Anime - A Rollercoaster of Emotion

[majestic]

Final thoughts on Sailor Moon Crystal.

Hard to say. In retrospect, this makes Sailor Moon SuperS look decent. I won't go as far as to say that it makes SuperS look good, unless you specifically want to look only at animation, because I think SuperS looks the best of all the five original seasons (and each of them looks better than Crystal). Sailor Moon Sailor Stars has some really good animation too, but with the entire team more or less changed in between, it does look noticably different.

I've talked at length by now about how everything that was problematic in Sailor Moon was exacerbated by Sailor Moon Crystal. The worst part about watching this wasn't watching a cashgrab by Toei, even though that it clearly was in the first arc at the very least, or even watching a sub-par reboot of what isn't just one of my favorite animes of all time, but something that made a lasting impression on a younger version of me.

No. That's not it. That would not bother me as much, the world is full of sub-par terrible looking CGI cashgrab reboots of shows that I watched as a kid, like Maya the Honey Bee.

Watching Sailor Moon Crystal is like staring into the abyss and realizing that it would have taken just one wrong step at the wrong time, by the wrong person, and something that played such a large part in my life would have come out not only completely different, but absolutely, loathably terrible. Even now, I'm giving the manga the benefit of the doubt, even though I probably should not. It might be that Sailor Moon Crystal just distilled the really awful parts and made them worse, but that is certainly not the case for the major issues with the storyline(s).

For now I'm hoping, against all reason, that the manga has more time for the girls and that it was a lamentable decision by the creative team of Crystal to put Usagi and Mamoru front and center, and that there is some reason why this was or is as popular as it is. Something beyond riding on the coattails of its anime adaptation.

Because everything that could be called good in Sailor Moon Crystal has to do with other characters or their interactions with Usagi - every time she's not the sole focus of something it's at least potentially not terrible, and in a sea of darkness even the faintest of lights shine brightly.

I liked Pluto's original role, even if it immediately took a dump over it five episodes later and reduced her to exposition lady #4 that talks about space and time really quickly afterwards.  I like Chibi-Usa a lot in Sailor Moon Crystal, but I've also come to realize that I liked her in the original anime as long as I remove Sailor Moon SuperS from the continuity and pretend it doesn't exist. I wish I would remember more clearly why I hated her so much a quarter of a century ago, but I don't.

It might have something to do with watching the German dub. I know for a fact that Rei was much meaner to Usagi in the dub than she was in the original, now that I've seen it with translated subtitles that were not the dub transcript. Dub Chibi-Usa might have been a lot brattier in R than in the original, and I hated how much she hogged screen time - and Mamoru in R. Mamoru was already being mean to Usagi for stupid reasons, and she just made it worse. I wanted the two to be happy (in some way this goes back to my self-hate at the time).

I'm also somewhat certain that being older made me change my outlook a bit. Chibi-Usa blames herself for everything that went wrong in the future, and of course she immediately latches on the closest thing she finds to a father figure, thanks to time travel that happens to be her actual father.

Back to Crystal for a bit now. I have no idea how Toei managed to adapt the material they were given into something as interesting, funny and moving as the Sailor Moon anime. This is like one of these rare once in a lifetime occasions where everything just comes together and works. From the time and budget starved artystle decisions, to the writing team that apparently was jackpot all of its own (until studio interference messed up SuperS), to the music made and used.

You're probably getting tired of me bringing up X-Files, but it does share something interesting with Sailor Moon. When Chris Carter made X-Files, they initially had no idea what they were doing. The first season was a series of standalone episodes, but its massive success and fan reactions to certain characters led to them given much more expanded roles (and Fox demanding more, like Toei). Chris Carter came up with a conspiracy storyline the show would follow mostly out of necessity (Gillian Anderson was pregnant, so she was abducted by "aliens" on the show) until a somewhat satisfying conclusion in its 6th season - and afterwards the storyline just fell apart. It became clear much earlier on that the writers were just making everything up as they went along though.

And like in Sailor Moon, while sometimes interesting, the story episodes of X-Files weren't the best episodes unless they focused on the characters and not the actual "plot". And like in Sailor Moon, over time, the strength of X-Files was in its incredible creative team, the way they shot and framed episodes and the on-screen chemistry of David Duchovny and Gillian Anderson. And like Naoko Takeuchi, nothing Chris Carter ever made came close to the success of X-Files.

The creative team that worked on X-Files over the course of its run went on to make and work on, amongst others, Space: Above and Beyond, Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, American Horror Story, Game of Thrones, Westworld, Supernatural, Smallville and The Man In The High Castle.

This excursion is only there to illustrate that I think what is now known as The Chris Carter Effect apparently hit the Sailor Moon manga in full force. While the writing of the first arc - both in the manga and very much in Sailor Moon Crystal - leaves a bit to be desired (to put it diplomatically), at least it doesn't come across as schizophrenic. The story beats, while not really great, don't feel like they're made up just to fill a chapter each month.

The second arc, but especially the third one do. This disjointed mess was clearly just written from one month to the next, with perhaps only the barest idea of where to go. How else would you go from "We will never be friends, or even allies!" to "We've always just wanted to be close to you and fight together!" in the span of 20 minutes?

Then there's the creepy element. The first arc has Tuxedo Kamen be a stalker that abducts Usagi and he kisses her at a time she can't consent, being passed out from exhaustion. The framing of these shots isn't negative, unlike when the same thing happens to Usagi but it is done by a different character in the second arc. It's the same thing happening on the screen, just one is clearly wrong, the other isn't. This does leave one thinking that the line between flirting and sexual assault is the amount of attraction between two people. Is this the message you really want to transport today?

The manga remains a product of its time, and as such should be left standing like that. I don't think it should be changed like it's all the rage nowadays, but if you make an adaptation it really doesn't hurt to overthink tropes or problematic scenes.

It's also something that needs to be brought up again. This entire Black Lady business at the end of the Black Moon arc is deeply disturbing, and the implications have a lasting effect. I see Usagi, Mamoru and Chibi-Usa sleeping in the same bed, and it forms horrible scenarios in my head. One poor girl has a seizure on screen and I post what I thought not only once, but twice.

Now don't get me wrong, before anyone accuses me of hyprocrisy. How can I read and enjoy Sexy Losers and then have a problem with (forced) incest or 12 year old girls in underwear. When I read Sexy Losers I know what I'm getting into. Sailor Moon isn't the right vehicle for topics like this, and I have no idea how or why Naoko Takeuchi got away with it in the manga, but it was a good idea to drop it.

Lastly, one of the more annoying parts of Sailor Moon Crystal is when it unthinkingly takes internal monologue and dialogue from the manga and puts it on screen even though we see what's happening. I have no idea why that is in there. It is mostly pointless at best, and detracts from the scenes at worst. And it almost always is at its worst.

So where does that leave us? Quick TL;DR:

Go watch X-Files if you haven't already. The show was way ahead of its time, the lead actors are terrific and the writing is often outstanding. It does take a bit to find its footing in the first season, like many other TV shows, but unless you totally hate the supernatural (how or why are you watching anime then?) you should be good. It should also be noted that I loved the X-Files even though I normally can't stand police or detective procedurals. 

And unless you're curious, please, for the love of god do not watch the first two Sailor Moon Crystal arcs. I can't even recommend the Infinity arc, but it does make for a good comparison between the old and the new show (and how much better character development is when it isn't rushed).

 

[majestic]

13 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

@majestic? Any new grand insights on life to share with the rest of us?

Are you psychic, how did you know I was typing up a storm just right now?

edit: I also just realized that I barely touched on the production value aspects of the show, but I don't think there's anything left to be said. It looks terrible, it's animated terribly and evn the upgraded third season doesn't change that too much.

Edited March 7, 2021 by majestic

[Bartimaeus]

37 minutes ago, majestic said:

Chibi-Usa blames herself for everything that went wrong in the future, and of course she immediately latches on the closest thing she finds to a father figure, thanks to time travel that happens to be her actual father.

Well, isn't that convenient?

In regards to the "the original show was on the edge of a knife": it really is crazy how some stuff happens totally as a product of lucky happenstance - or the opposite, completely fails because of it. Pour one out for all the millions of great ideas, whether in entertainment or science or anything else, that people have had that didn't turn out because of some absolute random garbage happening that made it fail or be not even given a chance to happen at all. Sailor Moon made it for the most part, but was effectively the weird amalgamation of ideas, compromises, and redesigns between a pile of different people. Sometimes collaboration and compromises between different creative minds, particularly ones that would otherwise be limited in their particular fields of vision (e.g. Naoko Takeuchi), can be surprisingly better than just one person being given the reins.

X-Files: I've seen all of the first season, and a bit of the later seasons (including the not so good 7, 8, and 9 seasons). My mom was a fan...up to a point, so I saw a lot of it. There were some absolutely great episodes that I still have fond memories of...but on the whole, when I sat down and watched the entirety of season 1 some years back, I found that this was the type of show that while it would have good episodes, it would also bore me to death half of the time. I've always said that I experience the negative parts of entertainment a lot more strongly than I enjoy the positive parts, and so I have a very tough time sticking with shows with a more rocky up-and-down nature like that. A little inconsistency is one thing, but that was unfortunately too much for me to stick with.

Edited March 7, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

I've belatedly realized that majestic actually mentioned Star Wars in his previous post by way of the "Abeloth", so that wasn't what you meant. Whoops! In my defense, I have no clue what any of the Star Wars or Marvel-related crap you guys are/were talking about is, so my brain probably just ignored it.

lmao

I used to be a fan of Marvel comics (hell, my username on this site is from a superhero comic I was reading at the time oh my god I have been on here a long time) but I really soured on superheroes and a lot of stuff over the last few years*. I can remember some stuff, notably those stupid ****ing universes have an assload of alternate timelines and ****, but I don't care and can't be assed to watch them. Really though cape**** is like most porn, once you've seen a bit you've pretty much seen it all.

*This coincided with me getting back into anime, watching more movies, and reading more nonfiction

[Bartimaeus]

Alternative/multiple timelines is one of my huge pet peeves in fictional universes. Whenever that happens, it's basically an "oh, so nothing of what I've [read/watched/played] mattered in the slightest even in-universe, and might as well just not have happened? alright, okay, yeah, cool, sayonara" kind of moment. And on a similar note, if you're gonna have time travel, it's gotta be the really dumb immutable, one timeline kind - even though singular timelines with time travel make absolutely no sense because the circumstances that would make one travel back in time to change something in the past would necessarily change the future that would make it so you wouldn't go back in time...but then that would result in needing to again...which would result in them not needing to...and so on and so forth. It's always an instant dumb paradox that's easily avoidable by just...not using time travel garbage, but at least it doesn't completely cheapen the series and its story/characters with multiple timelines/universes nonsense.

Never heard of Kaine Parker outside of you using it, so congratulations on me solely associating it with you.

For many years, I didn't watch any television and just occasionally watched a movie here and there, and only played video games and read books - but I'm currently mostly off books right now, and I had to stop playing video games outside of the odd short indie game that gets my interest because of chronic pain reasons...which is why I started getting into movie-watching, which eventually lead to me seeing a poster of Nausicaa that caught my interest and then seeing the rest of the Studio Ghibli films, which eventually relaxed my attitudes toward anime a little because up until a few years ago I'd basically been totally all...

Spoiler

...my entire life, so that marked change is now how we find ourselves here, watching Sailor Moon. What a journey it's been, folks. Mind you, the weeaboos who like all of the generic trash being put out today are basically still aliens to me, but at least I can find a little ground with the slightly more refined people, .

Edited March 7, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

18 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Alternative/multiple timelines is one of my huge pet peeves in fictional universes. Whenever that happens, it's basically an "oh, so nothing of what I've [read/watched/played] mattered in the slightest even in-universe, and might as well just not have happened? alright, okay, yeah, cool, sayonara" kind of moment. And on a similar note, if you're gonna have time travel, it's gotta be the really dumb immutable, one timeline kind - even though singular timelines with time travel make absolutely no sense because the circumstances that would make one travel back in time to change something in the past would necessarily change the future that would make it so you wouldn't go back in time...but then that would result in needing to again...which would result in them not needing to...and so on and so forth. It's always an instant dumb paradox that's easily avoidable by just...not using time travel garbage, but at least it doesn't completely cheapen the series and its story/characters with multiple timelines/universes nonsense.

Never heard of Kaine Parker outside of you using it, so congratulations on me solely associating it with you.

For many years, I didn't watch any television and just occasionally watched a movie here and there, and only played video games and read books - but I'm currently mostly off books right now, and I had to stop playing video games outside of the odd short indie game that gets my interest because of chronic pain reasons...which is why I started getting into movie-watching, which eventually lead to me seeing a poster of Nausicaa that caught my interest and then seeing the rest of the Studio Ghibli films, which eventually relaxed my attitudes toward anime a little because up until a few years ago I'd basically been totally all...

  Reveal hidden contents

...my entire life, so that marked change is now how we find ourselves here, watching Sailor Moon. What a journey it's been, folks. Mind you, the weeaboos who like all of the generic trash being put out today are basically still aliens to me, but at least I can find a little ground with the slightly more refined people, .

I can take it in some interpretations (like Sailor Moon, Star Trek, and JoJo, all of which have very different instances yet work better than cape****'s 10000000000 universes that are mostly just **** in gaudy costumes) but generally the whole alternative universe/timeline thing is just dumb.

That really sucks to hear about the chronic pain man. I don't have anything like that but frequent bouts of depression prevent me from really playing games like I used to, but I can usually watch **** so there you go.

Most anime isn't good, but really we can apply the same to most movies, TV, games, or whatever. I just don't have patience for stuff I don't like anymore.

Following what @majestic asked earlier, the most recent episode of Sailor Moon I watched, the ninja one, really captures my feelings so far about Super S. The gags are funny, but watching reheated relationship drama that was already resolved at least one season ago is just ****ing dumb. It doesn't add anything and just makes the show worse. At times I wish it was just ****ing awful so I could walk away, but the good bits and investment from the previous seasons keep me roped in.

[Bartimaeus]

That's definitely true in regards to "most anything isn't good".

Sailor Moon has my "preferred" version of time travel, which is the 'dumb'-but-less-annoying single timeline kind (...as far as I can tell anyways). The main plot of Sailor Moon barely registers in my brain, though, so they probably could've had a hundred different timelines and it wouldn't have really mattered too much as long as the characters didn't get messed up. I'm looking 'forward' to experiencing SuperS in the near future to see just bad it is, though!

Crappy story incoming (although the ending's not all bad): A handful of years back, I was already having trouble with specifically my right hand and wrist on account of some hereditary crap, then I was in a extraordinarily stupid accident and had a bad neck injury that I've never really quite fully recovered from but am mostly functional with - constant neck and shoulder pain that never goes away, though. The real bad part of that was that the hand pain multiplied and it was becoming non-functional, so I forced myself to be left-handed and do everything, including using a computer mouse, left-handed. Unfortunately, I learned that it was not just my right hand that was afflicted, as I pretty quickly started having the same kinds of pain and malfunctions in my left hand. It's difficult to impress upon others how difficult and utterly maddening it is to actually have hands, but to not be able to use them for hardly anything because they're in a constant state of searing pain - pain to the point where it's frequently not possible to even sleep because of that pain.

Ended up doing a lot of physical therapy over a two year period, had a surgery on one of them to try to clean up some physical problems, and developed a routine of frequent stretching, icing, and reinforcing via some elbow and wrist straps, and had to stop using any kind of computer mouse for a couple of years. Went all keyboard + bound some controls, including mouse, to a gosh danged gamepad because I could not grab a mouse without uncontrollable pain - and I do mean uncontrollable, because there frequently were times I tried to work through the pain and discovered that my hands would simply no longer listen to what I was trying to tell them to do (which is scary and also infuriating in of itself), and instead would just get stuck. Nevertheless, all that effort has culminated in having hands that are still almost always between hurting some and simply sore, but...they're actually hands that don't usually actively make me want to kill myself. That's not a joke, either - there were many very dark days during that time, more than at any other time in my already not-so-bright life (though some other personal tragedies that occurred around the same time undoubtedly did not help, but I don't need to go into that again). It is constant upkeep, though, and it's a risky proposition to try to play anything for too long...so by and large, when I do play something, I stick to short and more novel indie games - my days of playing pretty much anything for more than a couple of hours in a day - at most! - are long behind me. Once in a while, I make an exception...but really only when I actually can without too much risk. But hey, relative to a few years back, things are a lot better, so it's not all bad. And I've got other things going on that keep me busy anyways, so the loss of gaming as a primary hobby doesn't feel as bad as it used to.

(e): Oh yeah, also: since I forced myself to be left-handed, I actually discovered that...I can really actually do most things equally well left-handed and right-handed, which I guess means I'm at least sort of ambidextrous? Not entirely sure on that one, but it seems to be a lot more than most people can do. I would've thought I was only right-handed my entire life without being forced to switch... Silver linings!

Edited March 7, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[majestic]

7 hours ago, KaineParker said:

Following what @majestic asked earlier, the most recent episode of Sailor Moon I watched, the ninja one, really captures my feelings so far about Super S. The gags are funny, but watching reheated relationship drama that was already resolved at least one season ago is just ****ing dumb. It doesn't add anything and just makes the show worse. At times I wish it was just ****ing awful so I could walk away, but the good bits and investment from the previous seasons keep me roped in.

Thanks, that validates my feeling about SuperS and that episode in particular perfectly. It's what I mean by shapeshifting aliens replaced all the characters, and/or the writers, because the writer of that episode had been on board since season one. It's even worse because earlier in the season, in the episode with the giant beach ball monster, Usagi isn't at all worried about the things she's going nuts over in the ninja one, even though she has much more reason to.
 

Spoiler

 

That one-off character was after all interested in Mamoru and even Chibi-Usa figured out she would be a much better fit than Usagi, and Rei is, in the end, her best friend. The worst part is, this could have been a really fun episode without any issues. Could have kept Rei walking in on Mamoru while bathing, and Usagi fighting with Rei over that, and Yuichiro being worried when Rei's ex-boyfriend comes to stay would make sense too, he is that sort of dweeb.

Just cut out Usagi flying off the handle because Ami talks to Mamoru and her stalking Rei as if she'd do anything to hurt her. Sure they're fighting all the time, but they're also more than willing to die for each other. Find some way to have Usagi or Minako trash Mamoru's appartment.

The season is full of these little things that are so strange to see. Later in an episode Rei, Usagi and Makoto develop a fear of heights for five minutes, after almost four full seasons of jumping around, hanging over ledges, appearing on street lamps or fighting on rooftops.

 

Alternate dimensions don't bother me too much though. I guess I don't see it as invalidation of the "prime" universe. SG-1 had a version like that where a device called a quantum mirror was used to travel between alternate universes, and most of the episodes were either goofy fun or touching character explorations (and a way for otherwise dead characters to rake some of that sweet guest star cash in). It does have the bad aftertaste of being used as a deus ex machina-ish way to warn the prime universe that a major threat is incoming, but it's not like season one was really great anyway.

Time travel, while I like it, is something best left out in your setting, unless it's a movie and is the only point. When it is good it's a nice exploration of whatever issue you want to highlight, when it's bad you get Star Trek: Enterprise's temporal cold war situation. So either use it lightly, or just go all out goofy with it, like in Doctor Who. It's okay in Sailor Moon, but not really good.

Spoiler

The only good thing Sailor Moon does with time travel is erasing SuperS from the continuity at the beginning of Sailor Stars.

And lastly, @Bartimaeus, that's some tough crap, but I'm glad that you found a way to make it somewhat workable. While I can't even begin to imagine losing control of my hands, I can see first hand how frightening that is. I mentioned it in one of the other threads before, my mother has Parkinson's, and it mostly affects her right hand. It's heartbreaking enough to see, can't imagine how terrible that must be to experience when things that used to be a matter of course in your life suddenly start to become problematic or impossible.

Not that it helps you any, but I can relate to the problems with falling asleep. They're not caused by physical pain in my case, but they've always been there.

My focus on entertainment waves back and forth. There are times like now where almost all my free time is spent on watching TV or films, then there are times where all I do is play games, and times where all I do is read books. It's never really a mix though, and a focus period can go for years at a time. Interestingly enough reading fiction for entertainment is the newest of these. It wasn't until I was in my late teens and early 20ies that I started to do that (did read a lot of non-fiction though).

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by majestic

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

@BartimaeusThat's rough man. But at least you discovered an ambidextrous talent and got to enjoy the wonders of animation.

@majesticYeah, like the episodes aren't necessarily bad in themselves (aside from the subtexts you can read in about sexual assault and pedophilia/beastiality, in which case OH NO) but in context to the last three seasons I just watched it's not good. I actually think having long-term writers can explain some of it if they decided or were instructed to go back to the tone of the earlier episodes and took that to jettison how the characters changed over the last three seasons. Another problem is that it feels like we're back to a(n even more) hyper focus on Usagi and Chibi-Usa with the other character sliding into the background.

[majestic]

2 hours ago, KaineParker said:

@majesticYeah, like the episodes aren't necessarily bad in themselves (aside from the subtexts you can read in about sexual assault and pedophilia/beastiality, in which case OH NO) but in context to the last three seasons I just watched it's not good. I actually think having long-term writers can explain some of it if they decided or were instructed to go back to the tone of the earlier episodes and took that to jettison how the characters changed over the last three seasons. Another problem is that it feels like we're back to a(n even more) hyper focus on Usagi and Chibi-Usa with the other character sliding into the background.

Yes, that's pretty much what apparently happened. I've read that Toei wanted the show re-tooled/soft rebooted to recapture the tone of its earlier/earliest episodes, to stay relevant for new kids tuning in mostly. The show ran for three years at the time, so the old target audience that started watching became older and Toei thought it would be better to drop them and go back to find an entirely new audience.

That worked so well that the last of the old writers and directors left over SuperS. Reading that they left over creative differences really just all but confirms the theory of studio interference. A strange juxtaposition to the manga, where the crazy in the earlier arcs and chapters was reined in by editors and Toei gave the showrunners more leeway to do their own thing (like the girls dying heroically in battle, rather than just keel over to transfer their energy to Usagi like they do in the manga), and the more time passed the crazier the source material was allowed to become and the tighter controlled the anime got.
 

Spoiler

 

One of the big issue is that SuperS feels like it should have been called Sailor Chibi-Moon Season One. It's effectively a spinoff that makes Chibi-Usa the main character and the world is seen through her eyes. That could have been interesting, and we could sit here and argue that Usagi's regressed personality is simply because we're looking at her through Chibi-Usa's eyes, and that Chibi-Usa is maybe an unreliable narrator and these scenes with her and Usagi don't actually happen in the way they do. It could also make a point about growing up and relate this to Chibi-Usa's memories of her mother being mature and regal.

But they didn't do that, and it was a train wreck. The presence of the assault subtext (that's really something else though - isn't subtext supposed to be subtle? There's nothing subtle about these assault scenes, they're as on the nose as you can be without showing direct rape on screen) could also have been going somewhere, and it doesn't, and the less is said about the manga's decision to include a romance between a nine year old girl and a magical pony the better.

The one good thing that does was that it finally stops Chibi-Usa from actively lusting after Mamoru, something that really should have happened at the end of the Black Moon arc. Ugh.

It also feels like even Chibi-Usa's elementary school friends have more screen time than the rest of the girls, not counting Usagi. That's so bizarre. I don't give a flying fart about Momo, or this pathetic excuse of a character with the green spiky hair that I've already forgotten the name of. Gotta look up that name now. Great. Ah, there he is, wiki to the rescue: Kyusuke. No wonder I forgot that already.

 

I put potentially spoilery things into the spoiler. It doesn't contain much, but anyway.

Final question for today guys, did you think we'd be sitting here discussing the finer points of Usagi's character growth and how SuperS regresses her character in favor of having more childlike humor (childish at times even) when you saw her getting stuck in a giant tennis ball in episode 14?

[Bartimaeus]

Well, of course I did - it goes without saying that being turned into a giant tennis ball was obviously a highly traumatic yet meaningful experience critical to the growth of Usagi's character. Indeed, her turning into a giant tennis ball was really symbolic of the fact that she lacked her own agency early on in the show, not really having a clue what she was doing or was supposed to be doing and instead being entirely subject to the fortunes of deadly situations that were completely out of her control, while the greater players and shadowy puppet masters made her and the other Sailor Guardians dance along to their every whim...like a tennis ball being hit back and forth on a tennis court. It's quite profound, really.

(e): In fact, I'd really say that it tells you a lot about Crystal that they wouldn't have the courage - nay, the GUMPTION - to turn its protagonist into a giant tennis ball like the original show did. It's all "Mamo" this, and "Usako" that - it's actually rather pathetic. How could they have so completely failed to identify what was truly important and made the original show work?

Edited March 7, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

18 minutes ago, majestic said:

Final question for today guys, did you think we'd be sitting here discussing the finer points of Usagi's character growth and how SuperS regresses her character in favor of having more childlike humor (childish at times even) when you saw her getting stuck in a giant tennis ball in episode 14?

Yes, after all this is a video game forum that draws in people who are used to engaging in detailed discussions over stuff like spell power creep of magic missile vs sleep.

Steven Universe is next on my list unless the Cartoon Network acts like a bunch of ****. Let me know what you think about JoJo after you finish up Phantom Blood. 

[InsaneCommander]

I started SM S. The enemies are significantly stronger and the bad guys even seen to have noticed they are failing earlier than in the other seasons.

Sailor Uranus and Neptune seem to be much more experienced and maybe stronger too. Funny how they openly and mercilessly abandoned the girls in the cat episode.

And is Usagi secretly a supergenious? She barely studies and is always having really bad grades, but somehow in the end it seems to always end up well. So she must be compensating in some way in the later exams.

[Bartimaeus]

30 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

And is Usagi secretly a supergenious?

Well, let's not get crazy here, . The road to becoming Neo-Queen Serenity is a long one...it's a thousand years into the future, as a matter of fact. Flunking some grades in the 20th century did slow down her ascension by a few hundred years, but she still eventually got there, and that's what matters.

Edited March 7, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[majestic]

  

1 hour ago, InsaneCommander said:

And is Usagi secretly a supergenious? She barely studies and is always having really bad grades, but somehow in the end it seems to always end up well. So she must be compensating in some way in the later exams.

I don't know if you've read the very engaging stories we've swapped about school time in this thread, but I have a little anecdote to share. A friend of mine who I met at the school I went to repeated a year twice, which means he was in the course for 7 years instead of 5. This is also the maximum amount of retries you get, more than twice and you're failed out of school altogether. For the rest of this keep in mind that the school I was in, at the time, rejected 90% of the applicants, and 85% to 90% of those wash out.

That friend was, for all intents and purposes, an Usagi (a really nice guy but not the brightest bulb, and we to this day have no idea how he managed to pass the applicaiton SAT), but at the same time he was an ingenious con artist. So where I got by simply because attending half the classes and putting in zero effort was enough for me to get passing grades, he got by on pure nerves, a hell of lot of effort put into cheating and simply talking teachers into giving him passing grades with some sob story he just cooked up, or flat out engaging them in conversation about anything but the question he was just asked so that they forgot about the topic and just gave him a passing grade.

He was really charming and funny about it too. I remember he once gave a presentation in our history class. His topic was supposed to be the reasons for the mid 19th century unrests in Europe. He casually walked out, put on a single slide full of text and started reading the first paragraph out loud. Our history professor looked at him and went: "Did you even read the presentation you've copied? That paragraph was complete garbage."

He just smiled confidently, and said: "Well then let's see if the next paragraph is any better, shall we?"

That was such a funny situation it had the entire class in stiches, and the professor too, so she just said that he should go and look for a real presentation to copy and then redo it next time. For all intents and purposes he should have failed history, but he didn't. He put a little more effort into copying a presentation that was actually on topic later and got a passing grade out of it.

Our school also runs a practice firm and a practice bank. We were supposed to spend two hours a week there, in years two and three (I think the current curriculum is either four hours a week in the second or third grade, not sure which one, but we were definitely the last class to do two hours for two years).

Most of the time I just made sure to sit in the practice bank where I did all sorts of hilarious things (like making transactions disappear), and my teachers were happy enough to get me out of the regular practice firm because I kept being ridiculous. All the schools, including the one I went to, take this stuff really seriously. It's like serious business, you know, so nobody else really was into receiving bills that read payable in unmarked, non-sequential small denomination bank notes upon serviced rendered. I sure found it funny. To be honest, while it's admittedly a little childish, I still do.

The guy that ran the practice bank, a real life banker with a side job as teacher, was more than happy to always have me sitting there because I easily got the workload done on my own and he could do whatever he did. Most of the time he was just gone. Guess he cooked up some money earning scheme or other, whatever bankers really do when they have free time, like getting high and posting confusing pro-fascist nonsense on the Obsidian forum.

At least until the second semester of the third grade where the other teachers decided that other students also need to spend time doing practice banking. So, first time in the semester I showed up. We sabotaged the network before the class started so we couldn't really get any work done. For the rest of the semester, the guy I'm talking about, another friend of mine from my school days and myself went to practice field sales at the McDonalds next to the school for two hours. Every week. EVERY week.

Wait, I need to mention some other detail now. Our student groups (called "class" here, which makes this a little confusing to talk about) at the time - this were the mid 90ies after all - had what was called a class registry. A small book where each teacher would note missing students, special circumstances or events and the topics of the classes prior to the lessons beginning. For the entire semester, the class registry would interestingly enough go missing for the two hours that we were supposed to be in the practice firm.

Should the registry be unavailable, a provisional replacement must be used. In other words, just a piece of paper that the administrator of our "class" is supposed to copy into the proper registry. Since the practice firm offce rooms were on the other end of the school, and it took a couple of minutes to walk from one end to the other, nobody went back to look for the registry. It was always presumed to be forgotten in the classroom. It happens. The book usually stays in the classroom that you get assigned in the beginning of the year, unless your upcoming classes are taking place somewhere else (programming lessons always were in computer rooms, obviously, and the practice firm had its own offices).

As luck would have it, the provisional register also had a tendency to disappear, right around the time when the real one was brought back from the McD's. Fast forward to the end of the year, we get our grades. The field sales force actually gets a passing grade, but just barely. Why? Well because we apparently always were present in the classes, but never stood out, neither negatively nor positively. Having never drawn attention in some way, the teachers presumed we did what was asked of us, but without applying ourselves or giving it any effort. The very definition of "passing" you see. Yep.  

Oh boy, some of the other guys in class who had received a failing grade but were always around and even spent some effort (but just couldn't hack it for some reason) were really mad. They went to complain, but nothing came of it. Heck, our administrative teacher, who was... nothing else but the P.E. guy (and someone who always skipped classes whenver he could, as he told us), even told them that they've just learned a valuable life lesson: Sometimes it is just better to cruise under the radar.

Anyway, back to the story. I've told this one before, in a more compressed form, on the Interplay forum. The posters there took a somewhat dim view on cheaters and asked me how I can be okay with the guy having the same diploma that I have. The answer is really simple: He deserves it. Honestly, if you can fake it well enough to make it through a school that washes out what amounts to 99% of people that apply, then... dammit, that is some impressive bullsh*tting skill and should be properly honored.

TL;DR: There's no reason Usagi couldn't have BS'ed her way through school. I've seen it happen in a much more competitive setting than a regular public junior high school.

@KaineParker I sure will, but I'm not entirely certain how much free time I'll have in the upcoming weeks to sneak an episode or two of either JoJo's or Steven Universe in. I'm currently stuck in a business acceptance test that is about to finish, and unless the other parties involved find something that went wrong on their end it's going to be release time soon, and this one is not going to be pretty.

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Well, let's not get crazy here, . The road to becoming Neo-Queen Serenity is a long one...it's a thousand years into the future, as a matter of fact. Flunking some grades in the 20th century did slow down her ascension by a few hundred years, but she still eventually got there, and that's what matters.

In the show maybe. Manga Usagi becomes pregnant with Chibi-Usa at the age of 22, right around the time when the Crystal Palace is being built and she finally marries Mamoru. So that's some six years after the events of Stars.

[InsaneCommander]

23 hours ago, majestic said:

Go watch X-Files if you haven't already. The show was way ahead of its time, the lead actors are terrific and the writing is often outstanding. It does take a bit to find its footing in the first season, like many other TV shows, but unless you totally hate the supernatural (how or why are you watching anime then?) you should be good. It should also be noted that I loved the X-Files even though I normally can't stand police or detective procedurals.

I'm leaving rewatching it for next year, the 30th anniversary of the show. It was one of my all time favorites and I always wanted to do it and see all the (would be) famous "cameos".

1 hour ago, majestic said:

Anyway, back to the story. I've told this one before, in a more compressed form, on the Interplay forum. The posters there took a somewhat dim view on cheaters and asked me how I can be okay with the guy having the same diploma that I have. The answer is really simple: He deserves it. Honestly, if you can fake it well enough to make it through a school that washes out what amounts to 99% of people that apply, then... dammit, that is some impressive bullsh*tting skill and should be properly honored.

TL;DR: There's no reason Usagi couldn't have BS'ed her way through school. I've seen it happen in a much more competitive setting than a regular public junior high school.

I have to agree with you here. Some students have "different" skills.

As for Usagi, maybe she used her magic pen and changed her grades while looking like the principal.

5 hours ago, majestic said:

Final question for today guys, did you think we'd be sitting here discussing the finer points of Usagi's character growth and how SuperS regresses her character in favor of having more childlike humor (childish at times even) when you saw her getting stuck in a giant tennis ball in episode 14?

In S she is already looking more childish. So it gets worse?

Edited March 7, 2021 by InsaneCommander

[InsaneCommander]

A few more episodes.

 

Spoiler

 

It was nice how Usagi responded friendly to Sailor Uranus' hostility. Normally people would get angry and assume they are enemies.

 

Haruka has already flirted with every girl, but only Ami resisted it. At least if you count offering a ride when Michiru wanted to compete against Ami again swimming. Apparently Usagi recognized Haruka's cologne. Take notice bad guys, you can figure out their secret identities with dogs.

 

Talking about the villains, they definitely seem to be smarter this season. Kaolinite (or  whatever is the redhead's name) stole Yuchiro’s heart while Sailor Mars was doing her punish speech to the train daimon. And then the daimon didn’t waste any time, imobilizing Sailor Mars right after that. This battle was one of the most embarrassing so far, with the daimon even hitting them like a bowling ball. But somehow Uranus and Neptune didn't see them as pathetic this time. They must be growing soft. Well done Sailor moon.

 

 

[majestic]

Whelp, you're blowing through episodes at a record pace here. And yes, it gets worse. Usagi isn't going to be just hilarious and a loveable dum-dum after S, but really annoyingly childish. It's infuriating.

Oh, and we've all seen S here, so you can kind of stop talking about it in spoilers. That was mostly done because Bartimaeus was ahead of KP, and KP was ahead of you. You're good until you hit SuperS.

If you keep up that pace it'll be a photo finish between you and KP. Heh.

[Bartimaeus]

At the rate he's going, he might finish the entire show before I even start SuperS...goodness gracious. I had a month or two headstart at least on the lot of you, but I'm going to be the last to finish by far, .

[InsaneCommander]

I've been watching 5 episodes a day, more or less. I usually skip the opening and the ending, if I've seen it before. That ends up being less than two hours.

But sometimes things get more interesting and I watch more episodes.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

22 minutes ago, majestic said:

Oh, and we've all seen S here, so you can kind of stop talking about it in spoilers. That was mostly done because Bartimaeus was ahead of KP, and KP was ahead of you. You're good until you hit SuperS.

If you keep up that pace it'll be a photo finish between you and KP. Heh.

What if someone else starts watching tho?

I think he'll beat me, I'm having to slow down because I'm too tired after work to watch more than 1 a day.

[majestic]

22 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Well, isn't that convenient?

It indeed is. I have the nagging feeling that it was done so conveniently only for the shock value of Chibi-Usa making Mamoru her, ahem, let's call it lover, in the Black Moon arc, rather than to try and make something meaningful out of it (and Usagi proves that she's a complete numbwit when she accuses Mamoru of wanting Chibi-Usa because he cares about her and she's a girl, Jesus Sailor Moon Crystal Usagi, Jesus H. Christ...).

The 90ies show tried by taking the really creepy parts out and making an insecure, emotionally destabilized Usagi have some conflict with her over Mamoru's affection. It worked some of the time, but they eventually found their footing - only to throw it all away in SuperS, but I refuse to see SuperS as canon. So there.

At any rate, I now have a little more understanding or respect* if you will for that breakup between them in R. It feels forced, has a really silly reason, but it's also there to make the conflicts between Chibi-Usa and Usagi look less like a one-sided crapfest on Usagi's part that makes her really unlikable.

*In a detached, more rational way. Emotionally that scene just wrecked me the first time, forced or not. It still hurt the second time around. Can't help it.

22 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

In regards to the "the original show was on the edge of a knife": it really is crazy how some stuff happens totally as a product of lucky happenstance - or the opposite, completely fails because of it. Pour one out for all the millions of great ideas, whether in entertainment or science or anything else, that people have had that didn't turn out because of some absolute random garbage happening that made it fail or be not even given a chance to happen at all. Sailor Moon made it for the most part, but was effectively the weird amalgamation of ideas, compromises, and redesigns between a pile of different people. Sometimes collaboration and compromises between different creative minds, particularly ones that would otherwise be limited in their particular fields of vision (e.g. Naoko Takeuchi), can be surprisingly better than just one person being given the reins.

From what the wikis tell me that might have been an issue with Sailor Moon Crystal. It was apparently a single writer that came up with the episodes. While that really can lead to a more connected feeling between the episodes, you're right that a complete lack of collaboration can indeed have negative effects as well. Especially when you're adapting sub-par source material with the intention of staying mostly true to it.

The Dream arc movie adaptation apparently has a new writer at the helm. That might help. I'm being too optimistic here again, I guess.

22 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

X-Files: I've seen all of the first season, and a bit of the later seasons (including the not so good 7, 8, and 9 seasons). My mom was a fan...up to a point, so I saw a lot of it. There were some absolutely great episodes that I still have fond memories of...but on the whole, when I sat down and watched the entirety of season 1 some years back, I found that this was the type of show that while it would have good episodes, it would also bore me to death half of the time. I've always said that I experience the negative parts of entertainment a lot more strongly than I enjoy the positive parts, and so I have a very tough time sticking with shows with a more rocky up-and-down nature like that. A little inconsistency is one thing, but that was unfortunately too much for me to stick with.

Good day, sir! Good day!

No, in all seriousness, I can't sit here and tell you that seasons two or three will change your experience. The show becomes really, really good in the second to the fourth season, but it never really stops having these drops in quality every now and then, especially with the conspiracy storyline becoming a complete Kudzu plot.

Season three is probably where it is really at. This is X-Files at the top of its game. The question is though, without the development of the earlier episodes, how much would someone be invested in watching the two characters go about their normal spiel? Hmmm.

[InsaneCommander]

Just now, KaineParker said:

What if someone else starts watching tho?

I think he'll beat me, I'm having to slow down because I'm too tired after work to watch more than 1 a day.

Yes, that is actually why I was hiding it. But this thread has lots of posts daily, so any spoilers will be left behind fast.

[majestic]

5 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

What if someone else starts watching tho?

I think he'll beat me, I'm having to slow down because I'm too tired after work to watch more than 1 a day.

Yeah, okay. There is a minor chance that the other two people (Lexx and Maedhros) who have posted in here might go an check Sailor Moon out. I stand corrected.   

[majestic]

26 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

At the rate he's going, he might finish the entire show before I even start SuperS...goodness gracious. I had a month or two headstart at least on the lot of you, but I'm going to be the last to finish by far, .

It might really be better to not take things in strides here. Time did dull the edge of SuperS for me when I first saw it. It might for you too.

Have to admit that I'm curious what you think of Sailor Stars. I really hope SuperS isn't going to stop your from watching the final season.

edit: look at that, we made the anime topic the only "hot" topic on the WOT board. Not bad.

  

18 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

But sometimes things get more interesting and I watch more episodes.

Huh, that might make you plow through Sailor Moon S even faster. It's practically the only season where the plot actually does become... if not interesting, then at least mildly making you want to see more of it.

Edited March 8, 2021 by majestic