SC Tank

[Andres Arigon]

(turn-base) Apart from the Fighter there is an alternative way to play as a SC tank? I was thinking about Range.. but it seems 2self-buff and then auto attacks. Also, I was checking the Wiz as a main tank but.. it is just buff + buff X 100 and auto attack as well. Any recommendation? I was thinking about Paladin

[mjo2138]

Yes, you can play using a variety of multiclasses. Choose subclasses, if you want, that boost skills you'd like. Anything with fighter in it will be good for the front line. A fighter/paladin will give you insane defensive stats, healing, support, and ability to do some damage, too. 

 

Paladin/chanter is a really good front line class, too. With their healing ability ,summons, and defensive skills, they are hard to hurt. They, however, lack some skills to deal with many engagements. That being said, playing in POTD upscaled (all), I never had a problem with Pallegina as my main tank. 

[The Berathian]

You can make stupidly tanky paladin / priests, but they take a while to gain potency. A paladin / chanter is functional at level 1. Paladin / wizard is another tanky combo, and then there my favourite, the paladin / druid, which can become a bulwark of defensive healing that nothing in the game can bring down. 

[Boeroer]

Wasn't OP asking for single classes specifically or what does "SC Tank" mean?

In that case (?) - and if we talk about relatively reliable tanking from level 1 on - I would say that Fighter or Paladin are the way to go. With a bit of effort also Trickster and Wizard right from the start. Stalker might work, too (if you are using the Animal Companion effectively).

Even an Ancient can be used for tanking quite effectively. The Sporlings are pretty good in the early levels. One tier higher you can then use Wild Growth to give them +2 AR and endless regeneration. At the highest levels they gain very good health and a very long duration. With Wild Growth they can tank for a whole (normal) encounter. And of course by then you will have multiple other summons which can tank for you.

Chanter also has summons which can tank a bit. The early ones are flimsy but you can recast as often as you like. The later ones can be very tanky. The Dragon is one of the tankiest summons because of its immense health pool. If you have a Chanter and an Ancient in the party you can cast Wild Growth on the Dragon... 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Boeroer

[Andres Arigon]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

Stalker might work, too (if you are using the Animal Companion effectively).

Hi

 What do you mean with use the animal effectively? close to me?

I have already tried Wiz SC but it is very passive gameplay.. just some buffs and that it. I am playing right night with a range and see... but my pet dies almost all time   haha.

[Boeroer]

Well "tanking" isn't the most exciting job in the party in the first place. I don't exactly know what you expected.

Also if a Wizard's gameplay seems boring to you I don't know if there's any other class that would feel less boring. Wizards are all about micromanagement and squeezing the most out of their (mostly awesome) spells. Maybe you got that feeling at lower levels though where spell uses are quite scarce. 

If you have problems with a Stalker tank's Animal Companion dying too much you are most likely not using it effectively. Instead of sending it in first in order to take the heat from you you should go in first. Use fat armor and shield. If you take the Bear + Resilient Companion you will have a high AR, very sturdy flanker which can help you to deal good damage (combined with your own damage which wouldn't be too good because you are slow and have a shield). If you take the Boar the AR is a bit less but he'll have constant health regeneration - the Boar does rel. low dmg though. If you have a Wolf you get the most dmg per attack but he's less sturdy than Bear or Boar. My pick would the Bear if I fear knockouts of my animal companion but still want it to do some dmg. 

You need to keep your animal companions near as a Stalker. That way you both get +1 AR (which is a very important bonus for tanking) and +5 defense (which is also good). So always act as a tag team, don't separate. That shouldn't be too hard as a tank since you won't move a lot. 

I would try to get Stalker's Patience asap so I could unlock the AC's Predator's Sense later at all times. Spears also give you more engagement. The shield, too. Which is also good to have a a tank. With Stalker's Link your pet will also have more engagement, so together you can bind more enemies. Before getting Stalker's Patience you can use a battle axe + Blessing Cuts modal to unlock Predator's Sense.

You will still need to have some healing in your party for the Ranger himself - or use some regeneration gear. The pet can be healed by the Ranger. 

The good thing about a Stalker tank is that his defensive bonuses can't get dispelled by Arcane Dampener etc. They are all passive. The disadvantage is that he cannot achieve very high defenses. But in combination with good AR and two bodies it still works.

Generally speaking multiclasses can achieve better tanking than single classes because there will be more defensive synergies. 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Boeroer

[Andres Arigon]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Also if a Wizard's gameplay seems boring to you I don't know if there's any other class that would fell less boring. Wizards are all about micromanagement and squeezing the most out of their (mostly awesome) spells. Maybe you got that feeling at lower levels though where spell uses are quite scarce. 

Could you give me a good example how the WIZ tank works apart from buff him/her self? Wiz tank (sc) was my first choose 

Also how the aggro in this game works? Heavy armor + bigger deflect = more chance the enemies focus on you?

[Boeroer]

16 minutes ago, Andres Arigon said:

Also how the aggro in this game works? Heavy armor + bigger deflect = more chance the enemies focus on you?

No, it's the other way round. Generally speaking low defenses, low health and low AR makes enemies target you more often. That's why enemies like to run past your frontline (it it has no engagement) and attack your glasscannons. The most effectve way to make sure that the tank is attacked is initiating combat with the tank and let only him unstealth. Then wait until most enemies gathered around him. During that time you can still use buffs or call summons - because that won't break the stealth of your party members (only attacking does). When most enemies have decided to attack your tank you can attack with the other party members. Engagement of the tank prevents enemies from just leaving him in order to attack your backline.

20 minutes ago, Andres Arigon said:

Could you give me a good example how the WIZ tank works apart from buff him/her self? Wiz tank (sc) was my first choose 

 There's no secret. You buff up and then either attack with a weapon or cast some spells. For example:

1. Infuse with Vital Essence
2. Spirit Shield
3. Mirrored Images
4. Lllengrath's Safeguard
5. cast damaging stuff

If you are a Bloodmage you could use Concelhaut's Corrosive Siphon a lot. Or Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff or Concelhaut's Draining Touch + shield in melee.

You could also use a Pale Elf, Magran's Blessing and cast Fire Shield and after buffing cast Chillfog around yourself. With high fortitude and item that gives you resistance against Perception the Chillfog will not really harm you but be very effective against enemies around you.

Or you get Rekvu's Fractured Casque and give yourself an injury (out of combat, cast Necrotic Lance on yourself until you go down: minor injury). That will make you immune to all interrupts. Now you can not only use the Grimoire of Vaporous Wizardry without any drawback but also cast Slicken on yourself. All enemies around you will get interrupted all the time while you are completely immune. If you also wear the Upright Captain's Belt you will be immune to push/pull effects as well - so your can also cast Pull of Eora onto yourself (and the enemies around you). You will mess them up pretty badly. Combine this with an item that gives you resistance to DEX afflictions and you can also cast Binding Web onto yourself. The combo Slicken+Pull+Binding Web is quite devastating for the plans of many enemies. Most of times they will just tumble around wihtout being able to move or do anything remotely effective. Then you can follow up with damaging spells if you wish.

If you also wear Rekvu's Scorched Cloak you will heal from fire damage: just drop Fireballs onto your head and stand in your own Wall of Flames. They will heal you but damage your enemies. 

Plenty of fun options imo.   

[The Berathian]

5 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

No, it's the other way round. Generally speaking low defenses, low health and low AR makes enemies target you more often. That's why enemies like to run past your frontline (it it has no engagement) and attack your glasscannons. The most effectve way to make sure that the tank is attacked is initiating combat with the tank and let only him unstealth. Then wait until most enemies gathered around him. During that time you can still use buffs or call summons - because that won't break the stealth of your party members (only attacking does). When most enemies have decided to attack your tank you can attack with the other party members. Engagement of the tank prevents enemies from just leaving him in order to attack your backline.

 There's no secret. You buff up and then either attack with a weapon or cast some spells. For example:

1. Infuse with Vital Essence
2. Spirit Shield
3. Mirrored Images
4. Lllengrath's Safeguard
5. cast damaging stuff

If you are a Bloodmage you could use Concelhaut's Corrosive Siphon a lot. Or Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff or Concelhaut's Draining Touch + shield in melee.

You could also use a Pale Elf, Magran's Blessing and cast Fire Shield and after buffing cast Chillfog around yourself. With high fortitude and item that gives you resistance against Perception the Chillfog will not really harm you but be very effective against enemies around you.

Or you get Rekvu's Fractured Casque and give yourself an injury (out of combat, cast Necrotic Lance on yourself until you go down: minor injury). That will make you immune to all interrupts. Now you can not only use the Grimoire of Vaporous Wizardry without any drawback but also cast Slicken on yourself. All enemies around you will get interrupted all the time while you are completely immune. If you also wear the Upright Captain's Belt you will be immune to push/pull effects as well - so your can also cast Pull of Eora onto yourself (and the enemies around you). You will mess them up pretty badly. Combine this with an item that gives you resistance to DEX afflictions and you can also cast Binding Web onto yourself. The combo Slicken+Pull+Binding Web is quite devastating for the plans of many enemies. Most of times they will just tumble around wihtout being able to move or do anything remotely effective. Then you can follow up with damaging spells if you wish.

If you also wear Rekvu's Scorched Cloak you will heal from fire damage: just drop Fireballs onto your head and stand in your own Wall of Flames. They will heal you but damage your enemies. 

Plenty of fun options imo.   

I'd like to add to this that if you mix cipher with wizard and then go bananas with these shenanigans, you can do some really ridiculous stuff. 

[Andres Arigon]

13 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

If you are a Bloodmage

Thank you very much for share your knowldage. I am going to give my mage a second tried. 

Is Bloodmage better option than Enchanter?

[Boeroer]

3 minutes ago, Andres Arigon said:

Is Bloodmage better option than Enchanter?

For me personally: yes, always.

[Boeroer]

10 minutes ago, The Berathian said:

I'd like to add to this that if you mix cipher with wizard and then go bananas with these shenanigans, you can do some really ridiculous stuff. 

Such as?

[The Berathian]

9 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Such as?

Every conceivable debuff a well-made beguiler can do. Tearing down defenses with Borrowed Instinct. Stripping armor with Body Attunement. Washing away concentration with echoing shield. If you hit an enemy with every debuff the cipher has, you take all their stats down to single digits. (Str, con, dex, per, int, res) and this in turns leaves them vulnerable to all manner of foul abuses. Like spamming amplified wave. Which is super-effective because of the reduction in fortitude due to any number of debuffs that hurt con. 

A beguiler does more than just cripple enemies. It sort of acts like a force multiplier for other afflictions and ailments. Once you strip away everything an enemy has, they become far more vulnerable to everything that you wish to do them. 

And if you combine a beguiler with a wizard, you can render even the most dangerous enemies impotent and unable to harm you. Takes a while to come online, but once it does, the payoff is satisfying. 

[thelee]

8 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Even an Ancient can be used for tanking quite effectively. The Sporlings are pretty good in the early levels.

a big, big, big caveat is that on its own the sporelings won't have any engagement. it will be a rather common problem is that some enemies will wisely just move away from the sporelings to your squishier folks. with two, in hallways, you can block off baddies, but in open fights the lack of engagement can be problematic if you're leaning on sporelings to soak up damage for you. chanters have the benefit that they can get a chant to grant engagement to everyone, including summons.

 

49 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Engagement of the tank prevents enemies from just leaving him in order to attack your backline.

i will add that in the "Aggro" sense, engagement basically functions like a "taunt." once an enemy is engaged by someone, they pretty much stop in their tracks and attack whomever is engaging them. having lots of engagement can be useful in this regard, though there are steeply diminishing returns since past a certain point you can't squeeze any more enemies around you.

some enemy AI will purposefully disengage and eat the disengagement attack if a juicier target shows up. Many rogues (and rogue-types) and--oddly--fampyrs tend to this.

[The Berathian]

2 minutes ago, thelee said:

a big, big, big caveat is that on its own the sporelings won't have any engagement. it will be a rather common problem is that some enemies will wisely just move away from the sporelings to your squishier folks. with two, in hallways, you can block off baddies, but in open fights the lack of engagement can be problematic if you're leaning on sporelings to soak up damage for you. chanters have the benefit that they can get a chant to grant engagement to everyone, including summons.

 

i will add that in the "Aggro" sense, engagement basically functions like a "taunt." once an enemy is engaged by someone, they pretty much stop in their tracks and attack whomever is engaging them. having lots of engagement can be useful in this regard, though there are steeply diminishing returns since past a certain point you can't squeeze any more enemies around you.

some enemy AI will purposefully disengage and eat the disengagement attack if a juicier target shows up. Many rogues (and rogue-types) and--oddly--fampyrs tend to this.

And this is the reason why I love skeletons. Lots of skeletons. A moving wall of bones that trigger engagement. 

[Andres Arigon]

I guess for a Wiz tank (turn-base) I should go CON (max) > INT (max) > RES = DEX (just to go first before the enemies) = MIG

[thelee]

25 minutes ago, Andres Arigon said:

I guess for a Wiz tank (turn-base) I should go CON (max) > INT (max) > RES = DEX (just to go first before the enemies) = MIG

You get Infuse with Vital Essence at tier two, and it lasts a long time and I believe is a free action.

For that reason, you might rather do INT (max) > RES > CON = DEX (resolve has increasing returns from a defensive standpoint). I would still pick up Tough later on.

[Andres Arigon]

I always have doubt with CON and RES..

On some posts people say.. Reduce your RES and put its point in CON because RES is a sh1t attribut. Because is better to have a big HP pool than extra def.

What I usually do is..

Range (mages, hunters etc...) = Res 3  and use its points in CON

Mid Range Con 13 > Res 6

Front Line Con max > Res 10

Tank Con max and Res Ma

Edited May 3, 2021 by Andres Arigon

[Haplok]

Particularly on a Bloodmage max Con is very nice to have.

[Andres Arigon]

Quick question.. it is any spell or way get enemies Engagement ??

[thelee]

1 hour ago, Andres Arigon said:

I always have doubt with CON and RES..

On some posts people say.. Reduce your RES and put its point in CON because RES is a sh1t attribut. Because is better to have a big HP pool than extra def.

sorry, i forgot that you were picking bloodmage, which makes CON more important. (thanks Haplok)

 

RES is a weird stat because it's mostly not great. BUT, if we're talking tanks, RES becomes absolutist-ly important for the same reason that RES is not recommended most of the time: it's increasing returns. This means that when you're behind the defense curve, it doesn't do too much to dig you out of the hole you're in. However, if you are ahead or getting further ahead of the defense curve, each additional point of deflection (provided by RES) becomes even more important than the previous. [In an extreme case, the difference between one point of resolve is literally infinite survivability]

A wizard tank has lots of ways to boost deflection to skyhigh levels (arcane veil, wizard's double, also plus shield if needed) which makes the case for RES to be much more important. Plus, the biggest liability for a wizard tank is Arcane Dampener from enemies and having a sky-high will defense will protect you from that, which you'll get with a max INT and a max RES (plus the bull's will passive).

[Andres Arigon]

It makes sense

I;ve just created a Blood Mage.. let's see! 

(Turn Base)

Might: 9
Con: 19
Dex:10
Pre:8
Int: 18
Res:15

2 minutes ago, thelee said:

sorry, i forgot that you were picking bloodmage, which makes CON more important. (thanks Haplok)

 

RES is a weird stat because it's mostly not great. BUT, if we're talking tanks, RES becomes absolutist-ly important for the same reason that RES is not recommended most of the time: it's increasing returns. This means that when you're behind the defense curve, it doesn't do too much to dig you out of the hole you're in. However, if you are ahead or getting further ahead of the defense curve, each additional point of deflection (provided by RES) becomes even more important than the previous. [In an extreme case, the difference between one point of resolve is literally infinite survivability]

A wizard tank has lots of ways to boost deflection to skyhigh levels (arcane veil, wizard's double, also plus shield if needed) which makes the case for RES to be much more important. Plus, the biggest liability for a wizard tank is Arcane Dampener from enemies and having a sky-high will defense will protect you from that, which you'll get with a max INT and a max RES (plus the bull's will passive).

 

[The Berathian]

5 minutes ago, Andres Arigon said:

It makes sense

I;ve just created a Blood Mage.. let's see! 

(Turn Base)

Might: 9
Con: 19
Dex:10
Pre:8
Int: 18
Res:15

Just an opinion, but these stats aren't as helpful as one might think on first glance. Con and int both are easy to raise as a wizard. (Fit, smart) While they are nice to have, you can drop them both to 15 and get just about as much use out of them. Which allows you to raise might, which increases the regen of your blood mage. Perception is still important for a wizard tank, so ten should be the minimum. 11 is better, because with a +5 inspiration, you hit 16, which is a sweet spot. You get a lot of return for 16. This is true for all stats. 11 and 15 are always good numbers to shoot for. With the right stat boosting inspirations, these become 16s and 20s. Which are more than enough to get you where you are going. 

[Boeroer]

25 minutes ago, The Berathian said:

Which allows you to raise might, which increases the regen of your blood mage.

Also increases the amount of self damage Blood Sacrifice will do. For a Bloodmage I often don't raise it above 12 or 13. 
 

 

38 minutes ago, Andres Arigon said:

Might: 9
Con: 19
Dex:10
Pre:8
Int: 18
Res:15

You really don't need 19 CON. If you ask me, CON is the least important stat of all (generally speaking, there are exceptions of course). For a Bloodmage it's good to have a bit more because of Blood Sacrifice - but I wouldn't raise it to 19 in any case. Something like 15 would be enough for me. Especially because you can gain +5 from Infuse with Vital Essence as was already said.  

PER 8 is quite low. Maybe you need that much PER if you don't plan to cast a lot of offensive spells. But still: 8 would be too low for my taste.

For a Wizard "tank" I would pump RES. INT is good to have high, too. As @theleesaid: you want to shrug off Arcane Dampener. Because if not your tanking will be over quickly (without any buffs).

[Andres Arigon]

20 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Also increases the amount of self damage Blood Sacrifice will do. For a Bloodmage I often don't raise it above 12 or 13. 
 

 

You really don't need 19 CON. If you ask me, CON is the least important stat of all (generally speaking, there are exceptions of course). For a Bloodmage it's good to have a bit more because of Blood Sacrifice - but I wouldn't raise it to 19 in any case. Something like 15 would be enough for me. Especially because you can gain +5 from Infuse with Vital Essence as was already said.  

PER 8 is quite low. Maybe you need that much PER if you don't plan to cast a lot of offensive spells. But still: 8 would be too low for my taste.

For a Wizard "tank" I would pump RES. INT is good to have high, too. As @theleesaid: you want to shrug off Arcane Dampener. Because if not your tanking will be over quickly (without any buffs).

Yeah that make sense.

Something like that make more sense?

Might: 18
Con: 15
Dex: 8
Pre: 12
Int: 15
Res: 10

What should I drop to put more point in Res (turn based)