Anime - Do you Understannnnnnndu?

[Bartimaeus]

I couldn't make much sense of the movie. It seemed like a re-telling of the same story that randomly added and retconned a bunch of stuff. Also much more direct in trying to get what it wanted to say across, yet felt even more incompetent. I completely gave up about halfway through, .

[majestic]

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

I couldn't make much sense of the movie. It seemed like a re-telling of the same story that randomly added and retconned a bunch of stuff. Also much more direct in trying to get what it wanted to say across, yet felt even more incompetent. I completely gave up about halfway through, .

No, no. The movie makes perfect sense. I'll show you how! The forum software ate my post, but luckily I saved it! Looks like that crap happens when you start typing and someone posts and the forum creates a new page out of it. Stupid forum software. It then tries to post on the old page and cannot because it is full, and simply eats the post.

  Here's the post:

So, five minutes of processing, I end up with an idea, and, believe it or not, the movie actually cleared up a WHOLE LOT of the things that were a bit weird in the show. No, really, I'm... serious. Have another essay! Yay!

Spoiler

Utena literally turned into a car. There are already enough hints that Ohtori Academy is a place where people go to move on. Not necessarily purgatory, but more like limbo, the place you go until you're able to achieve nirvana. In this case the castle and the power of Dios would represent the temptation of the world, named eternity, which probably is also why the castle itself was the biggest obstacle for Himemiya in the car that Utena became. Dios and Akio may or may not have been a real person. The movie suggests he wasn't truly a person, let alone a prince, but if I'm right, in the anime he might have been.

In Buddhism, what its practitioners strive for is to break out of the cycle of death and rebirth and moving on to Nirvana, which is only possibly through attaining enlightenment, which is generally accepted to happen in phases. That maybe means, assuming that the anime and the movie are allegories for Buddhist concepts, that the movie is playing on a higher level of enlightenment than the anime itself, i.e. it actually happens after Anthy and Utena left Anime-Ohtori. The Dios/Akio present in the move is no longer a real person. He's named Lord of the Flies in the movie, assuming the subtitles are correct, and while Buddhism doesn't have an antagonistic force like that, the analogy to everything that's holding you back from achieving true enlightenment still works. Japan is, in the end, a veritable mess of religious influences after all.

So, in the movie, Utena is Himemiya's vehicle to enlightenment, and out of limbo. Since Himemiya is driving, we can also assume that Himemiya is Utena's way to enlightenment. Or rather, the two form a unity that help each other.

There are several buddhist movements, and one of the largest and oldest ones is Mahayana buddhism, which is the basis of Chinese buddhism, which in turn was what Japanese buddhism grew out of. Most forms of buddhism that are practiced in China and Japan are forms of Mahayana (like the most well known in the West - Zen). The oldest still existing movement is Theravada, which is much more common in Sri Lanka and Southeast Asia. The third large movement is Vajrayana, and most widespread in Tibet.

Anyway, history lesson aside, there's the literal meaning of the word Mahayana: Great Vehicle (I'm completely serious, look it up if you don't believe me ). Utena is Anthy's car because Utena helped her move on to the outside world. The world outside the cycle. Nirvana.

That would really make everyone dead, or at least waiting for rebirth. Stuck in limbo, then. Like everyone at the end of Lost.

Akio isn't a real person in the movie because he and Touga are the only main characters (meaning proper duelists with rings) that did not achieve some level or phase of enlightenment (well, Nanami is a bit of an open case). Akio's stuck at the bottom of the Academy tier, and in the film only exists as Anthy's attachments, painful memories, issues, prison of the mind. Open here, is, I think the nature of the other main characters in the movie. They might have moved on, but Jury's lingering obsession with Shiori (and Shiori trying to hold Anthy and Utena back) might suggest that only Utena and Anthy are "real" people in the movie. In the end, it doesn't really matter. I think, based on their dialogue and them helping Utena and Anthy, that Saionji, Miki and Juri were also able to move on. Based on the events of the movie, the others, like Shiori, Kozue and Toga weren't (Toga is only there to hold Utena back, Kozue threatens Miki, Shiori is needlessly antagonistic to Jury).

The Shadows then, are maybe the souls of those who achieved enlightenment and are helping the ones that try. They really do come from outside.

Ruka, Mikage and Wakaba's friend from school might have moved on earlier than the others or were reincarnated.

Tokiko in the anime might actually be someone that's still alive. She can perhaps visit Ohtori through meditation. Speculation. Maybe something not entirely thought out, like Nanami's earlier trip to India. But that was Nanami, she might as well never have left the premises. She's also a cow in this one, suggesting she also didn't move on and is just a fun memory for Utena. Or she actually moved on but has rejected being human - also possible.

Done reading? Too long? Here's a TL;DR:

Spoiler

Revoluationary Girl Utena is one giant allegory for Buddhism.

edit:

Anyway, that's my take on the whole thing. It might mean something else entirely, it was set up to be open to interpretation after all, but the pieces fit neatly together. As much as they can. I also edited the text a bit where my stream of consciousness failed to produce coherent sentences.

Edited July 29, 2021 by majestic
Couple of things cleared up.

[Bartimaeus]

Yep, all that seems legit to me! I'm sure I would've been able to come up with that if I had just thought about it for a few more minutes, .

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Violet Evergarden episode 6. Dolls team up with scribes and there is a comet that comes around every hundred years. Oh and it seems the confrontation in episode 5 didn't have any immediate consequences. Onwards to episode 7.

[majestic]

10 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Yep, all that seems legit to me! I'm sure I would've been able to come up with that if I had just thought about it for a few more minutes, .

 

I just realized something there...
 

Spoiler

Nanami is only persent in the movie on a video tape by the shadows, and we see her as a cow. Combine that with her rejection of the Mark of the Rose in the anime, and there is a decent chance that was meant to show that she actually really reincarnated as a cow. Since the shadows can appear to people in limbo it's ont unreasonable to assume they can also see into the real world to provide guidance. 

Rejection of the Mark of the Rose then means going back to the cycle of death and rebirth. Being reborn as animal is possible, and related to the concept of Karma in the traditional sense. Being a cow tortured by Chu-Chu is her "reward" for being such a wonderful person. 

Yeah, I'm going with Buddhist metaphysics here. A quick google reveals this to be the most common and least outlandish theory out there, so I guess that's it. There are other elements to it too, of course, like Anthy's and Akio's relationship being not dissimilar to those of gods fom polytheistic mythology/religion (Hera and Zeus, for instance, with Zeus constantly cheating on Hera, and Hera being his sister), but not quite, as the were never officially married, or had any children.

Unless the situation where Anthy was killed by the angry mob was meant to imply that the "Rose Bride" stole the "Rose Prince" from the world by marriage. Incest wasn't all too uncommon when it comes to royalty either. Doesn't explain why he is engaged to someone else in Limbo, but... yeah, it kind of works, but it doesn't really say anything more than we already know. 

Also, yeah, to be honest, I'm like totally surprised you didn't immediately get all that, it was so obvious that it was already unsubtle in the way it hit you over the head with what it means!

Spoiler

To be honest, if I had not dealt with the ending of Lost already, I doubt that would have been so readily "apparent". Lost is much more influened by Hinduistic concepts but it does share the cycle of death and rebirth and breaking out of it with Buddhism (very casual observation, so don't hate on me for not being perfectly accurate here). 

 

Edited July 29, 2021 by majestic

[bugarup]

2 hours ago, majestic said:

Also, yeah, to be honest, if I had not dealt with the ending of Lost already, I doubt that would have been so readily "apparent". Lost is much more influened by Hinduistic concepts but it does share the cycle of death and rebirth and breaking out of it with Buddhism (very casual observation, so don't hate on me for not being perfectly accurate here). 

 

Can I at least hate you for being OK with the ending of "Lost"? 

[majestic]

10 hours ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Violet Evergarden episode 6. Dolls team up with scribes and there is a comet that comes around every hundred years. Oh and it seems the confrontation in episode 5 didn't have any immediate consequences. Onwards to episode 7.

6 was probably my least favorite episode. It's an important growing moment for Violet, but the episode was mostly visually impressive. One might not like the character models, but it's impossible to deny the amount of work that went into drawing this.

[majestic]

1 minute ago, bugarup said:

Can I at least hate you for being OK with the ending of "Lost"? 

Who said I was?

The ending of Lost needs to be seen on two seperate levels. First, as an ending to the series, which was simply put terrible beause it resolved nothing, much like the ending of the original Neon Genesis Evangelion anime. Secondly, as a thematic ending, it was fitting for the setting and completely fine.

I just disagree with people who say the ending is bad because it makes no sense. That's not true. It does - make sense, that is. It's still a bad ending to the series.  

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

6 hours ago, majestic said:

6 was probably my least favorite episode. It's an important growing moment for Violet, but the episode was mostly visually impressive. One might not like the character models, but it's impossible to deny the amount of work that went into drawing this.

So far, mine too.

Episode 7 tho, what a kick in the feels.

[Sarex]

Seeing you guys discussing something other than SM got me interested in checking out Violet Evergarden. I'm on episode 4 and I really like it so far, I was really in a mood for a good drama anime.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Sarex

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

15 minutes ago, Sarex said:

Seeing you guys discussing something other than SM got me interested in checking out Violet Evergarden. I'm on episode 4 and I really like it so far, I was really in a mood for a good drama anime.

Hey, we also talk about Madoka, Revolutionary Girl Utena, and JoJo!

Violet Evergarden has been surprisingly good, I think you're right where the first special takes place. It's pretty much a single episode and you won't miss anything by skipping it, but it is good.

[Sarex]

17 minutes ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Hey, we also talk about Madoka, Revolutionary Girl Utena, and JoJo!

Violet Evergarden has been surprisingly good, I think you're right where the first special takes place. It's pretty much a single episode and you won't miss anything by skipping it, but it is good.

I did see there is a movie and something else. Should I watch the special now or leave it for after?

[majestic]

30 minutes ago, Sarex said:

I did see there is a movie and something else. Should I watch the special now or leave it for after?

That's something that is hard to answer. The anime itself has the first six episodes as a really slow setup, adding the first OVA - the one with 35 minutes runtime -  that was made after the anime itself to that extends it to seven episodes.

It bridges the time skip between episodes 4 and 5, has some really nice imagery and gives Violet's coworkers something to do, including collaborating with her.

It's not necessary to put it into the timeline where it belongs, but it really fits neatly into there.

The 90 minute special is split in two parts, one that happens between 6 and 7, and one that happens after episode 13, but that you really best leave for after the anime because splitting it up makes it narratively awkward. 

There's also a 2 hour and 20 minutes movie afterwards, but that was just recently released (and I hated the ending).

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

47 minutes ago, Sarex said:

I did see there is a movie and something else. Should I watch the special now or leave it for after?

I'd watch it now, it feels just like a slightly longer episode and fits with what happens in episode 5. It stands well enough on its own though so if you don't quite get it where it chronologically occurs it's still a good watch.

14 minutes ago, majestic said:

There's also a 2 hour and 20 minutes movie afterwards, but that was just recently released (and I hated the ending)

Joesph and the Empress at the hospital.

[majestic]

1 minute ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Joesph and the Empress at the hospital.

 

Spoiler

It only just sank the submarine for me, so I don't entirely get that yet.

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 minute ago, majestic said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

It only just sank the submarine for me, so I don't entirely get that yet.

 

That's the High Priestess, the Empress was the stand of Hol Horse's ex-girlfriend.

YES I AM!

[Bartimaeus]

Five more episodes of Eriko. Stuff and things happened, and now...

Spoiler

...Eriko's uncle is devising a plan to murder her on live television during a concert performance as a result of an apparent stage "accident" after she put her trust in him while doing him a favor he literally begged her for. This guy is a full-on psychopath. Literally all she does is try to make things easier for everyone around her while trying not to complain, and she gets repaid with hatred constantly. If Eriko has one major flaw, it's the fact that's too people-pleasing, trusting, and just kind of dumb (which IIRC she actually realized herself out-loud a few episodes ago, but realizing it isn't helping her make better decisions any, )...but it works for her character.

P.S. 80s/early 90s anime in real HD is always *chef's kiss*. Such a shame Sailor Moon's original materials were lost, .

Edited July 29, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[majestic]

3 hours ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Episode 7 tho, what a kick in the feels.

It is, isn't it?

Spoiler

The story of the playwright who lost his entire familiy and deals with it by writing a play would be sad enough, but then this ends with the double whammy of Violet finally realizing what DIO meant with her having scars (well, burns - not sure if that is a Japanese culture thing or not) and running into the Evergardens telling her that Gilbert has been declared missing in action and is presumed to have died.

I must live with the sin. Indeed, kingslayer. Violet must too, although she never really had a choice, did she?

Two second spoiler, animated gif clip from the next episode:

Spoiler

You already know it happened, but seeing Violet's world destroyed in an instant of not paying attention still hits hard.  

 

Episodes 8 and 9 are a two parter, you might want to watch them back to back.

 

[majestic]

6 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Five more episodes of Eriko. Stuff and things happened, and now...

  Hide contents

...Eriko's uncle is devising a plan to murder her on live television during a concert performance as a result of an apparent stage "accident" after she put her trust in him while doing him a favor he literally begged her for. This guy is a full-on psychopath. Literally all she does is try to make things easier for everyone around her while trying not to complain, and she gets repaid with hatred constantly. If Eriko has one major flaw, it's the fact that's too people-pleasing, trusting, and just kind of dumb (which IIRC she actually realized herself out-loud a few episodes ago, but realizing it isn't helping her make better decisions any, )...but it works for her character.

P.S. 80s/early 90s anime in real HD is always *chef's kiss*. Such a shame Sailor Moon's original materials were lost, .

So how's that working out for you on your quest for something lighthearted and fun?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

41 minutes ago, majestic said:

It is, isn't it?

  Hide contents

The story of the playwright who lost his entire familiy and deals with it by writing a play would be sad enough, but then this ends with the double whammy of Violet finally realizing what DIO meant with her having scars (well, burns - not sure if that is a Japanese culture thing or not) and running into the Evergardens telling her that Gilbert has been declared missing in action and is presumed to have died.

I must live with the sin. Indeed, kingslayer. Violet must too, although she never really had a choice, did she?

Two second spoiler, animated gif clip from the next episode:

  Hide contents

 

 

 

You already know it happened, but seeing Violet's world destroyed in an instant of not paying attention still hits hard.  

 

Episodes 8 and 9 are a two parter, you might want to watch them back to back.

 

Oh yeah. 

The flashbacks where he brought his sick daughter back to the lake she loved as a younger kid was ****ing heartbreaking. While I've liked the previous one off characters, this is the first one I've really felt sorry for.

The major being dead was unsurprising to me, but what I've got so far from Violet is that in addition to being alienated from normal humans she's ignorant or in denial about what was going on there. I guess part of her becoming human is inheriting the pain that comes with regret and loss. I guess DIO is lucky she can't METAL SILVER OVERDRIVE him, because she is not happy with him hiding the truth.

[majestic]

48 minutes ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Spoiler

The flashbacks where he brought his sick daughter back to the lake she loved as a younger kid was ****ing heartbreaking. While I've liked the previous one off characters, this is the first one I've really felt sorry for.

 

 

Spoiler

Strange how that works, you spend watching long series never really caring for any of the characters, and Kyoto Animation goes and makes a 25 minute episode where you geniuinely feel sorry for the characters involved, and they're on screen for maybe 20 minutes, and they're almost always a perfect reflection for Violet's damaged humanity.

It's not just sorry. The other episodes weren't really sad and had a hopeful undertone after all. Leon finding purpose in his life, or Luculia's brother getting his act together was pretty great to see.

The... yeah, the princess story with finding true love in an arranged marriage was a little hackneyed, but it also came with her losing her mother-figure, so that evens it out a little.

Have to admit I also really like these little interactions between Cattleya and Benedict. He tries to give every girl at work his noodle but her, and she's the only one who wants it.

Noodles. I mean, his food. Really!

 

48 minutes ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Spoiler

The major being dead was unsurprising to me, but what I've got so far from Violet is that in addition to being alienated from normal humans she's ignorant or in denial about what was going on there. I guess part of her becoming human is inheriting the pain that comes with regret and loss. I guess DIO is lucky she can't METAL SILVER OVERDRIVE him, because she is not happy with him hiding the truth.

 

 

Spoiler

The upcoming episodes deal with the fallout of what happened, including that stupid oaf Dietfried berating her for writing letters with "the hands that killed so many" - although that's literally not true. There's a certian beauty in the idea that she has new mechanical arms now. They're such a great allegory. Everything she lost, but also a new beginnig. She never killed anyone with the hands she now has, after all.

They'll also be a constant reminder of her past, something that will stay with her.

That the major's dead is pretty much known right from the start. Violet might not be able to read body language, but we are. DIO's reactions to her question make it clear enough that he's sugarcoating something. But yes, she's pretty much in denial at this point. She's clinging on to the only good thing in her past, and understandably so.

Violet wouldn't really need Hamon to waste Hodgins if she wanted to, but yeah... the more I hear DIO do other stuff the less it bothers me, and Utena was pretty helpful, if nothing else. Jotaro and Dio are constantly talking to each other in that one.

 

edit: I can't fully decide if it's episode 6 or 12 that I liked the least. They're both not bad and have their place, but they're... kinda next to better episodes. Eh.

Edited July 29, 2021 by majestic

[Sarex]

I'm on episode 10, I did watch the special between episode 4 and 5. So far so great, it really is an emotional roller coaster of a series, but nothing can ever hurt me like Clannad did.

[Bartimaeus]

Needed something a little lighthearted to watch to take a break from my lighthearted anime, so I watched Vampire Princess Miyu (1988).

Turns out, something that looked like this wasn't very lighthearted either. Who could've guessed?

Spoiler

Weird little 4 episode show. Liked the protagonist, her story and accursed life were a little sad, but the show ironically did not focus enough on her IMO until the very end (initially, she was treated as though she were the antagonist before she started becoming more sympathetic, culminating in clearly becoming the protagonist in the final episode). Really liked the sound design of this - all the weird little sounds made it feel oddly post-apocalyptic, almost Stalker-ish if that makes any sense. Miyu herself has little oddball and extremely distinct sounds associated with her for certain actions she takes, like whenever she apparates or disapparates, that were very nice touches. ...Yeah, real weird show. Also, not fan service-y in even the slightest, which actually surprised me a little - it is from the late 80s, but just from the way it looked, I didn't really expect that.

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[Sarex]

On to the second special and then debating if I want to watch the movie as the audio is not great.

[majestic]

29 minutes ago, Sarex said:

On to the second special and then debating if I want to watch the movie as the audio is not great.

Do you mean the one with the Russian dub? Because that really is god awful.