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Hi,

I have been playing some PoE 2 and even though I really like Boeroer's Steel Garrote/Wizard build (thanks Boeroer great build), I feel I am gravitating a lot more towards turn-based combat in RPGs these days (I have recently finished DOS EE and wrote a 130+ page guide if you are interested, coming back to RTwP does not feel right after playing that game). I have more time to plan, I enjoy each character a lot more and I find it less hectic and a lot less clunky. Therefore, I want to complete a PoE 2 turn-based playthrough. There are some things that I would appreciate some help with:

  1. What is a really good wizard or potentially cipher build (hybrids are cool too as long as they have these two classes) that you can beat the game easily on turn-based?
  2. What are some of the differences about turn-based vs RTwP? I heard DEX is not nearly as important, but I am not educated enough about this yet.
  3. Out of curiosity, what is considered to be the ultimate turn based build?
  4. I currently have all the consoles and a good PC. I understand the game is better on PC, but there is something about sitting on my coach and playing on a huge LG CX TV. Is PC version really that much superior to console version? Is console version really that terrible? I know that most people will not have much experience with that here, but I thought I would ask.
  5. I mostly play iron man/trial of iron modes, if that is of any relevance.

Thank you very much for any relevant info. In the end, I will make my own build and get a lot of knowledge after I start playing, I just wanted some stepping stone from which I can start as I am a bit lost now.

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Posted (edited)

Oh I know Boeroer. No worries. You have previously said on numerous occasions that you prefer RTwP and do not have much experience with turn based. It is not a big deal, I will play and see what is up. I was just hoping someone might share some knowledge that would make things a bit easier. Thanks for replying though, you good person 😄

Edit: So do you think it would be too nosy to contact Haplok directly? Or does he see this thread as you added him name? (sorry I have been for a year or two, but I have little experience with how these forums work).

Edited by Samugol
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Sorry, it seems that most people on the forums prefer RTwP, I've been quite hesitant towards turn-based myself as there is no way to change between the two modes and I can see some later battles becoming very tedious in turn-based. I have very little experience with turn-based, so take this with a grain of salt.

1. Cipher: It seems that the general consensus is that cipher runs in to action economy issues in turn-based as they need to attack to generate resources and can't attack if they choose to cast spells, this issue can partly be bypassed by the Psion subclass which generates focus passively. As for single classing, a few of the higher level cipher powers are a lot less useful in turn-based (Time parasite and defensive mindweb even more than usual). An ascendant or beguiler could also work, but is more effective in RTwP.

1. I believe wizard is still very good in turn-based, single classing will work great and martial builds with monk, fighter, or rogue should also be quite alright with free action self-buffing and citzal's lance. Multiclassing either with chanter will give access to strong summons that will make the game significantly easier.

2. Dex and action/recovery speed definetely seems less important in turn-based (and thus heavy armor is better), the exception being casters where high action speed will leave less time where you are vulnerable to interruption. I believe the range for grazes has been expanded quite a lot, so one could keep that in mind for perception and resolve/defense. Free actions are quite powerful, and the black jacket subclass is also better now due to this.

3. I have no idea.

4. Last I heard, the console ports are quite awfully ported. As an extra bonus, the PC version allows for great mods like the Community Patch and Balance Polishing mod if that is your thing.

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I don't actually prefer RTwP in general. It's just so that it was the only mode when Deadfire came out. If Deadfire would have been shipped with Turn Based as main combat mode I would have used that. Usually I prefer TB combat because I'm starting to grow old and everything that induces hectic in games starts to annoy me (like Action RPGs, shooters, platformers... ewww). The pausing obviously helps...
I played countless hours with RTwP and my expertise lies there - there is so much obscure knowledge I gained about RTwP in Deadfire... I'm not motivated enough to do all that again and dive into TB mode now. :)

The main difference between RTwP and TB is everything related to durations and attack/recovery speed. It's true that all the things that makes you faster (DEX, action speed buffs, recovery reductions) have a lot more impact on RtWP than they have in TB. 


Haplok will get a forum notification (usually E-Mail but also the bell icon in the upper right will show a notification) from me tagging him. No need to contact him further. :)  

Edited by Boeroer
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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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Thanks for replying @SArgentus. I have not realized that about ciphers in turn based. I normally prefer wizard and the only reason I consider ciphers is because how I hated managing per rest abilities/spells in PoE, now that is gone in Deadfire, I really want to play a wizard, unless someone makes a really strong argument for a cipher build.

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8 minutes ago, SArgentus said:

Sorry, it seems that most people on the forums prefer RTwP, I've been quite hesitant towards turn-based myself as there is no way to change between the two modes and I can see some later battles becoming very tedious in turn-based.

There is some console command to switch between, it doesn't disable achievements.

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@Boeroerthat is exactly how I feel. I am not THAT old (early 30s) and I can still handle some shooters (I like to play CS GO from time to time), but I absolutely agree with everything you said about turn based. It is a lot more relaxing, I can think about the tactics and I think it is a lot more enjoyable. I replayed PoE numerous times but I always found the combat...hectic, clunky and I often was in a situation where I was not using each character very well due to all the chaos on the screen. It sometimes took me hours to realize that I took some spell or ability and I just completely forgot I even had because of everything that was going on at the same time. So yeah...I totally get your comment and that is why I am looking to get into turn-based, despite some ot its caveats.

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You can somewhat circumvent the action economy problems of ciphers in TB mode with either a Beguiler or a Psion. 
Both don't need to attack with weapons in order to gain focus. A Beguiler gets plenty of focus from casting big AoE deceptions (like Phantom Foes and Secret Horrors) so you can cast those spells non-stop - and the Psion simply gains focus with time (the focus gain scales with Power Level). If you combine a Psion with some other caster class you can always alternate between cipher and non-cipher spells without pausing - which is very nice because there's nearly no casting downtime. The advantage over pure wizard/priest/druid is that you have at least one unlimited resource pool. I played A Troubadour/Psion as pure caster which game me two unlimited resource pools which refill automatically and it was lots of fun. I reckon it works equally well in TB mode. But I can also see a Wizard/Psion working nicely. 

Edited by Boeroer
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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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I'm summoned!

But....

A lot of good info has been posted here during that last 1 hour that... I can't really add that much.

Usually I prefer Turn Based as well. Deadfire is kinda an exception. Too many important mechanics have been... truncated. Dex and attack speed (therefore also weapon speed) has very little importance. Stuff like wearing heavy armor or using slow attack mode stances (like axe Bleeding Cuts, arquebus aimed shots, shield stances and such), which have very serious trade-offs in RTwP, are basically free no-brainers in Turn Based.

Also using 10 Free Action powers, while the enemies stay frozen, waiting for their turn...

So I really prefer RTwP here, the mechanics are way more... intricate, balanced and make more sense.

Really shows how lazy this side project has been. The devs COULD HAVE went for individual rounds based on personal initiative and time cost of each action and have a GREAT TB system on their hands. Instead they sticked to the "1 action per round" paradigm - for some weird reason (except for the FA - again, unlimited for some weird reason).

 

Well, there is one use case where I find TB, well, fun at least (if not balanced at all). That is playing a dedicated caster. Wizard certainly fits the bill, although it could also be a Druid or a Priest. TB action economy is VERY generous for those. Particularly for a Wizard, who has all those Free Action buffs. Ciphers would be much worse, although Boeroer already provided some suggestions how to circumvent this and what builds could work well.

 

Ultimate TB build? Must be some kind of wizard. I like Blood Mages. The fact that Blood Sacrifice is a Free Action is neat. Can buff himself to the max in a single round... and still have all his spell slots back in round 1. Pure would be strong. I played a Spellblade Bloodmage/Assassin multiclass and that was neat too, due to the massive bonuses to Accuracy, PEN and Critical damage he gets from stealth (works for aoe spells). Also despite the seeming frailty, was often in stealth/untargettable before finishing his cast (Shadowing Beyond is a Free Action too), so not that easy to kill in regular fights too.

For nuking I certainly recommend Deltro's Cage helm (and hitting yourself with Chain Lightning, earlier Jolting Touch), its quite the game changer. Even moreso with an Assasination self-crit for a 130% shock lash on your spells. Avoid the rare spell multiplication effects then, though (like from silk shoes.. or Evoker subclass). Self afflicting yourself with 2 of those then... ouch. Died a few times like this.

For a Bloodmage do max your Con, it will be handy. Also Per and high Int. No need to push Might high. And play human, you can control when you're Blooded (which should usually happen on round 1).

Dex plays a minor role. It does reduce the time between you initiating a cast and finishing (so reduces then window when you can be interrupted), but you can still only cast 1 normal spell every round. And enemy Initiative seems to be very close to each other most of the time, with very little variation in most enemy groups (all move one after another, usually), so its of limited help. They will all execute their Standard actions anyway between your start of cast and before you finish your cast. So could be good to start casting AFTER they move. Note you CANNOT change your aoe target in TB mode for some reason. So enemies might (and will) move out of range after you start the cast - unless you start it after their movement.

 

Single attacks are generally a waste of time in TB IMO. Either play a caster OR maybe a riposte specialist (probably with the Community Patch and chance to Riposte on Graze). Normal martials just don't do enough per action IMO. I guess a monk with Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming spamming 5+ attacks per round could still work...

No idea about the console release.

Edited by Haplok
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@Haplok thank you so much for replying. I think I have enough info to give it a shot and try some turn-based experimentation. I do have a few questions in reply to your post.

  1. Do you recommend to lower might so you are not as hurt when you use Blood Sacrifice and control it better? Wouldn't the spell dmg suffer? Just as healing would? (which I imagine is important for a blood mage). How much CON/PER/INT do you recommend?
  2. What do you recommend as a best way to deal with loss of health? You know... so I can manage HP reasonably well.
  3. How about multiclassing? I am pretty set on a wizard (with a blood mage subclass) but should I be a pure wizard or should I experiment with wizard/fighter or wizard/paladin for added survivability and some healing? Which one would be more fun/powerful and suited for trial of iron? And if I do decide on either of those, which fighter/paladin subclasses would supplement the blood mage well?
  4. Any tips concerning talents, spells and difficulty setting? Party composition? Items? Or does it largely not matter too much as long as I make my blood mage reasonably powerful?

Thank you very much once again. I have a much clearer idea about what to do and how to play!

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1. Lower Might will make your spells do a little less damage, but the difference isn't that big. And not all spells deal damage in the first place. I recommend middling Might, something like 10-12 (14 max with Blessing). Basically max Con and Per, what's left into Int. Probably dump Res (although maybe not if playing an Arcane Knight).

2. Other then support from party healers (druid is nice for stacking multiple regenerative aoe effects), level 2 Concelhauts's Corrosive Siphon is absolutely great for a Blood Mage. I was frankly amazed how much health I could leech from a group of enemies. Of course, this is less effective vs singular/tiny groups of tougher foes. Depending on your build, you can also take advantage of some other mechanics/equipment. Steel Garrote Paladin multiclass with Whispers of the Endless Paths (with Offensive Parry enchantment) could also passively leech health from enemies when riposting their attacks.

For my Assassin multiclass I've had great success with (admittedly late game) Engoliero de Espirs estoc, which does aoe Ghost Blades cone strike whenever you kill an enemy (also with spells!) and that can be enchanted to return full damage dealt as health. Since it benefits from weapon enchantment bonuses, sneak attacks, deathblows (and can benefit from Deltro's Cage lash too!), it was a mighty effect on a rogue indeed, often causing whole death cascade chains.

Like here:

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3. Personally my picks would be:

-> Pure Bloodmage for most magic power, including the high level spells (might need more party support then the other options... then again people probably solo the game with one, so...).

-> Spellblade Assassin for the sweet +25 Accuracy, +4 Pen and +50% Crit damage from Stealth (and you should have nearly 50% crit conversion + high Accuracy when attacking from Stealth - so many normal crits too). Also for the safety the stealth brings... and nice combo potential with certain weapons, such as the Engolier de Espirs mentioned above

-> Steel Garrote Arcane Knight for maximum survivability. Extreme Armor Rating, self heals, passive life leech from WotEP Offensive Parry ripostes. 10% Fire lash on spells from Eternal Devotion is nice also.

A fighter multiclass would be better for a "gish" type mage IMO - who buffs and uses his weapons more then spells (due to nice active attack abilities, particularly Clear Out) - but using weapons on a caster is kinda inefficient in TB IMO. Even if that weapon were the summoned Citzal's Lance with its aoe attacks.

4. Difficulty? Well, I played only upscaled PotD. Your mileage may vary, also depending on your build and party composition. Items? Well, if your intention is to use nukes, I strongly recommend getting Deltro's Cage helmet. It's often over 100% increase in damage per spell (at least on an Assassin, after self-crit, slightly less for other classes - also doesn't work quite as well on enemies resistant to shock).

Spells would largely depend on build. If you go for an Assassin build, I strongly recommend the ray spells... and Ninagauth's Teachings grimoire as primary (with very important Ninagauth's Death Ray - indispensable vs high AR enemies and Shadowflame - a paralyzing opener that often might as well end the encounter with the bonus 25 Accuracy from Assassination). The damage of rays is "compressed" in TB into 3 (most of them) ticks, resulting in very high line damage applied 3 times per cast and if you stay our of enemy view cone, the initial blast may not even break your stealth (the 2nd will, but applying +25% ACC and +50% crit damage twice sure is nice). Avoid delayed blast spells and multi-projectile spells as such (they tend to break stealth before doing much). Later Ninagauth's Freezing Pillar (sadly extremly loud and nearly always breaks stealth) and Minoletta's Precisely Piercing Burst (highest damage point blank aoe spell) are the main damage spells.

Also pick nearly ALL Free Action buffs. They are all useful, even if their duration does not seem attractive at first (but it scales with Power Level, so they last pretty long pretty soon). Chilling Fog is  fantastic in the beginning of the game (and stays useful to trigger sneak attacks/Deathblows). Grease is very nice vs some low Reflex enemies, like ettins or trolls, as it effectively stunlocks them (but maybe get another grimoire with that, not really worth the pick long-term).

Shadowing Beyond is key for Free Action stealth mode (but spam Free Action Blood Sacrifice to recover spell slots first, it breaks stealth). Devil of Caroc Breastplate very recommended, as its +1 use of Stealth most of the game. Assassin Slippers on the other hand are extremely difficult to take advantage of due to the short effect, usually expiring before your next cast - not really needed (but sometimes can trigger before the 3rd ray trigger for example). Stack equipment and abilities with +crit chance. Power of Money, eventually 3rd Eye Pendant, use Merciless Gaze, Dirty Fighting, eventually Uncanny Luck (at least with the CP patch, might not be worth it otherwise).

Other builds could focus more on other spells (like multi-missile). I guess buffing would still be potent.

Party its largely up to you. But I've enjoyed the company of:

-> Sorceror (druid/wizard) Fassina - lots of spells for every occasion, including the nice aoe lasting regen effects and huge Armor boosts vs pierce, shock and some other.

-> Herald Pallegina - lots of extra bodies from animated weapons, extra healing/support,+40% damage to enemies in small aoe from Inspiring Beacon - for a duration!, I've also had her use morningstars with modal to debuff enemy Fortitude

Then I've also had Eder as a Riposte swashbuckler (with Tuotilo's Palm shield with modal) and Maya as single target/Interrupt/buff disabling specialist Scout with the Red Hand arquebus with modal (only weapon that fires twice per round in TB!). Takedown Combo with Ishiza was also nice to occasionally deal +100% damage with 1 spell to some enemy (difficult to control when there are multiple aoe pulses firing).

Edited by Haplok
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@Haplok I am speechless. Thank you ever so much. I will make good use of this information. You took your time to write all of it while you did not have to. Time and time again I am amazed of the amazing community here. I generally do not play games in early access or when they are initially released, I consider them incomplete so I always wait until all DLCs and updates are done and there is no more active support of the game, but it is this amazing community that is making me reconsider and jump on the early train so I can be part of it. Once again, thanks my man, it is appreciated.

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  • 2 months later...
On 1/8/2021 at 10:16 AM, Haplok said:

1. Lower Might will make your spells do a little less damage, but the difference isn't that big. And not all spells deal damage in the first place. I recommend middling Might, something like 10-12 (14 max with Blessing). Basically max Con and Per, what's left into Int. Probably dump Res (although maybe not if playing an Arcane Knight).

 

Hi there, iam new to that game :) But maybe not, because since 4 Weeks i read forums and Destroy Youtube to find my class for the first Playtrough.

For the first i will play Turne Based mod on Veteran 

So the Question about that, after i got much trouble with my Barbarian/Cipher and delet him, also to decide what i would play. I will Restart as a Bloodmage/Assassin. Or maybe a Debonier if it will fit in, for charming enemys? Iam a bit Scared of the 15% more damage Assassin will take + the -15 to all defenses Targets lower than 50% health from the Bloodmage penalty :o 

Planned Stats for the Spellbade Mig 14,Con 14, Dex 10, Per 18, Int 17, Res 5 would that be fine for that combo ? I go for a little bit more Might cause of the damage for both classes, or does Bloodsac hit Horrible about that might then ?

For my party i plan: 

Xoti Sc Monk , Tekehu Sc Druid, Vatnir Mc Priest/ Chanter, and Maia or Eder as Swashbuckler...  

Thanks so fare

I hop your able to understand, becauce english is not my native language :)

Edited by Mabrouk
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Bloodmage wants higher Con. To be able to use Blood Sacrifice more, but also to have a bigger health buffer once you finish your round 1 Blood Sacrifices and are Blooded with human bonus of +7 Accuracy and +15% damage. And once Blooded and with human bonus enabled, to survive those 130 damage Chain Lightning self-crits that will trigger Deltro's Cage helmet up to 130% shock lash on your spells.

 

I don't recommend changing the Assassin subclass. The entire point of the build is to cast multiple spells with Assassinate bonus only Assassins get from stealth: +25 Accuracy (great Accuracy also enables frequent crits), +4 PEN (also leads to frequent Overpenetration and another +30% damage), +50% Critical damage.

In Turn Based mode survivability is not a big issue. Since you are mostly stealthed and untargettable during enemy turns. In fact, it is an extremly safe playstyle - in Turn Based mode (just don't use items that can replicate spells cast - as your own Chain Lightnings will kill you). Real Time is another story.

Other Spellblade multiclasses can work also, but their playstyle would be vastly different.

Edited by Haplok
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@HaplokSo i have to restart again 😄 because i go with Pale Elf with my Bloodmage/Assassin. And have to set Con higher.

And for and example that in Turn Based mode the survivability is not a big issues. I got my first Dead direkt at the beginning, where you help the Guys with the carriage on the world map. 

I hade not enought Might so i dropped the carriage and destroyed it, so there were mad 😄  The battle begins and they all had the First turn. The first 2 guys attacked my bloodmage/assassin and now i lay there, dead on the Floor, couldent respond 😮  The MC Assassin Bloodmage is nice i realy like, but the 2 Penaltys from both classes. Brings you down in 2 Hits if you cant Start the Fight to your own Rules i think.  Or would that only  be a problem at the Early game ? But thank you again for the Explain.

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Most fights should start under cover of Stealth. On your conditions, as you wrote. And with tankier characters in front/revealing faster. 

Or with an Assassinate Shadowflame from stealth, that will Paralyze enemies.

Well, there is one surprise encounter when traveling in Neketaka that can be pretty rough, but it can be won and I think it's also avoidable. 

In general getting Shadowing Beyond is the great game-changer, as then you can restealth on demand. 

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