About the Light side...

[Strider]

In the Valhalla games interview, I read that there were complaints about KOTOR's dark side role-playing options being mostly petty and thuggish. I agree with this, but I also think the game's Light side role-playing options needed improvement.

 

Most of the light side dialogue options were too self-righteous and submissive. My worst was the dialogue with Juhani. If you wanted to turn her, then unless you had high persuade skill, the only dialogue options you could choose that would get her to cooperate were the most annoying and self-righteous ones like "The first step to knowledge is admitting you are ignorant." Now why the hell would I want to say something like that? Also, a lot of the dialogue options for light side suggest you have to agree with everything the Jedi council said, though there were some exceptions.

 

Basically just because you're light side shouldn't mean you have to be a goody goody. How about being able to play a more defiant light side Jedi, like Qui Gon, or someone like Jolee?

[sniggy]

well at some points it seemed like the main character didn't have any personality of his own... which regarding the story fit pretty well, actually.

[Strider]

That's why there need to be more dialogue options, dark and light.

[OLD SKOOL WHEELMAN]

DEVS, are you listening? Anyways, agreed on all points...

[meek]

Somehow, my image of a perfect Jedi master is Dalai Lama

[Fardragon]

In the Valhalla games interview, I read that there were complaints about KOTOR's dark side role-playing options being mostly petty and thuggish. I agree with this, but I also think the game's Light side role-playing options needed improvement.

 

Most of the light side dialogue options were too self-righteous and submissive. My worst was the dialogue with Juhani. If you wanted to turn her, then unless you had high persuade skill, the only dialogue options you could choose that would get her to cooperate were the most annoying and self-righteous ones like "The first step to knowledge is admitting you are ignorant." Now why the hell would I want to say something like that? Also, a lot of the dialogue options for light side suggest you have to agree with everything the Jedi council said, though there were some exceptions.

 

Basically just because you're light side shouldn't mean you have to be a goody goody. How about being able to play a more defiant light side Jedi, like Qui Gon, or someone like Jolee?

Are you saying it is possible to aquire knowladge without admiting you are ignorant, or that the phrase is to obvious to be worth saying?

 

Jolee and Qui Gon are usually refered to as "grey" jedi (George Lucas's term). Jolee is of neutral alignment and is unable to use light side artifacts.

[LostStraw]

In the Valhalla games interview, I read that there were complaints about KOTOR's dark side role-playing options being mostly petty and thuggish. I agree with this, but I also think the game's Light side role-playing options needed improvement.

 

Most of the light side dialogue options were too self-righteous and submissive. My worst was the dialogue with Juhani. If you wanted to turn her, then unless you had high persuade skill, the only dialogue options you could choose that would get her to cooperate were the most annoying and self-righteous ones like "The first step to knowledge is admitting you are ignorant." Now why the hell would I want to say something like that? Also, a lot of the dialogue options for light side suggest you have to agree with everything the Jedi council said, though there were some exceptions.

 

Basically just because you're light side shouldn't mean you have to be a goody goody. How about being able to play a more defiant light side Jedi, like Qui Gon, or someone like Jolee?

Are you saying it is possible to aquire knowladge without admiting you are ignorant, or that the phrase is to obvious to be worth saying?

 

Jolee and Qui Gon are usually refered to as "grey" jedi (George Lucas's term). Jolee is of neutral alignment and is unable to use light side artifacts.

It's possible to learn new things withought acknowledging ones own ignorance. Things that are said don't always go in one ear and out the other, and usually reside in memory for some time (hence learning). Even if the person doesn't accept it, they have still learned something.

 

On a side note, Jolee never really seemed "grey" to me.. more like a tree hugging hippie. <_<

[Strider]

On a side note, Jolee never really seemed "grey" to me.. more like a tree hugging hippie. <_<

Lol.

 

Lucas can call them whatever he wants. Point is, they don't use the dark side of the force, and they won't use it. The way I see it, they're light side Jedi that just don't believe everything the council says goes. At the very least they're far more inclined towards the light side then the dark side.

[Quiquag]

I hope some characters leave your party if you go too far to the light side, unlike the first game.

[OLD SKOOL WHEELMAN]

Most likely, if party npc's will leave if your to much LS...

[Maria Caliban]

Lost Straw,

I think the key term is 'acquire knowledge', which suggest something beyond the mere acquisition of facts. For instance, many Westerner's interactions with non-Westerners has been characterized by the belief in their own cultural superiority. Thus, they tend to view everything through that lens. They might see the art, math, and social interaction that a developed culture has, yet they never see a 'civilization'.

[LostStraw]

On a side note, Jolee never really seemed "grey" to me.. more like a tree hugging hippie.  <_<

Lol.

 

Lucas can call them whatever he wants. Point is, they don't use the dark side of the force, and they won't use it. The way I see it, they're light side Jedi that just don't believe everything the council says goes. At the very least they're far more inclined towards the light side then the dark side.

Thanks, Jolee being "grey" actually makes sense now

 

Lost Straw,

I think the key term is 'acquire knowledge', which suggest something beyond the mere acquisition of facts. For instance, many Westerner's interactions with non-Westerners has been characterized by the belief in their own cultural superiority. Thus, they tend to view everything through that lens. They might see the art, math, and social interaction that a developed culture has, yet they never see a 'civilization'.

From www.dictionary.com

 

"ignorance

 

\Ig"no*rance\, n. [F., fr. L. ignorantia.] 1. The condition of being ignorant; the want of knowledge in general, or in relation to a particular subject; the state of being uneducated or uninformed.

 

Ignorance is the curse of God, Knowledge the wing wherewith we fly to heaven. --Shak.

 

2. (Theol.) A willful neglect or refusal to acquire knowledge which one may acquire and it is his duty to have. --Book of Common Prayer."

 

I concede my argument. :ph34r:

[Fardragon]

Any argument that invokes religion is invalid, since it is based on an invalid premise.

 

As someone who has a doctorate in Astrophysics I am acutly aware that the more I learn the less I know.

[LostStraw]

Any argument that invokes religion is invalid, since it is based on an invalid premise.

 

As someone who has a doctorate in Astrophysics I am acutly aware that the more I learn the less I know.

What argument based on religion?

 

Just because it's from the book of common prayer does not mean it was a statement based on or from religion. I thought it was a valid definition, except maybe the duty part.

 

and I conceded if you didn't notice <_<

[Quiquag]

Well will it be possible to be a "grey" Jedi? The first game forced you to be light or dark.

[EnderAndrew]

Any argument that invokes religion is invalid, since it is based on an invalid premise.

 

As someone who has a doctorate in Astrophysics I am acutly aware that the more I learn the less I know.

One of the smartest fellows I know was a devout atheist.

 

He broke off an engagement to the love of his life after repeatedly mocking her for having faith in a religion. He said that only an idiot would believe in the existance of the divine.

 

Two years later after a theosophic experience, he is a devout believer himself. And he calls himself an idiot for insinuating that she was.

 

I am a deeply religious man, and a man who loves science. I believe in questioning conventional logic, and probing deeper to understand why. I have found my fair share of close-minded religious and scientific zealots. The condition is not limited to one group or the other.

 

In your post I see two statements. One would lead me to believe that you are a close-minded fool. The latter is where you claim to have an open-mind. You acknowledge the fact that you don't completely understand the nature of the universe and everything in it, but you are convinced that religion is inherently invalid.

 

Hmm. Which am I to believe?

 

Spellmar says:

acutely

[EnderAndrew]

Jumping on topic.

 

I don't believe it is the intent of the devs to neglect dialogue in any manner. I'm sure they are doing their best to try and write good dialogue. Given these guys track record, I'm expecting good dialogue.

[Strider]

Yeah, I'm sure they'll write good dialogue. The question is whether there'll be enough dialogue options. The dialogue in KOTOR was well-written, just mostly restricted to the good guy response, the psycho response or the apathetic response.

[Quiquag]

The dark side responses were always so hilarious, most of the time I would just laugh reading them.

ie. (Sith trooper) "What are you doing here?"

 

(PC) "Oh..Im just here to Kill you!"

[EnderAndrew]

If the game mechanics are to support LS or DS that's fine.

 

However, can we have some options?

 

Would you like to see my wares today?

 

- Yes. I've come to shop.

- That depends. Are you running any specials?

- I can't believe you try to pawn this junk off. Do you take me for an idiot with poor taste?

- Certainly. You still offer a sizeable discount to Sith who are kind enough not to eviscerate you on the spot, correct?

- I can be easily persuaded to examine your wares. However, that isn't the reason I stopped by.

- Hanes. Hanes 32. Judge Wapner is on at 4:30

[Fardragon]

Any argument that invokes religion is invalid, since it is based on an invalid premise.

 

As someone who has a doctorate in Astrophysics I am acutly aware that the more I learn the less I know.

One of the smartest fellows I know was a devout atheist.

 

He broke off an engagement to the love of his life after repeatedly mocking her for having faith in a religion. He said that only an idiot would believe in the existance of the divine.

 

Two years later after a theosophic experience, he is a devout believer himself. And he calls himself an idiot for insinuating that she was.

 

I am a deeply religious man, and a man who loves science. I believe in questioning conventional logic, and probing deeper to understand why. I have found my fair share of close-minded religious and scientific zealots. The condition is not limited to one group or the other.

 

In your post I see two statements. One would lead me to believe that you are a close-minded fool. The latter is where you claim to have an open-mind. You acknowledge the fact that you don't completely understand the nature of the universe and everything in it, but you are convinced that religion is inherently invalid.

 

Hmm. Which am I to believe?

 

Spellmar says:

acutely

I'm both!

 

Actually I used to be a ferverent evangelical christian, but I eventualy I found I could no-longer honestly reconcile the inconsitencies. I am an athiest due to loss of faith rather than as an act of faith.

 

I did break my own rule never to get into an argument about relegion though!

 

You can't win, because the defender of faith will argue with all thier might, because the person they are really trying to convince is themself.

[Fardragon]

P.S. I'm dyslexic, I do wish there was a spell checker on these boards.

[anari_quun]

Although I'll admit that the Good side/Dark side morality/dialogue choices are mired in religious connotation, we should keep the unwinnable (and unprovable) argument of religion/god/"God"/atheism to an off topic forum.

 

Getting back on track, I think the entire Good side/Dark side system that's in place right now should be reworked. Just because I do something bad doesn't mean I'm using the Dark side of the Force.

 

Come to think of it, Force powers should not be restricted to the Good or Dark side of the Force. If I have to use lightning to kill a droid, I use lightning, good or bad. Luke chokes some Gamorreans in the beginning of ROTJ. It's how you use your powers, not which powers you use.

[Renegade]

I think I have to disagree. To take off the limit would be to say that the end justifies the means. I think part of being a light side jedi means you won't resort to extremely malicious and cruel acts. Therefore powers like force crush and kill become out of the question. As far as dialouge I think light side jedi should be able to use force persuade in some situations without taking a dark side hit. But as far as specific powers I think the system in place is just about as good as it's going to get.

 

-Samori

[Mendoza]

I think I have to disagree. To take off the limit would be to say that the end justifies the means. I think part of being a light side jedi means you won't resort to extremely malicious and cruel acts. Therefore powers like force crush and kill become out of the question. As far as dialouge I think light side jedi should be able to use force persuade in some situations without taking a dark side hit. But as far as specific powers I think the system in place is just about as good as it's going to get.

 

-Samori

So force choking someone is dark side, but using stasis then chopping them to pieces is light side?

 

The only genuine seeming dark side powers in KotOR are drain life, insanity and plague. I guess lightning might inflict more pain than a lightsaber, but it's still just an offensive attack. Something like force rage is much more overtly dark since it intrisically means giving in to your darker emotions.

 

Then again, some of the light side powers seem less than light side. Destroy droid anyone? It's entirely destructive (and seems to imply that droids are of less value than people).