to use Rushed Reload + dual wielding + Two Weapon Style instead of single pistol.

I know by using pistols I'll miss the PLs from stuff like Magran's Favor etc. - but I don't really care that much because I will be shooting so fast and Zeal will be endless (chanter in party, don't know yet whether Beckoner or Troubadour). For Shared Flames to be good I need to stand amidst my comrades, too. Also for AI ranged combat is easier to manage since little movement is involved. And I never really leaned into a proper pistol build, so yay...   

At the highest levels this guy will just shoot until his barrels melt. As backup I have scepters (modal always on bc. self damage gets healed immediately). They are a little slower but have higher ACC and of course the sweet crush damage. If I shoot the non-pierce immune enemies first I'll have some stacks of Opening Barrage that can be used for the scepters, too.

Sorry for derailing the thread.
 

   

Edited August 12, 2021 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I think I'll settle for Scordeo's Edge

Mmmm, only in Age of Empire 2 Scimitar are used as ranged weapons. Are you speaking about Scordeo's Trophy ?

[Boeroer]

Eh, yes, I meant Scordeo's Trophy, sorry. 

[Torm51]

This thread has turned into an amazing Paladin thread, my favorite

 

@Boeroer what are your attributes for your shooter Paladin (I think this Renaissance/ Very late medival Paladin is cool).Almost reminds me of our PoE 1 quick switch arbalest Paladins. God tier alpha strike, tanks and a damage dealer once you got SI. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Torm51

[Torm51]

Also @Elric Galadi do not take high Con my man. Flat 10 Con with tough is good to go for a Crusader to basically ignore SI self damage.  I like SI but as Elric says it’s expensive.  I also like what @theleesaid in POE 1 SI was a no brainer, I feel that other than the cost it’s a more interesting pick in POE 2.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Torm51

[Boeroer]

Yeah, given that you already "pay" with a lot of health it's def. too expensive. 

I did a few test runs with Kind Pistolfarer and he can heal himself up good enough with (White) Shared Flames while running Sacred Immolation. I plan on upgrading to the healing part so that I'd only activate it once enemies reach may backline (where I'll be standing). It will then damage enemies while potentially healing my allies and I think that's a good failsafe. 

I want good(not necessarily maxed) INT, MIG, DEX and PER - the classic damage dealer attributes. But I won't drop CON too low. RES on the other hand can go down I think. 

Thinking about doing a Single Class only playthrough... What should the tank (or the one guy who engages and draws all the attention first) be? SC Fighter? They are a bit lame but I found a fun combo with a SC Wizard who would cast a biiig Pull of Eora on the Fighter (who is immune to pull effects) who then does Clean Sweep with Body Blows. It's push-pull-push-pull-push-pull and pretty hilarious against numerous weaker enemies - but I fear it's not good against tough nuts...?

Other ideas for a SC tank (non-Paladin and non-Chanter because I already have those)? Stalker with Whirling Strikes? Forbidden Fist? Berserker (keep in mind the White Flames and stuff) who could kill my skellies for unlimited Zeal right away? SC Wizard (maybe horrible against Arcane Dampener)? Furyshaper with Blood Ward?

Woukd be cool to bring official companions and Sidekicks...

[Elric Galad]

7 hours ago, Torm51 said:

Also @Elric Galadi do not take high Con my man. Flat 10 Con with tough is good to go for a Crusader to basically ignore SI self damage.  I like SI but as Elric says it’s expensive.  I also like what @theleesaid in POE 1 SI was a no brainer, I feel that other than the cost it’s a more interesting pick in POE 2.

SI feels good for 2 zeal (but not too strong) on my fanatic. Committing to cast, but still brings a lot of value. This character has 15 Resolve and normal Con (but is a Fanatic with a couple of items to boost it). Also, with BPM mod, Mage Slayer gets -25% Beneficial and Hostile effect duration instead of the random spell resistance (that does not work on many things that would otherwise qualify as magic...), which helps SI too. I didn't have to dedicate my ring slot to Voidward either. It is still a significant blow to your HP and spamming White Flames FoD is usually a good idea after casting SI. My fanatic almost killed herlsef vs Menzzago and his clique yesterday... But since it was almost, casting SI was the right choice, ney ? 

(Note that Moon Godlikes have a special 25% raw damage resistance with BPM mod too. This is noticeable for SI)

The fact you don't cast it every encounter is indeed a big plus in term of design.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

19 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Thinking about doing a Single Class only playthrough... What should the tank (or the one guy who engages and draws all the attention first) be? SC Fighter? They are a bit lame but I found a fun combo with a SC Wizard who would cast a biiig Pull of Eora on the Fighter (who is immune to pull effects) who then does Clean Sweep with Body Blows. It's push-pull-push-pull-push-pull and pretty hilarious against numerous weaker enemies - but I fear it's not good against tough nuts...?

Other ideas for a SC tank (non-Paladin and non-Chanter because I already have those)? Stalker with Whirling Strikes? Forbidden Fist? Berserker (keep in mind the White Flames and stuff) who could kill my skellies for unlimited Zeal right away? SC Wizard (maybe horrible against Arcane Dampener)? Furyshaper with Blood Ward?

Woukd be cool to bring official companions and Sidekicks...

Serafen is nice as a SC tank. You can't go wrong with Driving Roar SC Barbarian. But this isn't very original. Maybe Dazing Shout instead ? Basically a free win vs everything not resistant to MIG afflictions.

Mirke has High CON for a tank and can be SC monk. Safe choice then.

I have a Whirling Strikes Stalker right now and she is working fine as a dual tank with her bear. The build isn't based on BPM specific features but I must admit it helps every time Whirling Strikes doesn't feel optimal. I've found a significant number of bugs with Ranger in general (from the not so significant Whirling Strikes PL scaling to the super annoying pets not getting Camouflage/Defensive Bond and of course, the crème de la crème : Hunter's Claw Save/reload stacking). She has high Arcana and History for Giftbearer Cloak and backup use. I tend to specialize the less versatile characters in Arcana (and you'll want High MIG and INT for Whirling Strikes anyway).

Edited August 13, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Not So Clever Hound]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

a fun combo with a SC Wizard who would cast a biiig Pull of Eora on the Fighter (who is immune to pull effects) who then does Clean Sweep with Body Blows. It's push-pull-push-pull-push-pull and pretty hilarious against numerous weaker enemies - but I fear it's not good against tough nuts...?

What about mixing that with Barbarian so you can get the double Carnage effect from Clear Out every time? Could also have it with Amra + Clean Sweep actually, but Body Blows + Brute Force would be nice.

Or a Swashbuckler with WotEP that would apply AoE Arterial Strike + Clear Out?

Edited August 13, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[Elric Galad]

19 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

What about mixing that with Barbarian so you can get the double Carnage effect from Clear Out every time? Could also have it with Amra + Clean Sweep actually, but Body Blows + Brute Force would be nice.

Or a Swashbuckler with WotEP that would apply AoE Arterial Strike + Clear Out?

Maybe because he was specifically speaking about a SC only playthrough ? 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Not So Clever Hound]

6 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Mayeb because he was specifically speaking about a SC only pkaythrough ?

[Double Facepalm] Thanks, I somehow missed that.

The point about Amra still stands though, but then you're missing out on Body Blows. Maybe you could use Willbreaker + Body Blows once to debuff FORT, then switch to Amra with your SC Fighter? no Devoted then...

EDIT: SC Trickster can be a great Tank too, with fantastic CC abilities and DMG.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[Boeroer]

4 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Mayeb because he was specifically speaking about a SC only pkaythrough ? 

Yes, maybe...

My "tank" doesn't need to deal a lot of damage. He's just there to bind foes initially while the rest of the party unleashes their stuff. Would be cool to debuff the enemies on the fly as well. I was thinking about Cap of the Laughingstock + Ngati's Tusk with max Survival for late game - so all defenses get -10 or more without any hit roll...?

[Elric Galad]

4 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

[Double Facepalm] Thanks, I somehow missed that.

The point about Amra still stands though, but then you're missing out on Body Blows. Maybe you could use Willbreaker + Body Blows once to debuff FORT, then switch to Amra with your SC Fighter? no Devoted then...

EDIT: SC Trickster can be a great Tank too, with fantastic CC abilities and DMG.

For SC, I would anyway choose either Black Jacket or Tactician (for Discipline concern and chain upgraded Clear Out Interrupt).

Willbreaker + Body Blows then switching to WotEP for clear out spamming is fun. But d*mn, even with Body Blows, ennemies tend to have super high Fortitude in this game !

[Not So Clever Hound]

3 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

I was thinking about Cap of the Laughingstock

I love using the Cap on a SC Assassin, but for party play losing access to RES Afflictions is a big no-no for me.

[Elric Galad]

6 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

 I was thinking about Cap of the Laughingstock + Ngati's Tusk with max Survival for late game - so all defenses get -10 or more without any hit roll...?

And blackened plate for the -1 AR aura ?

[Not So Clever Hound]

7 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

But d*mn, even with Body Blows, ennemies tend to have super high Fortitude in this game !

I feel you  I don't know if an SC Chanter was planned in this party comp, but with The Long Night's Drink + Body Blows you can get serious FORT Debuff. Plus a Fighter will have Confident Aim and other ACC buffs to consistently land subsequent Clean Sweeps.

[Boeroer]

37 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

EDIT: SC Trickster can be a great Tank too, with fantastic CC abilities and DMG.

I find SC Trickster lacks sturdyness in the later game. His Deflection and Reflex can be good but the rest... Also the engagement is low unless you get special gear and then pick Persistant Distraction.

So far I want to bring those:

- SC Kind Wayfarer pistolero (Shared White Flames)
- SC mortar Streetfighter (Gambit)
- SC Beckoner or Troubadour (skeletons)

A Berserker with Grave Calling could be helpful as "tank"? If he's the main char I could give him Abraham. The healing from White Flames + Chilling Grave skeleton kills (Abraham's healing for 10 points per kill) would keep him alive easily. It's just so that
a) my poor, poor graphics card  and
b) too good in a one-trick-pony way to be fun?

Maybe if I let him operate on AI completely and make him a Pale Elf with all the freeze-AR and fortitude I can get? I will get freeze-paralyzed by Grave Calling eventually... But with DEX and PER resistances and the Chanter's chants it might get might removed periodically though... Or just not take the paralyze effect? Or wear Sandals of the Water Lily maybe? Don't have to care about the defenses too much if everything is paralyzed except you? Hm... Berserker with Water Lily sandals. I like it.   

I already played a solo SC Furyshaper - so while that's cool I wouldn't like the repetition I guess.

I tried a SC Black Jacket once but it was a bit too boring yet required so much micro due to being build around switchig weapon sets all the time. Although doing a Clean Sweep with Morning Star and then Ngati's Tusk seems to be a good way to lower all defenses in an AoE pretty quickly without too much fuss.

The good thing about Barb and Fighter is that they can both get a good number of engagement slots easily (Defender Stance/Barbaric Shout). And they don't need a ton of attention.

I haven't thought about SC Cipher yet. With Borrowed Instincts and stuff... could he be sturdy enough to survive an initial onslaught and also get off some spells? Maybe Beguiler who doesn't need the dmg output? Just cast Deceptions? Get some engagement gear? I wouldn't want to operate with Mind Control too much because it messes up AI (which is supposed to run at least the Paladin). Also it would be cool to let the "tank" get run by AI, too. Doesn't sound like caster to me then...

What could be a AI friedly caster is Wizard. Just setup a selfbuffing routine I think and then cast whatever debuffs/CC. 

I could also see the SC Beckoner or Troubadour being that "tank". The engagment can be substituted with summons and I wouldn't need offensive attributes at all. So everything could go into defense. After all his main purpose is to give fuel to the Paladin. If he's also tanking a bit... Also the AI setup is fairly easy then...? On the otehr hand I wanted to run Sure Handed Ila in the backline. Argh...

  

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

32 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

A Berserker with Grave Calling could be helpful as "tank"? If he's the main char I could give him Abraham. The healing from White Flames + Chilling Grave skeleton kills (Abraham's healing for 10 points per kill) would keep him alive easily. It's just so that
a) my poor, poor graphics card  and
b) too good in a one-trick-pony way to be fun?

I don't get why it would be a one-trick pony. SC Barbs are good in general, you don't have to rely on Grave Calling abuse.

Grave Calling Barb + Chanter for the combo feels like a not very fun constraint for SC party. You have only 5 classes, and 2 of them are required for the combo. It is less constraining in a MC party. 

Also, if it's just about filling Plaadin's Zeal, I feel a Beckoner is enough without requiring the Skeleton specialization. Ancient Weapon with 25% health are plenty vulnerable enough to die conveniently and give a sizable amount of zeal back. Maybe less, but also not blocking your whole party design just to feed your Paladin.

But here I'm just speaking about what I feel fun (while still efficient enough). I also hate Blunderbuss Streetfighter with a passion, since it feels like the cheapest combo of the game.

32 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

I haven't thought about SC Cipher yet. With Borrowed Instincts and stuff... could he be sturdy enough to survive an initial onslaught and also get off some spells? Maybe Beguiler who doesn't need the dmg output? Just cast Deceptions? Get some engagement gear? I wouldn't want to operate with Mind Control too much because it messes up AI (which is supposed to run at least the Paladin). Also it would be cool to let the "tank" get run by AI, too. Doesn't sound like caster to me then...

 I would consider SC Cipher in such a party (but not as tanks). Rod Cipher to be exact for Blast + Shared Nightmare abuse. Ancestor's Memory at level 13 could help a lot since SC tends to be a bit scarce on resources.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Not So Clever Hound]

53 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

I find SC Trickster lacks sturdyness in the later game. His Deflection and Reflex can be good but the rest... Also the engagement is low unless you get special gear and then pick Persistant Distraction.

That's fair, but I thought since you have your White Flames dude, keeping everybody healed while the Trickster spams Walls of Many Colors. But this could get messy with your Pull of Eora idea + I understand that you don't want to babysit two Rogues.

53 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Hm... Berserker with Water Lily sandals. I like it.   

Edited August 13, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound