Lasting Empower seems to apply to every Inspirations/Afflictions even if not Empowered

[Elric Galad]

Apparently, lasting Empower applis its +20% duration boost to every Inspirations/Afflictions even if not Empowered.

It is the case in the base version of the game, but the ability is so rarely used that no one ever realized, except for this guy :
https://steamcommunity.com/app/560130/discussions/2/1843566500513031693/

Then, Community Patch tried to change the ability to make it applied to every Empowered Duration, not just Inspirations/Afflications.
@Phenomenum realized there was something wrong but thought it was CP's change fault.

Then I tried overwrote CP change to go back to base version of the game.
But when I tried tweaking the values in order to make the ability relevant I was suprised about what I was.

Since there was mods involved, I'm not 100% sure it is true.
But I'm quite confident this is an actual base game glitch, especially because of the Steam Post. 


If confirmed, I'm probably going to address it in some way. I think the glitch comes from Hard Code, so can't be fixed easily.
I'm probably going to change the ability entirely. It shall be in line with @Boeroer CP icon (Empowered symbol + Sandglass), so I'm leaning toward giving Empowered Action something like +200% Action speed (helps Empower design toward economy, will benefit any class by "grating" a couple of seconds in critical situations) EDIT : Or Skipping Recovery for Empowered Action to avoid Insta-missile salvo becoming a thing.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Ivanfyodorovich]

Action speed is awesome, but overly benefits casters. What if it’s both - action speed and no recovery? The second action following will happen a few seconds faster, but you still have regular casting time on it. 

[Elric Galad]

34 minutes ago, Ivanfyodorovich said:

Action speed is awesome, but overly benefits casters. What if it’s both - action speed and no recovery? The second action following will happen a few seconds faster, but you still have regular casting time on it. 

I don't get it. No recovery allows to have regular casting Time but next action happening few seconds sooner. Action speed affects both casting and recovery phases so it would have worked for casters and martials. Martials have more abilities with low casting Time and normal recovery, so they would benefit more from No Recovery (this is intended).

I fear Maelstrom and Salvo with very reduced casting Time.

But maybe 100% faster casting + no recovery once peut battle would be worth a Talent Point and opens New possibilities for using empower.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Ivanfyodorovich]

Ahh - fair point that the action speed still helps martial recovery -  was incorrectly thinking casting speed. I like the zero recovery & action speed - maybe folks with more experience finding degenerate combos can weigh in on balance. 

[Elric Galad]

4 minutes ago, Ivanfyodorovich said:

Ahh - fair point that the action speed still helps martial recovery -  was incorrectly thinking casting speed. I like the zero recovery & action speed - maybe folks with more experience finding degenerate combos can weigh in on balance. 

I'm dumb. Weyc Wand already has 0 recovery After Empower attacks. Which is close enough for not bringing NEW degenerate Combos. Guess I should go +200% action speed si the 2 won't overlap too much.

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

I'm dumb. Weyc Wand already has 0 recovery After Empower attacks. Which is close enough for not bringing NEW degenerate Combos. Guess I should go +200% action speed si the 2 won't overlap too much.

Ach, it does not work. Action speed buff is only applied after the spell is cast. I have to think about it again.

[Ivanfyodorovich]

It's tough to think of something that can replace such a simple intended functionality as increased duration of effects. 

What if you go about it through another mechanical means - +10 second beneficial effect duration on friendly targets (if it can include the current ability), +25% Hostile Effect duration on enemy targets. It's a broader application since it affects every other buff/debuff involved, so you could tune it in accordance with that, but it achieves similar effect and would be worth picking up. 

[Elric Galad]

7 hours ago, Ivanfyodorovich said:

It's tough to think of something that can replace such a simple intended functionality as increased duration of effects. 

What if you go about it through another mechanical means - +10 second beneficial effect duration on friendly targets (if it can include the current ability), +25% Hostile Effect duration on enemy targets. It's a broader application since it affects every other buff/debuff involved, so you could tune it in accordance with that, but it achieves similar effect and would be worth picking up. 

Well I went with the No Recovery stuff that has the advantage of working and being bug free.

It is not fun to have redundancy between this and Weyc's Wand but on the plus side it ensures that I'm not creating OP combos since the ability already exists. It is also quite relevant for Martials that don't want to use a Wand.

I spent too much time on these Empower Talents compared to how much the whole Empower Mechanic is used. In an ideal World, I think Empower Talents could have provided bonuses lasting until the end of the encounter so using Empower could be more tempting but it is too much change for a "Balance Mod".

Sorry to chose the easy route for this Time.

 

By the way, I wonder if People would start to use unmoded Lasting Empower cause it's quite powerful as it is

Edited November 1, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

Can you not increase INT by 5 temporarily? Basically like the Bellower's PL boost? It would be passive so it would stack with Smart etc. - it would raise durations by 20% but I guess not the AoE because at targeting time you wouldn't have it(?). Maybe it's the same problem though: not being able to apply the INT bonus before the empowered effect takes place. 

An alternative could be to create a separate temporary passive effect called Lasting Empower (that shows up on the char sheet under current effects and besides the portrait) that adds +20% duration. It would get added when using Empower. Same problem again maybe?

Maybe looking at the Bellower's implementation of his PL boost could help?

Another alternative: "Adept Empower" which simply lifts the empowered ability by another 2(?) Power Levels. This would not only benefit duration but also PEN, dmg etc. of course. But it's easy to implement I suppose?

Edited November 1, 2020 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Can you not increase INT by 5 temporarily? Basically like the Bellower's PL boost? It would be passive so it would stack with Smart etc. - it would raise durations by 20% but I guess not the AoE because at targeting time you wouldn't have it(?). Maybe it's the same problem though: not being able to apply the INT bonus before the empowered effect takes place. 

Probably. Or not to all the effects of the spell (Same as Bellower using Eld Nary)

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An alternative could be to create a separate temporary passive effect called Lasting Empower (that shows up on the char sheet under current effects and besides the portrait) that adds +20% duration. It would get added when using Empower. Same problem again maybe?

Most likely abusable using wand of the Weyc and/or Salvation of time.

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Another alternative: "Adept Empower" which simply lifts the empowered ability by another 2(?) Power Levels. This would not only benefit duration but also PEN, dmg etc. of course. But it's easy to implement I suppose?

The issue then is that it won't be in line with your CP Icon

Also this would have disproportionate consequences on Multi-projectiles/Bounce spells.


To be honnest, as I've said above : I have now a clean effect for this passive, even if not in line with the original effect.
Maybe it's not interesting (due to redundancy with Weyc's Wand) but at least it works.
If somebody comes with a coded and tested solution, I'll consider it.

The main issue is that the Empower Mechanic itself is too rarely used to spend more time on it.
It also means that only a few people actually have educated opinion and feedback on it which makes tweaking dubious.
The only thing that could save it IMHO is additional effects lasting for the whole battle as Weyc's Shield provide.
The benefit from re-filling ressource is much better IMHO except in a couple of case (Missile Salvo) that are already too potent to consider buffing the Empower itself.

The reason why I'm thinking about lasting effect (such as + 5Accuracy, +10% damages, no idea about the right values) is that the comparison between refill and empower woud be divided in 4 phases :
1) When you use Empower, Empower is obviously much better.
2) After using it, Empower would be a bit better due to bonus.
3) When ressources have been used, Refill would be much much better for a certain time as long as refilled ressources remain.
4) When even refilled ressources have been used, Empower would be a bit better due to bonus.
That would be more or less balanced IMHO. The advantages of these "phases" is that it ensures that the better use strictly depends on the length of the battle, which is less true with a mere "lasting effect" such as Weyc's Wand lasting +3PL.
But this is a very speculative design that would deviate much from current one. Just tell me if you think this idea worths considering.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

I think I'm going to mode Weyc's Wand into +15% action speed for 20s to avoid overlapping with my new Fast Empower

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The main issue is that the Empower Mechanic itself is too rarely used to spend more time on it.
It also means that only a few people actually have educated opinion and feedback on it which makes tweaking dubious.
The only thing that could save it IMHO is additional effects lasting for the whole battle as Weyc's Shield provide.

To put some values, every talent would give the equivalent of around 4 stat points (EDITED) +5 stat points for the rest of combat, twice as much for the Empowered spell 
1 - Accurate Empower : +10 Accuracy to Empowered Spell, +5 Accuracy for rest of battle
2 - Potent Empower : +30% damages and healing done to Empowered Spell, +15% damages and healing done for rest of battle
3 - "Fast" Empower : Instant Recovery to Empowered Spell (because it works), +15% Action speed for rest of battle
4 - Penetrating Empower : + 2 PEN to Empowered Spell, +1 PEN for rest of battle
(Of course, if the lasting effect applies to the Empowered Spell, I will tweak the values so that the effects is effectively doubled and not tripled)

Sure, it would be a notable self-boost, but it costs many Tier 7 Talents (and Multiclassed only get a total of 3 of them) and alternative is a refill of half of your ressources rounded up (another Missile Salvo, Wall of Many Colors, Phantom, Shadowflames, etc...).
So overall, I don't think it would be THAT strong.
Consider that only few people use these talents, to the point almost no one spotted that Lasting Empower applies to everything...

Edited November 2, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Ivanfyodorovich]

I like this solution! 

[Elric Galad]

3 hours ago, Ivanfyodorovich said:

I like this solution! 

And same with Tier 9 Class Passive :

Chopping Wood : 100% Hit to Crit for Empowered ability, 20% Hit to Crit for rest of battle
Murderous Intent : (100% Hit to Crit /+100% Crit damages) against foes under 50% health for Empowered ability, (20% Hit to Crit /+20% Crit damages) against foes under 50% health for rest of battle
Empowered Strike : +100 Accuracy, +100 PEN for Empowered Ability... hum... this one is enough

The ratio has to be a bit lower but I think it is fine like this.

[thelee]

On 10/31/2020 at 8:27 AM, Elric Galad said:

Apparently, lasting Empower applis its +20% duration boost to every Inspirations/Afflictions even if not Empowered.

wow, good find. i guess it just shows how low on the totem pole this ability was that it went unnoticed at large until now.

 

do you know if this applies to things that aren't abilities? like scrolls, poisons, or bombs? does it show up in the tooltip? 

[Elric Galad]

2 hours ago, thelee said:

wow, good find. i guess it just shows how low on the totem pole this ability was that it went unnoticed at large until now.

Yep, I guess the whole Empower isn't the best thing in their gamedesign (and the refill is a straightforward benefit).

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do you know if this applies to things that aren't abilities? like scrolls, poisons, or bombs? does it show up in the tooltip? 

Not tested, sorry.


Maybe I'll go to +5 stat point equivalent. Better looking numbers, more fun at using Empower  . There's tons of difficulty options after all in case of powercreep (and I'm pretty sure it will be marginal given the current popularity of Empower Talents).

Edited November 2, 2020 by Elric Galad

[DaylenAmell]

Hello, I let my watcher who has Lasting Empower cast Miasma of Dull-Mindedness without empowering it on party members out of combat, and did not produce the bug you described. Are there conditions required for the bug to occur?

[Boeroer]

Miasma of Dull-Mindedness does not cause a "proper" affliction but direct attribute debuffs. Maybe try Arkemyr's Dazzling Lights (Dazed) or Curse of the Blackened Sight (Blind) or something like that.

[DaylenAmell]

10 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Miasma of Dull-Mindedness does not cause a "proper" affliction but direct attribute debuffs. Maybe try Arkemyr's Dazzling Lights (Dazed) or Curse of the Blackened Sight (Blind) or something like that.

This is a bit strange because when the Miasma was empowered it did get the bonus from Lasting Empower as I recall. Anyway I don't think I'll make use of this bug.

Edited August 4, 2021 by DaylenAmell

[Elric Galad]

38 minutes ago, DaylenAmell said:

This is a bit strange because when the Miasma was empowered it did get the bonus from Lasting Empower as I recall. Anyway I don't think I'll make use of this bug.

Maybe you only got the bonus from Empower, as it affects duration.

[DaylenAmell]

6 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Maybe you only got the bonus from Empower, as it affects duration.

Thanks. I think you are right. I forgot that empowering also increases the duration significantly (25% probably). If Lasting Empower affected the empowered Miasma then the Miasma would have even more duration bonus than what I saw, so the duration bonus should be just coming from the power level increase due to the empowering.