Anime - coasting on emotion rollers

[majestic]

8 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Glad I don't know German and can't tell then! Also, what did you think of Asuka's VA in general in that clip? I remember the first time I heard her, and I was like "whoa, she sounds SUPER strange for what's supposed to be a teen girl, and I'm not sure that I like it or will be able to get used to it"...and then a few episodes later I couldn't imagine her sounding anything EXCEPT like this VA. Don't know how that happened.

The VA was weird after getting used to the Japanese voices by now, but it's okay-ish. I just clicked a bit through the Sailor Says! Channel and dear god, Usagi sounds like a 60 year old woman.

But yes, she doesn't really sound like a 14 year old girl. Shinji does, more so, huh? Literally in the Japanese version, what with the voice of Haruka... heh.

@LadyCrimson Maybe the Professor will convince you? Hmm?

Or maybe not. It's also kind of a fake out because that guy won't show up until you're like 90 episodes in. Hmm.

Not helping, am I?

Edited April 23, 2021 by majestic

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

15 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Don't know how that happened, and wondering if she sounds very strange to you (or KP) as well.

The original dub? I haven't seen it in over a decade, let me check real quick. I'm used to the sub and in the original dub Asuka sounds more like a grown woman than a teenager to me. I'd have to listen to more but it'd probably take a bit getting used to.

[Bartimaeus]

1 minute ago, majestic said:

The VA was weird after getting used to the Japanese voices by now, but it's okay-ish.

Well, my initial reaction to her was worse than that, so that's fair. Some voices must just take some time to get used to, I guess...

2 minutes ago, majestic said:

I just clicked a bit through the Sailor Says! Channel and dear god, Usagi sounds like a 60 year old woman.

Oh yeah, that's the season 3 and beyond voice. IIRC, there's a season 1 VA that is properly young-sounding but also kind of airy and idyllic (almost to the point of sounding like she's sleepwalking through some of her lines) who was then fired and replaced halfway through that season (because apparently she was putting the entire schedule behind with too many takes). The second VA is Terri Hawkes, who is widely considered to be the best, but she only played Sailor Moon up until the end of R. S and SuperS...you get Linda Ballantyne, who ironically was actually the youngest of all three VAs, but sounded like a complete meme of a middle-aged woman. Whenever clips of S and SuperS are posted on the Sailor Moon Says channel, people are always in shock with how Usagi sounds, .

[majestic]

44 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

you get Linda Ballantyne, who ironically was actually the youngest of all three VAs, but sounded like a complete meme of a middle-aged woman.

Just looked it up, she was in her early 30ies. Not bad.

Usagi had two different VAs in the German dub. The first season was the same woman that does Lisa Simpson in the German dub, which is really distracting while watching Sailor Moon. Her replacement also sounds like Usagi's age (or should I say Bunny in this case?), a bit softer and less shrill, which was a nice change. First season Usagi also had a little too much of a... uhm, German accent*. I mean, not much, and there are far worse examples (mostly in regular actors though, not in voice actors), but it's there.

Pluto had three different VAs (one of which went on to voice Seiya).

Ikuko takes the cake though. Five different VAs (three "regular" ones and two that voiced one episode each - not that Ikuko showed up much after R).

*Without context that's probably a little strange, right?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

4 minutes ago, majestic said:

Just looked it up, she was in her early 30ies. Not bad.

Too old for Pegasus.

[majestic]

4 minutes ago, ArtistFormerlyKnownasKP said:

Too old for Pegasus.

 

True, but we're also kind of trying to convince LC to watch, so psssht!

Edited April 24, 2021 by majestic

[LadyCrimson]

In fairness to Sailor Moon, I barely have the attention span these days to finish 10 one hour episode seasons, let alone maybe 80-100 hours (?) of episodes. 

I might've liked it ok if I'd watched it directly after Slayers - but typically I like higher action/thriller (Noblesse style, early Bleach, OnePunch) or somewhat supernatural/human drama (Hikaru no Go, Mushishi, can't think of a more recent example at the moment). 

[Bartimaeus]

Does anyone have any thoughts/feelings towards either Future Boy Conan (1978) or Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water (1990)? My show-watching partner wants to watch one or both of two of these sometime in the future (after we've finished up Speed Racer and Sailor Moon*), but we don't know anything about either except that they look good (well, Nadia's strange clash of character designs notwithstanding).

*No, I didn't forget about Madoka Magica.

Edited April 24, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[majestic]

1 hour ago, LadyCrimson said:

In fairness to Sailor Moon

1 hour ago, LadyCrimson said:

I barely have the attention span these days to finish 10 one hour episode seasons

2 hours ago, LadyCrimson said:

let alone maybe 80-100 hours (?) of episodes. 

But it's only like 60 hours (200 episodes á 24 minutes, net runtime between 18 and 20 minutes). Less if you skip all the stock footage.

2 hours ago, LadyCrimson said:

I might've liked it ok if I'd watched it directly after Slayers - but typically I like higher action/thriller (Noblesse style, early Bleach, OnePunch) or somewhat supernatural/human drama (Hikaru no Go, Mushishi, can't think of a more recent example at the moment). 

No, seriously, that's fair, in that case you'd probably really wouldn't enjoy it. The best parts of Sailor Moon are (in)arguably the slice of life parts where you just follow five funny teenage girls doing... a whole bunch of silly things, and sometimes they study, get turned into giant tennis balls, deal with children that (literally) fall from the sky and when they're not busy with anything else they save the world. Heh.

Spoiler

Then there's a season where everyone of them is sexually assaulted by an anthropomorphized tiger and Usagi's daughter is groomed by an ageless pedophile alicorn, but we're not talking about that. Bad seaon is bad!

 

Sounds like Puella Magi Madoka Magica could be more your thing, that's technically the same genre as Sailor Moon, just a completely different take - and it's short (12 20 minutes episodes or two 2h runtime films, depending on what you can stream or want to watch - films look better, but are the same thing).

Whelp, we tried. Looks like the Sailor Moon club really is coming to an end.

18 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Does anyone have any thoughts/feelings towards either Future Boy Conan (1978) or Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water (1990)? My show-watching partner wants to watch one or both of two of these sometime in the future, but we don't know anything about either except that they look good (well, Nadia's strange clash of character designs notwithstanding).

Sorry, can't help with that. Future Boy Conan looks like something I could easily have liked, but it never got a German dub, so it's really missing from my "seen in childhood" list of anime (that interestingly enough is really full of Takahata's work, but a lot less Miyazaki for some reason - guess not depressing enough for children? ).

Nadia was on TV, but at a time when I was still watching Attack No. 1, so, yeah. Might be a good idea to put them both on the "to watch" list.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I finished season 2 of SU without realizing it and then went into s3.

I left off at the episode where Steven is trying to get a fresh donut.

[Bartimaeus]

The way S2 ends is really odd. In the original airings, you had to wait 5 months to get those two episodes that actually properly ended the season. Doesn't seem like the best planning to me, .

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

16 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

The way S2 ends is really odd. In the original airings, you had to wait 5 months to get those two episodes that actually properly ended the season. Doesn't seem like the best planning to me, .

Yeah, so much I didn't notice it until a few episodes later and I saw S3. 

I've watched more. Last was Mr. Greg, which got Pearl dancing in a tux.

[Bartimaeus]

The way you boil down emotional cruxes of episodes is...interesting, to say the least, .

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 minute ago, Bartimaeus said:

The way you boil down emotional cruxes of episodes is...interesting, to say the least, .

I like to think it's a fun way of keeping it spoiler free.

[InsaneCommander]

11 hours ago, LadyCrimson said:

In fairness to Sailor Moon, I barely have the attention span these days to finish 10 one hour episode seasons, let alone maybe 80-100 hours (?) of episodes. 

I might've liked it ok if I'd watched it directly after Slayers - but typically I like higher action/thriller (Noblesse style, early Bleach, OnePunch) or somewhat supernatural/human drama (Hikaru no Go, Mushishi, can't think of a more recent example at the moment). 

Well, most of the seasons are the "episode of the week", so you only need to have an attention span for the last few story episodes.

[InsaneCommander]

9 hours ago, majestic said:

 

There is this one too.

[Bartimaeus]

The Sailor Moon Says channel just posted this:

And so, on the back of Serena and Darien's comments here, now seems like a better time than ever to bring this up. This may come as a shock to all of you, but...

Spoiler

Usagi and Mamoru...are not a good couple. There is simply something bad (multiple somethings, really) about the way these two have interacted with each other over the course of the show that you can kind of try to ignore or pretend isn't a problem, but which Sailor Stars brings front and center by way of introduction of Seiya. It's an age problem, it's a maturity problem, it's a dynamics problem, it's a dependency problem. Usagi is completely dependent on Mamoru in a variety of ways, but most importantly for their relationship, emotionally. Mamoru...could dump Usagi at just about literally any moment throughout R to SuperS and likely would not meaningfully miss her one bit, and in fact, would undoubtedly be better off for it. In contrast, Usagi enters a depression that manifests in both normal depressive episodes as well as lashing out at others (particularly Chibi-Usa) when it happens in R, and that's with plenty of signs that he still cares for her and wants to protect her...and that's after they haven't even been together for basically any time at all. The way Usagi is always trying to kiss and hug him while he mostly uncomfortably tries to ignore or redirect her is...totally understandable on his part, but really just adds to the issue. Their relationship, from pretty much top to bottom, is so incredibly unequal, and then you throw in the literal vast age and maturity differences between them...ay, caramba! This is just not a good relationship, destiny or not.

(e): Oh, yeah, I forgot where I was going with this with Seiya - in contrast, Seiya is not perfect either, but gosh dang does he work so much better than Mamoru ever did at any point throughout the entire show. Usagi is not completely dependent on Seiya in any of the ways she was Mamoru - there's a little to some, but so is he towards she: it's way more equal and less weird and more cute and charming. It also more naturally grows over the course of the season, as opposed to having always started off (and staying) completely unequal to begin with like it did in S1 between Usagi and Mamoru. The fact that they're much closer in age and maturity helps a lot too - unlike what Darien said in the above video, I do think this is actually important for making for a less weird and more sensible relationship.

 

Edited April 24, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[majestic]

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

The Sailor Moon Says channel just posted this:

And so, on the back of Serena and Darien's comments here, now seems like a better time than ever to bring this up. This may come as a shock to all of you, but...

  Hide contents

Usagi and Mamoru...are not a good couple. There is simply something bad (multiple somethings, really) about the way these two have interacted with each other over the course of the show that you can kind of try to ignore or pretend isn't a problem, but which Sailor Stars brings front and center by way of introduction of Seiya. It's an age problem, it's a maturity problem, it's a dynamics problem, it's a dependency problem. Usagi is completely dependent on Mamoru in a variety of ways, but most importantly for their relationship, emotionally. Mamoru...could dump Usagi at just about literally any moment throughout R to SuperS and likely would not meaningfully miss her one bit, and in fact, would undoubtedly be better off for it. In contrast, Usagi enters a depression that manifests in both normal depressive episodes as well as lashing out at others (particularly Chibi-Usa) when it happens in R, and that's with plenty of signs that he still cares for her and wants to protect her...and that's after they haven't even been together for basically any time at all. The way Usagi is always trying to kiss and hug him while he mostly uncomfortably tries to ignore or redirect her is...totally understandable on his part, but really just adds to the issue. Their relationship, from pretty much top to bottom, is so incredibly unequal, and then you throw in the literal vast age and maturity differences between them...ay, caramba! This is just not a good relationship, destiny or not.

(e): Oh, yeah, I forgot where I was going with this with Seiya - in contrast, Seiya is not perfect either, but gosh dang does he work so much better than Mamoru ever did at any point throughout the entire show. Usagi is not completely dependent on Seiya in any of the ways she was Mamoru - there's a little to some, but so is he towards she: it's way more equal and less weird and more cute and charming. It also more naturally grows over the course of the season, as opposed to having always started off (and staying) completely unequal to begin with like it did in S1 between Usagi and Mamoru. The fact that they're much closer in age and maturity helps a lot too - unlike what Darien said in the above video, I do think this is actually important for making for a less weird and more sensible relationship.

 

That's the clip I saw yesterday that made me comment on Usagi's voice in the DiC dub. Because it sure sounds like there's an age difference here, just between middle age Usagi and her teenage boytoy.
 

Spoiler

 

You're right.

I'll just quote myself from my first "Final thoughts on Sailor Moon Sailor Stars" post:

Quote

The biggest problem of this subplot is that Seiya and Usagi are clearly so much a better couple than Mamoru and Usagi ever were on screen.

Seiya's age is, I think, never given in the anime, but he's 16 like Usagi, kind of makes sense since they're in the same class, after all. It's easy to forget with their (mostly Taiki's and Yaten's) somber attitudes, but all of the Three Lights are just 16 and as mature or immature, as it were, as the other girls. Not that a certain shell-shocked somberness is inappropriate for a group of teenagers who have seen their entire world destroyed in a war against an incredibly powerful, nigh unstoppable force.

And this post does bring up a point: This is by far and large the fault of the writers of Sailor Moon S. Yes, single, lonesome S here, not SuperS. Sailor Moon S would have been the time to show that Usagi's unhealthy codependency on Mamoru is gone, or at least to show that their relationship is progressing out of it. Usagi in S is stable enough, a year older already and they just resolved the forced issues of R.

The writers of S pushed Mamoru away to point where he barely is in the show. SuperS brought him back but made everything worse by making everything bad and turning Usagi into a completely childish waste of screentime. It's not that there isn't a a precedence in the manga for that either, and I'm not talking about the age switch. Usagi and Chibi-Usa positively badger Mamoru into buying both of them a kid's toy kaleidoscope - the very thing Pegasus transforms into Sailor Moon's attack uhm, stick thingie.

In the SuperS movie Chibi-Usa has one too, that's because she also has her kaleidoscope turned into an attack rod thingie by Pegasus. This scene is a stark contrast to their interactions in the Infinity arc because Usagi and Chibi-Usa behave in exactly the same immature way.

That's pretty much the only thing Mamoru does in Dreams though - he falls ill early on and stays in bed. While the writers of S ignored what there was of Mamoru in the manga, they invented new things that weren't in SuperS.

However, there's one thing I need to point out. Mamoru being seen denying Usagi's attempts to hug and kiss him does have a different background. We once again need to go back to mid 90ies Japan for some cultural references. Usagi is either incredibly ignorant of Japanese social rules and customs, or she just doesn't care (it's Usagi, so it is probably both). Mamoru apparently does. Him not kissing her in public in the R movie for instance is because he's uncomfortable kissing Usagi in public (in R, in the park where Chibi-Usa falls on Usagi's head, nobody was around), not because he's uncomfortable kissing Usagi. That's also the reason why Ami blushes as much as she does, because not only is it rude to watch people kissing, they also shouldn't do that where others can see it in the first place.

Times change, of course, so that's a bit different nowadays, but you're still better off only holding hands in public.

This isn't to excuse the nature of their relationship as written in the anime. Do they ever show Mamoru alone with Usagi in his home (not counting Mamoru looking into mirrors in early Sailor Stars)? Probably not. Because that's where the really creepy things happen in the manga, and they left those out (good on them).

I don't neccesarily agree with the people who say Mamoru and Usagi have a healthier relationship in the manga because that's only true for Infinity. Usagi commits suicide (or at least tries to) over not being able to be with Mamoru in the first act and behaves like a jealous, immature and utterly unlikable child in the second. Mamoru douchewaffles Usagi away in the fourth because he's sick and tries to be the manly man so he doesn't see her being weak and ill (good grief Mamoru, what the hell?).

However, Naoko Takeuchi frames the creepy things in the manga in away that are supposed to show that Mamoru loves Usagi just as much as she does, and that they're both equals in their relationship. It doesn't come across as such because that's often so god damned creepy, but I'm almost certain that's supposed to be romantic, not problematic (like the intention behind Chibi-Usa and Pegasus, in both the manga and the anime), or like Bella and Cedric Cullen in Twilight: A Potter's tale. No, wait, something's wrong about that title.

Strange as that may sound, there's enough in the manga to give the manga the benefit of the doubt. The anime? Not so much. And that's before taking into account that the DiC dub just made it worse. Right, hurricane Serena?

 

Oh, and welcome to the Sailor Moon Essay Club. Here's your membership card, member #2. Shiny and gold, like Ami's. Heh.

Edited April 24, 2021 by majestic

[Bartimaeus]

Hey, two paragraphs is not an essay!

Thanks for the additional context: it helps...a little. I guess we can chalk it up to weirdities with the original manga and not being able to figure out how to adapt it on the fly in a way that really worked (particularly given that the manga material is simply...not very good). It also occurs to me that there's honestly not a whole lot of successful or healthy relationships going on in this show very much at all. Who's the best and least weird couple? ...I suppose as bizarre, inexplicable, and frustrating as they can be in regards to OTHER characters, it seems like it's gotta be Haruka and Michiru, right?

[majestic]

9 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Hey, two paragraphs is not an essay!

Thanks for the additional context: it helps...a little. I guess we can chalk it up to weirdities with the original manga and not being able to figure out how to adapt it on the fly in a way that really worked (particularly given that the manga material is simply...not very good). It also occurs to me that there's honestly not a whole lot of successful or healthy relationships going on in this show very much at all. Who's the best and least weird couple? ...I suppose as bizarre, inexplicable, and frustrating as they can be in regards to OTHER characters, it seems like it's gotta be Haruka and Michiru, right?

Two paragraphs might not be an essay, but it sure starts like that. You've already thought their relationship through and came to what we could call an abstract. All that's missing is... a more detailed explanation and some citations.

The only ones of the core cast that even have a relationship other than Mamoru and Usagi are Haruka and Michiru, and they clearly have a much better relationship than the former two, xenophobic as they are at times.

Secondary characters, well, there are Usagi's parents and Naru with her Umino. They seem to be happy, but they are barely around after R.

Rei with Mamoru was odd, and it always seemed Mamoru dated her because he had nothing else to do, not because he seemed to be very interested. For a while I thought Rei did that to annoy Usagi, but she seemed to have really cared, with her offering the temple for him to stay at after she ruined his room and being really annoyed at Usagi for her insinuating that she might try something (and also, like everything in this utter waste of a season, Diana goes and makes it SUPER CREEPY by offering to be Mamoru's chaperone, insinuating that she expects Rei to hop on top of him the moment they're alone).

That leaves a lot of other side characters that never went anywhere, like Yuichiro, Makoto's Kenji and Ryo. I'm not sure why Ryo was dropped*. He knew Ami was Sailor Mercury, they shared common interests and Ami never expressed anything more for someone else. Except fangirling after composers and the Three Lights.

I also just made the mistake of googling a bit for any other side characters I might have missed, and found a list of fan-shipped couples that could have been. I want to scour the Earth of people who think that any of the Inner Senshi in the anime are supposedly coded to be lesbian or have lesbian subtext (there is subtext in the manga for Rei and Minako). They don't and aren't guys, please stop that.

Chibi-Usa has two potential relationships, one of which I don't want to talk about, and the other is Hotaru, which requires way too much mind-bending to make it work.

I recently came up with an idea for one last examination post, and that's character arcs beyond Usagi. The short gist is that, if we allow the SuperS power up episodes to stand there while ignoring the rest of the season, we can reasonably conclude that almost everyone's arc is kind of closed... except Makoto and her senpai. It would have been really nice to give Makoto an episode in Sailor Stars where she finally frees herself of that. Sure it made for a fun running gag (and I answered one of my earlier questions if Makoto and Ami ever talked to each other alone - yes, they did, in early R when Makoto talks about how Ali/Ail could be the Moonlight Knight and Ami asks if he reminds her of her lost love. Makoto initially says no, but then says both love music, and Ami just falls over in embarrassment). So they do talk to each other, but they fail the Bechdel test in the process.

So yes, two actual couples in the core cast, two side couples that don't really show up after R, and lots of "what if?"s. For a show about five girls fighting for love and justice, that's not much, is it?

There is a non-canon manga side story where the daughters of Ami, Rei, Makoto and Minako try to befriend Usagi's second child. I'm going with that. Yep.

*I mean, in-universe. It's perfectly understandable why the writers dropped that.

[InsaneCommander]

Castlevania S3, episodes 7-10:
 

Spoiler

 

Hector is learning that you can never trust the bad guys. Maybe he should have been loyal to Dracula, the one exception? Even the good guys are bad, like Alucard learned...

It is funny that Lenore is actually giving him some measure of respect. All things considered, he could have ended up much worse. He gets his own section of the castle, so he is above the vampire soldiers. And she may not get much out of the "deal", since Isaac seems to have an entire army now.

And of course the character voiced by Jason Isaacs was evil. But why nobody talked about that many children disappearing?

Considering what the speaking devil told Isaac (that he went to hell because he was considered a sinner) and Lisa being there too, then it doesn't matter what people do, they will go to hell if they are considered sinners? That is messed up. They will end up just like South Park, with a few thousand people in Heaven and all the rest in hell.

 

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I don't have much to add about Mamo-chan and Usako's miracle romance.

Spoiler

All of what @Bartimaeus and @majestic has said rings true.  Something I kinda want to touch on is that it seems their romance is almost entirely based on who they were 1000 years ago and not that much on who they are when Sailor Moon takes place. For the first season they hate interacting with each other, and it's only after everyone gets their complete memories and identities revealed that they actually get together (only to break up right away because R can be really ****ing stupid). From then on it just feels like they're together because they're together (I hope this makes sense), Usagi and Mamoru don't really seem to have anything in common and Mamoru seems to really struggle to explain why he's with Usagi beyond stating that she's his Usako. Love ain't always logical or easily explained, but they could have done more to show the romance instead of just telling us that it is there.

Seiya on the other hand felt a lot more natural. He/she/they fell in love with Usagi because they got to know her over however long Stars is. It may have been fast, sometimes awkward, and more than a little because Usag is similar to the Starlight's Princess but it does feel a lot more real than the romance of fate that is Usagi and Mamoru's relationship. Like I can see Seiya explaining why he likes spending time with Usagi instead of just freezing up like Mamo-chan did before getting dream raped by Fish Eye.

 

51 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

Castlevania S3, episodes 7-10:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Hector is learning that you can never trust the bad guys. Maybe he should have been loyal to Dracula, the one exception? Even the good guys are bad, like Alucard learned...

It is funny that Lenore is actually giving him some measure of respect. All things considered, he could have ended up much worse. He gets his own section of the castle, so he is above the vampire soldiers. And she may not get much out of the "deal", since Isaac seems to have an entire army now.

And of course the character voiced by Jason Isaacs was evil. But why nobody talked about that many children disappearing?

Considering what the speaking devil told Isaac (that he went to hell because he was considered a sinner) and Lisa being there too, then it doesn't matter what people do, they will go to hell if they are considered sinners? That is messed up. They will end up just like South Park, with a few thousand people in Heaven and all the rest in hell.

 

 

3 weeks until the final season! What's next for you?

 

[Bartimaeus]

37 minutes ago, ArtistFormerlyKnownasKP said:

Something I kinda want to touch on is that it seems their romance is almost entirely based on who they were 1000 years ago and not that much on who they are when Sailor Moon takes place. For the first season they hate interacting with each other, and it's only after everyone gets their complete memories and identities revealed that they actually get together (only to break up right away because R can be really ****ing stupid). From then on it just feels like they're together because they're together (I hope this makes sense), Usagi and Mamoru don't really seem to have anything in common and Mamoru seems to really struggle to explain why he's with Usagi beyond stating that she's his Usako. Love ain't always logical or easily explained, but they could have done more to show the romance instead of just telling us that it is there.

Totally makes sense, and is something I actually vaguely had in mind myself, but I kind of lost myself halfway through that post because of interruptions. They feel like they're together because they have to be together because that's just the way it is. Except this is a highly character interactions/relations-driven show, so while that may fly for shows like Speed Racer where the two main characters are together with no explanation ever given or really needed because the show is stupid and simple, it doesn't work as well for Sailor Moon. So yeah, Usagi and Mamoru actually working together as a couple needed a lot more "show, don't tell" for it to be more convincing.

3 hours ago, majestic said:

Diana goes and makes it SUPER CREEPY by offering to be Mamoru's chaperone, insinuating that she expects Rei to hop on top of him the moment they're alone

Gosh, I forgot about that. Why, SuperS...why? Don't feed into Usagi's Mamoru psychosis!

3 hours ago, majestic said:

I also just made the mistake of googling a bit for any other side characters I might have missed, and found a list of fan-shipped couples that could have been. I want to scour the Earth of people who think that any of the Inner Senshi in the anime are supposedly coded to be lesbian or have lesbian subtext (there is subtext in the manga for Rei and Minako). They don't and aren't guys, please stop that.

See, this is why I asked you and saved my own sheltered mind and eyes, . I've already been traumatized by other Steven Universe fans enough, Sailor Moon trauma is your job!

3 hours ago, majestic said:

It would have been really nice to give Makoto an episode in Sailor Stars where she finally frees herself of that

No, I think the writers pretty clearly wanted Makoto to be sad for forever, so that just wouldn't fly I'm afraid!

Edited April 25, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[majestic]

9 hours ago, ArtistFormerlyKnownasKP said:

I don't have much to add about Mamo-chan and Usako's miracle romance.

  Hide contents

All of what @Bartimaeus and @majestic has said rings true.  Something I kinda want to touch on is that it seems their romance is almost entirely based on who they were 1000 years ago and not that much on who they are when Sailor Moon takes place. For the first season they hate interacting with each other, and it's only after everyone gets their complete memories and identities revealed that they actually get together (only to break up right away because R can be really ****ing stupid). From then on it just feels like they're together because they're together (I hope this makes sense), Usagi and Mamoru don't really seem to have anything in common and Mamoru seems to really struggle to explain why he's with Usagi beyond stating that she's his Usako. Love ain't always logical or easily explained, but they could have done more to show the romance instead of just telling us that it is there.

Seiya on the other hand felt a lot more natural. He/she/they fell in love with Usagi because they got to know her over however long Stars is. It may have been fast, sometimes awkward, and more than a little because Usag is similar to the Starlight's Princess but it does feel a lot more real than the romance of fate that is Usagi and Mamoru's relationship. Like I can see Seiya explaining why he likes spending time with Usagi instead of just freezing up like Mamo-chan did before getting dream raped by Fish Eye.

 

9 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Totally makes sense, and is something I actually vaguely had in mind myself, but I kind of lost myself halfway through that post because of interruptions. They feel like they're together because they have to be together because that's just the way it is. Except this is a highly character interactions/relations-driven show, so while that may fly for shows like Speed Racer where the two main characters are together with no explanation ever given or really needed because the show is stupid and simple, it doesn't work as well for Sailor Moon. So yeah, Usagi and Mamoru actually working together as a couple needed a lot more "show, don't tell" for it to be more convincing.

I'll address these both in one paragraph, makes it easier and more concise.

First of all, let me ask you a question, would you really have liked more focus on Mamoru and Usagi as a couple? Because that is what Crystal does, and you know how that ended. There's a possibility that the original anime writers could have made something out of it, something interesting, but in reality they were barely capable of juggling all the threads and giving all the characters something to do. It's the fundamental limitation of writing an ensemble cast show by the seat of your pants.

It's a bit clear that the anime writers dropped the ball on this one. While - and I've said that time and again, like a broken record - the source material isn't free of problems, it does make a few things a lot clearer. Mamoru isn't "mean" to Usagi in the way he is in the anime, not beyond their first meeting, after which he is just mysterious and calls her bun-head when they meet. Usagi is also immediately attracted to him.

Mamoru is too, and there are the problematic bits of this, while Usagi tells the reader that ("Why is my heart pounding?"), Mamoru gets to show his affection by being a complete creep. The thing here is, it is kind of excusable for an early 90ies work. The tropes used are still in play today, you just need to read any of the romantic young adult literature that's out there, or worse, adult "romantic" literature. Talking about these would be a book, not just a longer post, in itself. There are apparently still a lot of men and women who think that certain gestures are romantic instead of creepy as long as there's enough attraction between the people involved.

Now for the together because they were together. In the manga, the girls also get their memories of their former lifetime back. Presumably that happens in the anime too, but they never really talk about it. Crystal adds a certain non-canon part to this that was Naoko Takeuchi's original intention that never really manifested because the manga's creation was under similar time constraints that the anime was, namely that Endymion's entourage were paired off with Serenity's.

In Crystal, at least, the girls not only get their memories back, but also their past feelings with them. In the manga, while that only happens to Mamoru and Usagi because the past romance was left out (and later changed for Rei to always have included a vow of dedication and celibacy to Serenity) it's at least very clear that their feelings for each other simply resume from where they left off in the past.

If we take the anime on its own, it's not at all clear. In the end, it looks like they stick together because they're supposed to, especially when you factor SuperS in. Which I would really argue that, beyond what happens in the power up episodes (for character development reasons), we really should not. The scene KP mentioned where Mamoru looks visibly uncomfortable justifying his relationship with Usagi to Fish-Eye were incredibly uncomfortable to watch, because there is no reason at all to deal with Usagi's nonsense in SuperS.

I think that the scene, written by Yoji Enokido*, who also worked on Neon Genesis Evangelion and Revolutionary Girl Utena, is also there to make Mamoru his AND the audience's stand in that is left in bewilderment at what they're actually having to write and watch in this season. Mamoru doesn't know why he's in a relationship with Usagi at this point any more than we, the audience, know why we're watching this dumpster fire, Mr. Enokido doesn't know why he's writing this (and ends up quitting at Toei).

Who knows, maybe it really is love, but it really also is because it is love carried over from the distant past.

*Added for emphasis insofar as that Sailor Moon usually isn't that subtle, unless in episodes written by him.

Further explanation (just hidden in spoilers because post long enough, amirite?):
 

Spoiler

 

His Makoto episode in S for instance still has people think Makoto is secretly homosexual (she isn't), that she had a crush on Haruka (she didn't) or that it sucks that Sailor Uranus defeated Sailor Jupiter because being super-strong is Sailor Jupiter's trait (it doesn't). Haruka in S is a goal to strive towards, especially for Makoto and, interestingly enough, for Minako too. Haruka sits squarely atop Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and provides a guidepost for the girls to strive towards.

In the case of Makoto, it's her need to conform to society that's in the way of self-actualization. She expresses doubt to Usagi that she has a talent for cooking and that she initially just started to do everything she can do in order to conform more with society's expectations of women. Haruka is beyond caring for this - she does what she wants, and it is precisely because Makoto isn't homosexual that this works so well. Because Haruka is, in addition to being everything a Japanese woman shouldn't. Tall, strong, independent and having interests and talents that are traditionally associated with men, yet she's perfectly at peace with herself. If Haruka can do all that, surely Makoto can too.

That Sailor Uranus wins their little duel is just representative of the way Makoto still has to go. She manages to hurt Sailor Uranus, signifying that she's taken a tentative first, but very important step. She gets there, eventually - in SuperS of all places. Rushed as the resolution of her and Minako's power up episodes were, it did make Makoto realize that she's not only really good at this domestic stuff, but that she actually likes it, and ends up joining the cooking and gardening club in high school in spite of what the other students would have wanted. She could easily have become hugely popular as an athlete because, realistically, making her part of the track and field team is tantamount to cheating. She is superhumanly strong, after all.

Yet she didn't. For the first time ever, she rejects society's expectations or wishes, and does what she likes. Insofar her character arc is pretty complete, except for that glaring senpai shaped hole.

 

 

9 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

No, I think the writers pretty clearly wanted Makoto to be sad for forever, so that just wouldn't fly I'm afraid!

When it comes to romance she's in the same boat as Ami, Rei or Minako, but she sure served as a punching bag at times. Minako's story with Alan is perhaps a tad more tragic, but not when viewed through Makoto's issues. Minako has issues too, but they're different. And then there's her SuperS assault episode which is easily the worst of the core cast's. Not the worst episode, but the worst experience any of the five have to go through (even though the trophy for having the most horrific assault scenes goes to Unazuki and Reika, oh boy).

 

Edited April 25, 2021 by majestic

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

3 hours ago, majestic said:

First of all, let me ask you a question, would you really have liked more focus on Mamoru and Usagi as a couple?

No, I'd just like a different focus. The focus on Mamo-chan and Usako is already taking up the biggest slot behind monster fights, it just could have done a lot better.

Oh, and looks like Madoka is getting a sequel movie to Rebellion.

I watched a lot of Steven Universe last night, for only being 11 minutes it can pack in a lot of stuff.