Crusader, Sacred Immolation, POTD (Party)

[Torm51]

So I’ve made many Crusaders as my frontline tank but never using SI.  I want to try a build around it.  Gear wise I know what I need, the only question is attributes.  I feel like you are starved.  You need MAX RES for  reduction of SI’s hostile effect.  You want good Might (only way to increase SI damage besides PL), INT for AOE size, PER for ACC and you can’t dump CON you need the HP and you can’t dump dex because your recovery will be titanically slow.  What do you guys think a good attribute distribution is? You have to pick 3, maybe keep PER at 10 since it’s a party and not solo? Use party members to debuff and give ACC?

[Torm51]

Actually maybe I want base INT so the duration isn’t crazy?

[Not So Clever Hound]

I know we've discussed separately so you're probably not looking for a repeat of my last answer  but just for the sake of the group discussion I will paste my last point:

Maybe go (with BB) on something like 18/10/10/18/18/16? Or 18/10/10/16/18/18? With e.g. the belt of Eoten CON and the Tough ability, you don't need to pump CON IMO especially because you will have all your healing to top it up. Especially if you're keeping the self DMG duration in check with high RES.

I would keep high INT to maximize impact of SI. with high RES and gear as Boeroer pointed out in the other Crusader thread we discussed, I think you should be fine.

[Boeroer]

If you get some items with -x% to hostile effect duration and substitute with food that does the same and high RES you can go with high INT and MIG. Because both is also good for your Lay on Hands which you might want to use on yourself after triggering SI. Also Voidward and other dmg reduction works. 

Besides that SI is just better with a big AoE. 

I think you can use the Harley pet to boost SI's dmg a little further. 

Lowish CON shouldn't be a problem if your healing is strong enough and the duration of the self dmg short enough. 

For SI itself DEX does nothing - but you have to get there first so... I wouldn't drop it too low.

Don't forget to get a RES inspiration before triggering SI. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Boeroer

[Raven Darkholme]

If you want to make a build around SI, why not go monk/pala?

No need to even go max res, if you have ring of lone wanderer using clarity of agony will remove SI even with a starting res of 10 (as long as you have close to all the res boni you can get permanently in game).

Also you could just go Forbidden Fist, that way you have a nice synergy even if you want to go max res.

[Elric Galad]

I still have the opinion that SI is super meh though. Not because of the self damages (at least one can build around them), but because 4 zeals is as overcosted as it could be. Maybe it's tolerably good on SC Paladin with Divine retribution and some Summons (this one won't lack Zeal, and you can also upgrade SI).

[Torm51]

@Elric GaladI think that is the biggest hit on the build.  Due to zeal cost maybe its only worth on an SC Paladin with Divine Retribution.  I did ONE play through as an SC Paladin with SI and the guy 1000% massacred everything with SI and FoD.  But I cheesed chanter summons and Divine retribution to get constant zeal.  He was good with a party on POTD and was second in damage after a Mindstalker.  I never played an SC Paladin again because I thought it was ridiculous to use a party slot just to feed the Paladin zeal lol  It is literally THE ONLY REASON TO SC Paladin..and I have always felt that Deadfire let me down with my fav class turning it basically into a multiclass only class .  Call me rigid but if I want to play a Paladin, I want to play a damn Paladin lmao.

 

PS off topic but what i mentioned above about the SC Paladin and it not being the best as a SC is why I did not want multiclass lol I felt Obsidian would lose focus on developing the classes individually andI IMO they did.  Josh mentions in an interview that he felt they fell short on many SC martial classes.  I liked the POE 1 classes better.  You play your class and dip into minor abilities of other classes. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Torm51

[Torm51]

@Raven DarkholmeI saw Boer and Hound talking about Crusader builds and saw Boer mention a solo Goldpact Knight/Unbroken build based on the unarmed attack buckler (Tutillo's Palm), the monk training unarmed training ability and SI.  It's basically an engagement tank who anchors melee enemies and then blows them up with SI, at the same time you are duel wielding a weapon (or your fist) and a shield with good speed since you are Duel wielding giving you faster reactivity  for lay on hands etc and pretty good melee ability for a tank.  As Eric said maybe the zeal cost is too much though?  At max level how much zeal will I have to throw out a Sworn Enemy for AR (GP Knight) and a Lay on hands for the self damage?  The zeal cost does seem to be a lot now that we talk about it.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Torm51

[Raven Darkholme]

22 minutes ago, Torm51 said:

@Raven DarkholmeI saw Boer and Hound talking about Crusader builds and saw Boer mention a solo Goldpact Knight/Unbroken build based on the unarmed attack buckler (Tutillo's Palm), the monk training unarmed training ability and SI.  It's basically an engagement tank who anchors melee enemies and then blows them up with SI, at the same time you are duel wielding a weapon (or your fist) and a shield with good speed since you are Duel wielding giving you faster reactivity  for lay on hands etc and pretty good melee ability for a tank.  As Eric said maybe the zeal cost is too much though?  At max level how much zeal will I have to throw out a Sworn Enemy for AR (GP Knight) and a Lay on hands for the self damage?  The zeal cost does seem to be a lot now that we talk about it.

Yeah idk if I would call SI amazing, lets just say it's 10x worse than poe1 version, but it didn't get hit as hard as dragon chant.

I was just thinking that IF you dedicate an entire build to it it's probably wiser to go with a multiclass benefitting from high res in other ways than just the SI.

If you use tuotilo's palm the monk would benefit even more from this.

Getting engagement with non fighters is not that hard either, since there is a "softcap" on how many enemies you can actually engage by the sheer fact not that many enemies can even surround you and the bigger their "circles" the less of them you can engage.

A fighter can definitely get way more engagement on paper than they will actually ever get in combat.

Also keep in mind monks get summons which copy your items, thats way more engagement than a fighter can possibly have just because of game limits.

[Elric Galad]

28 minutes ago, Torm51 said:

@Elric GaladI think that is the biggest hit on the build.  Due to zeal cost maybe its only worth on an SC Paladin with Divine Retribution.  I did ONE play through as an SC Paladin with SI and the guy 1000% massacred everything with SI and FoD.  But I cheesed chanter summons and Divine retribution to get constant zeal. He was good with a party on POTD and was second in damage after a Mindstalker.  I never played an SC Paladin again because I thought it was ridiculous to use a party slot just to feed the Paladin zeal lol  It is literally THE ONLY REASON TO SC Paladin..

To be honest, you don't have to dedicate a party slot to make SC Paladin good enough. With summoners here and there will be enough zeal for an at least functional SC paladin. Beckoner's Animated Weapons are probably the optimal setup of an useful party member who also feed paladins's zeal.

28 minutes ago, Torm51 said:

and I have always felt that Deadfire let me down with my fav class turning it basically into a multiclass only class .  Call me rigid but if I want to play a Paladin, I want to play a damn Paladin lmao.

PS off topic but what i mentioned above about the SC Paladin and it not being the best as a SC is why I did not want multiclass lol I felt Obsidian would lose focus on developing the classes individually andI IMO they did.  Josh mentions in an interview that he felt they fell short on many SC martial classes.  I liked the POE 1 classes better.  You play your class and dip into minor abilities of other classes. 

Agreed on this. The problem is even somewhat deeper with Paladins because they get most of their best tools (bar stoic steel and divine retribution) at low level. Even their mid-level tools are a bit meh (cough cough exhortations)

To be honest, I've modded the game in my own ways to address such issues (sorry for self-promotion, but I even thought about tagging you at time about my paladin's change, given how much you love the class since goo'ol' PoE1 times).

Deadfire Balance Polishing Mod at Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Nexus - Mods and Community (nexusmods.com)

My conclusion is that Paladins in PoE2 are... freakingly well designed, basically having a distinct playstyle (not just fighter/cleric hybrics) as battle commanders/tanks, with both classical (Kind Wayfarer/Shieldbearer) and original (Goldpact, Bleak Walker) paladin fluff... Apart that the tuned numbers of their abilities were just so poorly adjusted. Simply adjusting the numbers make the class feel perfect IMHO.

[Torm51]

 

2 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

To be honest, you don't have to dedicate a party slot to make SC Paladin good enough. With summoners here and there will be enough zeal for an at least functional SC paladin. Beckoner's Animated Weapons are probably the optimal setup of an useful party member who also feed paladins's zeal.

Agreed on this. The problem is even somewhat deeper with Paladins because they get most of their best tools (bar stoic steel and divine retribution) at low level. Even their mid-level tools are a bit meh (cough cough exhortations)

To be honest, I've modded the game in my own ways to address such issues (sorry for self-promotion, but I even thought about tagging you at time about my paladin's change, given how much you love the class since goo'ol' PoE1 times).

Deadfire Balance Polishing Mod at Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Nexus - Mods and Community (nexusmods.com)

My conclusion is that Paladins in PoE2 are... freakingly well designed, basically having a distinct playstyle (not just fighter/cleric hybrics) as battle commanders/tanks, with both classical (Kind Wayfarer/Shieldbearer) and original (Goldpact, Bleak Walker) paladin fluff... Apart that the tuned numbers of their abilities were just so poorly adjusted. Simply adjusting the numbers make the class feel perfect IMHO.

Ya true and I have definitely looked it into your mod and plan to install it.  I was just out of the POE game for a while due to raid Main Tanking in World of Warcraft Classic (for the entirety of it, glad its over lol).  I agree with you the Paladin is unique in that its not some Fighter/Cleric mix but has its own thing as tank/commander support (like the Warlord in DnD? I think?) any ya its cool but the zeal costs stink and late down in the tree they have some powerful abilities but its not many.  That said I beat the game vanilla with no mods long ago so would like to try one more time before installing your mod (which i want to do !)

 

So going down this road...Do I abandon the Crusader SI build? maybe its not what I think it is due to zeal cost and if you want to go Crusader you just grab a two hander or Duel wield and do damage with cheap resource cost abilities like FoD and Discipline Barrage relying on your passives?....or just tank as a Engagement anchor...the problem with Crusader as an engagement guy/tank is that well its all he/she can do if something goes wrong and the party dies you are dead by yourself because you cant do enough damage.

 

If I go the SC Paladin route again what would the attributes look like for you guys?   I did it once but felt the attributes were suboptimal.  I went 15 Might, 15 Int, 15 RES and 13 Con (my old POE 1 rule of 5,5,5,3) and played it as a front line tank with AOE damage through SI, basically how you played it in POE 1 (no quick switch Arbalest FoD  like in POE 1though). But it seems that POTD in Deadfire is A LOT HARDER, like cartoonish hard sometimes (dont get me started on the arcadey mega bosses lol).  You get random mobs in encounters on POTD that sometimes are even weird thematically....like double fire Naga or some weird stuff like that.  I feel like this time in POTD (from my deadfire completion experiences) you have to min max a lot more for the main character to carry the weight at their designed role or maybe I am just worse at this game then POE 1.  I only played PoTD/Ironman in POE 1 and won most of the time.  I have only had TWO successful POTD/Ironman runs in deadfire...

 

PS its great to talk to the old gang again

Edited July 23, 2021 by Torm51

[Raven Darkholme]

50 minutes ago, Torm51 said:

 

Ya true and I have definitely looked it into your mod and plan to install it.  I was just out of the POE game for a while due to raid Main Tanking in World of Warcraft Classic (for the entirety of it, glad its over lol).  I agree with you the Paladin is unique in that its not some Fighter/Cleric mix but has its own thing as tank/commander support (like the Warlord in DnD? I think?) any ya its cool but the zeal costs stink and late down in the tree they have some powerful abilities but its not many.  That said I beat the game vanilla with no mods long ago so would like to try one more time before installing your mod (which i want to do !)

 

So going down this road...Do I abandon the Crusader SI build? maybe its not what I think it is due to zeal cost and if you want to go Crusader you just grab a two hander or Duel wield and do damage with cheap resource cost abilities like FoD and Discipline Barrage relying on your passives?....or just tank as a Engagement anchor...the problem with Crusader as an engagement guy/tank is that well its all he/she can do if something goes wrong and the party dies you are dead by yourself because you cant do enough damage.

 

If I go the SC Paladin route again what would the attributes look like for you guys?   I did it once but felt the attributes were suboptimal.  I went 15 Might, 15 Int, 15 RES and 13 Con (my old POE 1 rule of 5,5,5,3) and played it as a front line tank with AOE damage through SI, basically how you played it in POE 1 (no quick switch Arbalest FoD  like in POE 1though). But it seems that POTD in Deadfire is A LOT HARDER, like cartoonish hard sometimes (dont get me started on the arcadey mega bosses lol).  You get random mobs in encounters on POTD that sometimes are even weird thematically....like double fire Naga or some weird stuff like that.  I feel like this time in POTD (from my deadfire completion experiences) you have to min max a lot more for the main character to carry the weight at their designed role or maybe I am just worse at this game then POE 1.  I only played PoTD/Ironman in POE 1 and won most of the time.  I have only had TWO successful POTD/Ironman runs in deadfire...

 

PS its great to talk to the old gang again

Imo this game is A LOT less about min maxing attributes than Poe1, since you can get so many stat bonuses (if we leave out poe1 priest buffs those were ridicolous ofc) you can get several attributes to 35 on one char and even if you don't min max a stat you can get it close to 20. (Res is probably the craziest, you can get completely dumped res close to 20 without even trying on almost any class).

Just keep in mind RES is a lot less useful in deadfire, than it was in POE1, not saying it's bad or anything but you can tank the entire game with dumped res, if you min max your char for tanking itemwise.

SC paladin is really not that useful, but getting better PL is actually quite nice.

If you ever feel like the game might be too hard on potd, you could always just take a priest with you and trivialize the entire game.

[Torm51]

@Raven Darkholme

 

Maybe I just have not played it as much, or I just need to adapt.  my tactic in POE1 was to stack ACC buffs (you could do that in POE1 AKA Priest buffs lol) and the fit then damage into that window.  That is harder to do in Deadfire.

 

SC Paladin is definitely not as useful other than PLs for SI, Divine Retribution and Light of Pure Zeal which is a great emergency button heal and trivializes the Dragon in Beast of Winter ( on POTD difficulty, I one shot him pretty much it was like 2 second fight lol).

 

Anyway I like these talks: The Crusader, I am starting to think the zeal cost maybe too much to run around with an SI build....I like the MC to be a tank and up front but maybe doing with with a shield on a weapon is over kill on a crusader and you need damage out of him?

Edited July 23, 2021 by Torm51

[Raven Darkholme]

20 minutes ago, Torm51 said:

@Raven Darkholme

 

Maybe I just have not played it as much, or I just need to adapt.  my tactic in POE1 was to stack ACC buffs (you could do that in POE1 AKA Priest buffs lol) and the fit then damage into that window.  That is harder to do in Deadfire.

 

SC Paladin is definitely not as useful other than PLs for SI, Divine Retribution and Light of Pure Zeal which is a great emergency button heal and trivializes the Dragon in Beast of Winter ( on POTD difficulty, I one shot him pretty much it was like 2 second fight lol).

 

Anyway I like these talks: The Crusader, I am starting to think the zeal cost maybe too much to run around with an SI build....I like the MC to be a tank and up front but maybe doing with with a shield on a weapon is over kill on a crusader and you need damage out of him?

Well, fights are definitely longer in this game than they were in POE1 unless you do some SOF cheesing ofc, hehe.

Just the zeal cost isn't that big of a deal in itself for SI, because if you have priest and cipher you could just get perma brilliant on your pala.

I think what @Elric Galadmeant is:

Compared to the zeal cost SI isn't the most effective thing to do with a pala.

My suggestion to go FF/pala was actually based on that type of thought, because it would just synergize very well both with SI and Tuotilo's, would definitely be a viable char, wouldn't be the most min amxed char ever, but quite good.

[Torm51]

PS the inspiration for the SI Crusader build came from this comment credit @Boeroer" For a solo run I think I would have tried Unbroken/Goldpact with Monastic uT and Tuotilo's Palm. Sworn Rival with Gilded Enmity is very cheap and it would stack with the Unbroken's +1 AR. +6 AR + Paladin's AR passives is awesome imo.  With high RES, Ring of the Solitary Wanderer and Strand of Favor Sacred Immolation's self damage part becomes really short. I could get it down to two ticks often enough - which was no big deal. That makes Sacred Immolation much more useful imo but of course you have to pay for the high RES in other places"   This was meant for a solo build, so maybe thats where  my SI Crusader build is MEH.  A Crusader will more than likely need SI and scrolls for AOE dmg if solo.  If it in a party maybe SI is just zeal cost heavy.  

[Torm51]

1 minute ago, Raven Darkholme said:

Well, fights are definitely longer in this game than they were in POE1 unless you do some SOF cheesing ofc, hehe.

Just the zeal cost isn't that big of a deal in itself for SI, because if you have priest and cipher you could just get perma brilliant on your pala.

I think what @Elric Galadmeant is:

Compared to the zeal cost SI isn't the most effective thing to do with a pala.

My suggestion to go FF/pala was actually based on that type of thought, because it would just synergize very well both with SI and Tuotilo's, would definitely be a viable char, wouldn't be the most min amxed char ever, but quite good.

Got ya, makes sense.

[Theosupus]

I built a party of sc pallies with the healing upgrade of SI and having 4 other heal procs and aura regen on each one while killing everything around them was pretty funny.

[Boeroer]

Imagine SC Paladin getting an enemy seeking* summon like "Zealous Spirit" or so at PL 8 or 9 that costs 1 Zeal and explodes on contact...

*all AI driven melee summons are enemy seeking of course. 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Boeroer