Noobie with trouble deciding on a class in Turn Based. Chanter -OR- Cipher?

[Zethren527]

I've finally decided to get this game and I'm really caught between two potential classes. I'd like a little help trying to decide what I should play as on the Turn Based mode.

What I plan on doing:
-Damage Dealer (Dual Pistols AND/OR Daggers for close quarters and an additional damage type when enemies resist piercing)
-Off-Healing AND/OR Debuff (I'm more partial to healing, but if Debuffs are really strong then I'm down for that as well)
-Trying to avoid "Casting Time" spells (mainly because I don't wanna sit around like a bump on a log waiting to cast only to find that my party had already killed everything and I just wasted all my turns for a spell I wasted)

I've heard Ciphers are great damage and have decent Debuffs. They might also fit my preferred aesthetic (love me some purple). I have seen some people mention they are very micro-managy... not sure how deep that goes, but I'd rather not have to keep track of 10 different things just to perform the same output as another class. Also not 100% sure how Focus gain works when dual wielding. Like, is it gain on each hit or just once per action kinda deal?

I've also read some good things about Chanters. Supposedly, they're really good in Deadfire as opposed to Chanters in the original. Supposedly, they're much more of a "set it and forget it" class with passive aura healing and such. Admittedly, that is pretty appealing. However, I don't really want to just be bored sitting around and I'm also nervous the aura will go to waste since I'll be playing a ranged character who only gets into melee when absolutely necessary.

If anyone has any opinions or suggestions I'd love to hear them. Thank you all in advance! :)

 

[Elric Galad]

Cipher Main Character
+
Bring a Chanter Companion along

Chanters were incredibly strong in PoE1 (Edit : not PoE2 of course)  due to how Dragon Trashed melt things around you. But they were quite boring and Dragon Trashed was about 80% of their usefulness.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

I don't know how Ciphers and Chanters work in TB mode but you had lots of fun with a Troubadour/Psion in RTwP mode because you never stop casting: once phrases are depleted you cast with focus - if focus is depleted you cast with phrases again. And both classes start combat with some focus AND phrases so you can cast right away. The "downside" (not really) is that you almost never use any weapons - because you don't need to. If you focus on the shorter casts (some Cipher spells do have short casting times and most offensive Chanter invocations have) I suppose you will have little downtime in TB mode...?

[Zethren527]

Definitely merit in the Cipher MC since I was considering using the Paladin companion (who can multi with Chanter).
Definitely not looking to have the MC multiclass and I'd like to not ALWAYS be casting something. I'd like to have the pistols for RP and aesthetic so never actually using them would nix that. I'm not really looking for power builds. Just looking for something that is enjoyable and fun, but not underpowered.

[Boeroer]

If you want to use your dual pistols frequently then a Cipher makes a bit more sense than a Chanter. Since a Cipher needs to use weapons in order to gain focus for his powers in the first place (if not Beguiler or Psion). 

[asnjas]

What difficulty? 

Normal or lower then who cares because you can make your guy however you want. You dont need efficency so youre free to do whatever.

[evilcat]

What about.... Cipher/Paladin (Kind Wayfer)?

Paladins have lay of hands as heals, and kind wayferer heals with flames of devotion (but more in melee). Flames of Devotion could help loading up focus. Paladins also have some auras and buffs (limited in numbers and variety thou).

MoonMoon Godlike have offhealing in race, but with melee, you need to take damage to trigger that.

You can find npcs of chanter kind: Chanter/Paladin, Chanter/Druid, Chanter/Priest(DLC), Chanter/Barbarian overall some variety.

Cipher is more rare with just Cipher/Barbarian and Cipher/Rogue variants.

If you want to smash with weapons Cipher have more synergy for that.

You can play with high perception, hearth orlan, rapier user, Skald Cipher using primary tenesious grasp, hel hylaf or Sound of his voice. (we paralyze enemies and then crit them). It isnt that great since low level chanter have no weapon related chants (buffs, or spell damage).

Good luck.

[Lampros]

On 10/26/2020 at 10:31 AM, Boeroer said:

I don't know how Ciphers and Chanters work in TB mode but you had lots of fun with a Troubadour/Psion in RTwP mode because you never stop casting: once phrases are depleted you cast with focus - if focus is depleted you cast with phrases again. And both classes start combat with some focus AND phrases so you can cast right away. The "downside" (not really) is that you almost never use any weapons - because you don't need to. If you focus on the shorter casts (some Cipher spells do have short casting times and most offensive Chanter invocations have) I suppose you will have little downtime in TB mode...?

Can you gain Focus with Invocations?

 

On 10/31/2020 at 10:35 AM, evilcat said:

What about.... Cipher/Paladin (Kind Wayfer)?

Paladins have lay of hands as heals, and kind wayferer heals with flames of devotion (but more in melee). Flames of Devotion could help loading up focus. Paladins also have some auras and buffs (limited in numbers and variety thou).

MoonMoon Godlike have offhealing in race, but with melee, you need to take damage to trigger that.

You can find npcs of chanter kind: Chanter/Paladin, Chanter/Druid, Chanter/Priest(DLC), Chanter/Barbarian overall some variety.

Cipher is more rare with just Cipher/Barbarian and Cipher/Rogue variants.

If you want to smash with weapons Cipher have more synergy for that.

You can play with high perception, hearth orlan, rapier user, Skald Cipher using primary tenesious grasp, hel hylaf or Sound of his voice. (we paralyze enemies and then crit them). It isnt that great since low level chanter have no weapon related chants (buffs, or spell damage).

Good luck.

This sounds attractive, but can Paladin generate focus as well as other "DPS" classes such as Ranger, Monk, or Rogue?

[evilcat]

Can always play just cipher without MC. Cipher is level points hungry, when you MC you need to split skill point on 2 classes, which result in some hard choices, and solo class can try more thing in class without passing.

Paladin is preaty good for focus generation since you have flames of devotion and aura of focus. But some other abillities are more defensive in nature which is good for melee. Bleak Walker deal a little more dmg, but Kind Wayfarers have more heals.

Rogue is better for damage, but less defensive. Rogue Trickster has smaller sneak attack, but knows some spells to enable SA or mess with enemy, which is useful for multiclass. Rogue Cipher is very nice combo. There is also NPC with that split and fair stats. (ydwin, not full companion but sidekick)

There is also different kind of cipher: Psion/Wizard MC more ranged, your pistols are more for show off, but you gain focus passivly, and wizards have spellbook with sets of spells know, which is good for MC. But that is an option if swinging weapon is less important.

 

 

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, Lampros said:

Can you gain Focus with Invocations?

No, a Psion gains focus passively: 1 focus point per sec at lvl 1 - and then it scales with Power Level. I have no idea how that's done in TB mode.

So basically you don't gain focus with Invocations but you gain focus while casting (and recovering from) Invocations. And on the other hand you gain phrases while casting Cipher powers. So basically every time you finished with one cast you already gathered enough resources for another one. There's very little downtime and you don't need to use weapons.
 

1 hour ago, Lampros said:

This sounds attractive, but can Paladin generate focus as well as other "DPS" classes such as Ranger, Monk, or Rogue?

As long as the Paladin's using Flames of Devotion with Ring of Focused Flame he can generate focus quite well since the attack rolls will have +20ACC (and maybe even up to +5 Power Level from Otto Starcat as pet, and Magran's Favor and Sun & Moon as dual weapon setup) and get more focus from the burning lash. Bleak Walkers genrate more focus than the other Paladin orders because of the secondary corrosive lash. Paladin/Cipher also can get +2 PEN for FoD attacks with Scion of Flame + Hammering Thoughts.

[Lampros]

39 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

No, a Psion gains focus passively: 1 focus point per sec at lvl 1 - and then it scales with Power Level. I have no idea how that's done in TB mode.

So basically you don't gain focus with Invocations but you gain focus while casting (and recovering from) Invocations. And on the other hand you gain phrases while casting Cipher powers. So basically every time you finished with one cast you already gathered enough resources for another one. There's very little downtime and you don't need to use weapons.
 

As long as the Paladin's using Flames of Devotion with Ring of Focused Flame he can generate focus quite well since the attack rolls will have +20ACC (and maybe even up to +5 Power Level from Otto Starcat as pet, and Magran's Favor and Sun & Moon as dual weapon setup) and get more focus from the burning lash. Bleak Walkers genrate more focus than the other Paladin orders because of the secondary corrosive lash. Paladin/Cipher also can get +2 PEN for FoD attacks with Scion of Flame + Hammering Thoughts.

Got it; I will have to experiment with Psion in turn-based and see how much he recovers.

As for Cipher/Ranger, if the Focus generation is decent, I might pick that combination over Cipher/Ranger I am currently using. Cipher/Ranger does very good DPS once you get Driving Flight, but I want a bit more utility.

One more CIpher question: Is it worth taking the level-up that gives you more max Focus? At least as a Cipher/Ranger, I don't seem have a trouble generating enough Focus; so I feel like I've wasted a level-up.

[Boeroer]

More max focus also gives you a bit more starting focus. So it can mean that you might be able to cast something like Ringleader from stealth with Greater Focus but not without it. But this is an edge case. Geater Focus can be useful for Shared Nightmares (AoE gets +1% size per 1 focus point).

If you feel that you don't need it you most likely really don't need it.

Paladin/Soulblade can alernate nicely between Flames of Devotion and Soul Annihilation. Sun and Moon is a great weapon for FoD (because of the +2 fire Power Level) and also for Soul Annihilation - because the first flail head will apply the focus-fueled raw damage and the second flail head will already generate new focus for you.

A Paladin/Ascendend can use Eternal Devotion to ascend quickly and then cast damaging spells with a +10% burning lash. 

[asnjas]

Jesus, games are like cold pools early in the morning; you need to jump right in and not think.

[Boeroer]

Right.

Except if you're still wearing your Gremlins-Pyjamas.