Turn-based is much harder than I expected!

[Lampros]

So I ran my initial Fellowship of the Rings group for about 8 levels, and I found turn-based to be much harder than I expected - certainly harder than real-time with pause for now. Like most, I went in with the belief that having full control of the combat phase would let me dominate the AI even more. But there were two fundamental aspects of this game's turn-based implementation I had ignored - or I had at least underestimated their impact. First, because every character essentially gets one offensive action per turn, I no longer have a decisive edge in term of action economy. This equalization means in practice the AI now gets more turns per round than I do, because the AI fields more characters on the field. In particular, the insufficient number of attacks from my single target DPS-oriented team meant that I was really struggling to mow down hordes of AI characters than in the past. Conversely, I am taking a lot more damage on my characters than I am used to, because there are more attacks coming in my direction than before - which brings up the second issue. Namely, the widening of the graze range meant that even my tanks have a hard time surviving. For instance, my main tank had a Deflection of over 100, I think, by level 5 or so. But the AI was hardly ever missing him, because of the outrageous graze range.

So I am re-starting and adjusting my approaches a bit. Most fundamentally, I need either a lot of AoE or CC, rather than a lot of single target DPS that I am used to bringing. As a result, I will likely add another Chanter multi-class and bring the number of Chanters to 2; it seems like 2 Chanters rotating their stun AoE per turn can lock down a large portion of the AI horde. I will also likely have to put the heaviest armor possible on all front-liners, because Deflection-based tanking is not really a possibility as far as I can see.

[elohinen]

I'd just keep at it, if I were you. You're almost through the worst of it, since the game has an inverted difficulty* curve. Plus you're struggling more, because your party is all multiclassed, and most multiclasses start coming into their own around level 11 or 13.

I can't remember whether it was lvl 13 or 16, but after that enemies started to really miss Eder (build him as a basic swashbuckler tank), but it was also then that I found out, that the ability Riposted is bugged (just doesn't trigger), but that could just be another bug in the console version. I literally tallied over 100 misses on a notebook, but Eder's riposte never activated, not even once, but that's besides the point I guess. What I'm saying, your custom Unbroken/trickster will eventually start working as intended. Just don't tank his dex completely and don't put the heaviest armor ever on him.

Also, if you turtle up everyone, it's very unlikely that you'll be able to interrupt Wizards from casting Arcane dampener or boss-level enemies (like Neri in BoW and I'd imagine it's even more critical with the megabosses) from buffing themselves immortal.

From my one (almost complete) playthrough in TB, I feel that it's important for buffers, crowd-controllers and tanks to go as soon as possible. Still, turtling is a valid choice all the way to around level 11 or 13, but after that I'd start trying out lighter armor.

Edited October 24, 2020 by elohinen
* talking about the base game, the dlc ramp up the difficulty again

[Lampros]

11 minutes ago, elohinen said:

I'd just keep at it, if I were you. You're almost through the worst of it, since the game has an inverted difficulty* curve. Plus you're struggling more, because your party is all multiclassed, and most multiclasses start coming into their own around level 11 or 13.

I can't remember whether it was lvl 13 or 16, but after that enemies started to really miss Eder (build him as a basic swashbuckler tank), but it was also then that I found out, that the ability Riposted is bugged (just doesn't trigger), but that could just be another bug in the console version. I literally tallied over 100 misses on a notebook, but Eder's riposte never activated, not even once, but that's besides the point I guess. What I'm saying, your custom Unbroken/trickster will eventually start working as intended. Just don't tank his dex completely and don't put the heaviest armor ever on him.

Also, if you turtle up everyone, it's very unlikely that you'll be able to interrupt Wizards from casting Arcane dampener or boss-level enemies (like Neri in BoW and I'd imagine it's even more critical with the megabosses) from buffing themselves immortal.

From my one (almost complete) playthrough in TB, I feel that it's important for buffers, crowd-controllers and tanks to go as soon as possible. Still, turtling is a valid choice all the way to around level 11 or 13, but after that I'd start trying out lighter armor.

Yup. I will keep trying - albeit with a tweaked group or build(s). I agree that I am having difficulties early in part due to the fact that all my characters are multi-classed. But I didn't have this much trouble in real-time with pause though. So part of the issue is that turn-based is harder early on - or at least requires greater adjustments than I anticipated.

Hmm, Riposte being bugged sucks. Perhaps all instant follow-up attacks are bugged in turn-based? Now I am worried regarding whether Swift Flurry will also not activate.

Also, you mentioned that I should not dump Dexterity on my Swashbuckler, as well as that I should not use the heaviest armor. Could you explain? In particular, I had planned on using the heaviest armor on all my front-line, because the damage from thousand grazes really added up. (Edit: Okay, you explained in the last paragraph; and yes, it's a major trade-off decision.)

 

[Boeroer]

He said that because with dumped DEX and heavy armor you will most likely be the last one in the turn order - and then it's hard to interrupt/CC before casters let loose Arcane Dampener etc.. 

Although I don't completely understand why that's a general problem when 90% of fights can be initiated from stealth (with interrupts/CCs like Slicken for example) where your initiative doesn't matter. Of course you should avoid boarding fights then. Maybe I miss something though. 

Edited October 24, 2020 by Boeroer

[elohinen]

15 minutes ago, Lampros said:

Yup. I will keep trying - albeit with a tweaked group or build(s). I agree that I am having difficulties early in part due to the fact that all my characters are multi-classed. But I didn't have this much trouble in real-time with pause though. So part of the issue is that turn-based is harder early on - or at least requires greater adjustments than I anticipated.

Hmm, Riposte being bugged sucks. Perhaps all instant follow-up attacks are bugged in turn-based? Now I am worried regarding whether Swift Flurry will also not activate.

Also, you mentioned that I should not dump Dexterity on my Swashbuckler, as well as that I should not use the heaviest armor. Could you explain? In particular, I had planned on using the heaviest armor on all my front-line, because the damage from thousand grazes really added up. (Edit: Okay, you explained in the last paragraph; and yes, it's a major trade-off decision.)

 

Yeah, the first round is usually the most critical in most fights involving a horde of enemies - like you said it can lead to a death by a thousand cuts even to an otherwise deathless tank if they can't put up their defenses. Also, dunno if you've realized this yet, but escape is a really effective tanking ability in TB - that 50 deflect is really something; and once your priest can cast salvation of time...

Swift flurry, I'm happy to say, is definitely not bugged (again, I'm playing on the ps4, so hopefully riposte works for you) and that is works in tandem with heartbeat drumming as intended. In my playthrough, once Xoti got whispers of the wind (SC monk), she became my uncontested top damage dealer - 6 full attacks with one ability (meaning 12 attack rolls when dual wielding) and swift flurry + heartbeat drumming proccing off all of those, I'd say she does around 15 attacks per one use! Assuming there's enough enemies to bounce between, of course.

Also, I'd go with lightning strikes on your monks 'till you can pick heartbeat drumming and then respec into swift flurry, cuz the lighting lash is better on lower levels.

Finally, I'd say that 2 out the 3 I mentioned - cc, buffer and tank need to go as early as possible, but three is always better. The tank can be in heavy armor and go (among) the last, if they get some armor/defence buff or the crowd-controller can prevent some of the enemies from rushing your meat wall. Sometimes the simplest things can also help - make a custom formation where you put your tank in the very front (in this instance the heavy armor is a must, at least on lower levels) and everyone else in a line all the way back. I've found that sometimes that wee bit of extra distance is all that is takes for the AI to go for the tank instead of going for one's squishies.

 

[Lampros]

33 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

He said that because with dumped DEX and heavy armor you will most likely be the last one in the turn order - and then it's hard to interrupt/CC before casters let loose Arcane Dampener etc.. 

Although I don't completely understand why that's a general problem when 90% of fights can be initiated from stealth (with interrupts/CCs like Slicken for example) where your initiative doesn't matter. Of course you should avoid boarding fights then. Maybe I miss something though. 

I tried this, and the problem is that only the one initiating combat out of stealth gets the extra turn; the other characters go in the normal initiative order. So I tend to get that guy mobbed down early. But perhaps better positioning will mitigate this problem.

12 minutes ago, elohinen said:

Yeah, the first round is usually the most critical in most fights involving a horde of enemies - like you said it can lead to a death by a thousand cuts even to an otherwise deathless tank if they can't put up their defenses. Also, dunno if you've realized this yet, but escape is a really effective tanking ability in TB - that 50 deflect is really something; and once your priest can cast salvation of time...

Swift flurry, I'm happy to say, is definitely not bugged (again, I'm playing on the ps4, so hopefully riposte works for you) and that is works in tandem with heartbeat drumming as intended. In my playthrough, once Xoti got whispers of the wind (SC monk), she became my uncontested top damage dealer - 6 full attacks with one ability (meaning 12 attack rolls when dual wielding) and swift flurry + heartbeat drumming proccing off all of those, I'd say she does around 15 attacks per one use! Assuming there's enough enemies to bounce between, of course.

Also, I'd go with lightning strikes on your monks 'till you can pick heartbeat drumming and then respec into swift flurry, cuz the lighting lash is better on lower levels.

Finally, I'd say that 2 out the 3 I mentioned - cc, buffer and tank need to go as early as possible, but three is always better. The tank can be in heavy armor and go (among) the last, if they get some armor/defence buff or the crowd-controller can prevent some of the enemies from rushing your meat wall. Sometimes the simplest things can also help - make a custom formation where you put your tank in the very front (in this instance the heavy armor is a must, at least on lower levels) and everyone else in a line all the way back. I've found that sometimes that wee bit of extra distance is all that is takes for the AI to go for the tank instead of going for one's squishies.

 

A lot of people say Escape is amazing in turn-based; I did not take it, however, because my understanding was that it breaks Engagement, and the purpose of tanks is to keep Engagement. I know 50 Deflection is huge, but is that worth losing your Engagements? I am not sure.

Awesome news on Swift Flurry!

Yes, I agree that tanks should be among the first to go. So I did give him extra 2 Dexterity over both the front-line and the mid-line melees. But I don't think that is enough unless I put the latter two in the same armor type. Maybe I should give the tank more speed gear...

Edited October 24, 2020 by Lampros

[Lampros]

I guess another possibility - given I am so worried about tank survivability - is to make him Goldpact Paladin/Unbroken instead of Trickster/Unbroken. Then I can put him on lighter armor and still be able to take hits?

[elohinen]

10 minutes ago, Lampros said:

I guess another possibility - given I am so worried about tank survivability - is to make him Goldpact Paladin/Unbroken instead of Trickster/Unbroken. Then I can put him on lighter armor and still be able to take hits?

That could work too, you'd just need other character to cause disengagement from your tank in order to cause those sweet, sweet powered up attacks that Unbroken gets.

Oh and, you can use Escape first, doesn't matter if you move the tank just one pixel or whatever, so long as it activates and then attack, which makes the tank engage nearby enemies in the process.

[Lampros]

8 minutes ago, elohinen said:

That could work too, you'd just need other character to cause disengagement from your tank in order to cause those sweet, sweet powered up attacks that Unbroken gets.

Oh and, you can use Escape first, doesn't matter if you move the tank just one pixel or whatever, so long as it activates and then attack, which makes the tank engage nearby enemies in the process.

Wait, so I can get those engagement attacks on the Unbroken/Trickster automatically?

Thank you about that Escape explanation. I will take it the next run then - if I run Unbroken/Trickster.

[elohinen]

16 minutes ago, Lampros said:

Wait, so I can get those engagement attacks on the Unbroken/Trickster automatically?

Thank you about that Escape explanation. I will take it the next run then - if I run Unbroken/Trickster.

Well, it's not quarenteed always, but on power level 3 (so that's uhh, level 7 for multiclassed I think) tricksters get Rymngrim's Repulsive Visage, which can cause the Terrified affliction - which in turn will cause the enemies to flee, breaking engagement and thus proccing the attacks.

[Lampros]

12 minutes ago, elohinen said:

Well, it's not quarenteed always, but on power level 3 (so that's uhh, level 7 for multiclassed I think) tricksters get Rymngrim's Repulsive Visage, which can cause the Terrified affliction - which in turn will cause the enemies to flee, breaking engagement and thus proccing the attacks.

Ah, ok; I know that one. What other tools and spells will cause enemy disengagement? I didn't use any casters or hybrid casters in PoE 2 except Chanters, so I am really clueless regarding what I can do as a caster - and I am running a ton of them this playthrough!

Edit: I am running Priest multi-class, Chanter multi-class, Druid multi-class, and Cipher multi-class.

Any of these guys have spells that cause enemy disengagement? I'd like to keep Chanter invocations for stuns though.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Lampros

[elohinen]

18 minutes ago, Lampros said:

Ah, ok; I know that one. What other tools and spells will cause enemy disengagement? I didn't use any casters or hybrid casters in PoE 2 except Chanters, so I am really clueless regarding what I can do as a caster - and I am running a ton of them this playthrough!

Edit: I am running Priest multi-class, Chanter multi-class, Druid multi-class, and Cipher multi-class.

Any of these guys have spells that cause enemy disengagement? I'd like to keep Chanter invocations for stuns though.

On the top of my head, I can only say that priest and druids do not have those, but not 100% sure on that either (some subclasses get unique spells after all). Just look it up yourself, but remember it needs to be Terrify specifically (it's the strongest resolve affliction) and if a target has resolve affliction resistance (wild orlans, items, some boss level creatures) or any resolve inspiration, it won't cause Terrify.

I can look up chanter and cipher later today perhaps.

[Lampros]

9 minutes ago, elohinen said:

On the top of my head, I can only say that priest and druids do not have those, but not 100% sure on that either (some subclasses get unique spells after all). Just look it up yourself, but remember it needs to be Terrify specifically (it's the strongest resolve affliction) and if a target has resolve affliction resistance (wild orlans, items, some boss level creatures) or any resolve inspiration, it won't cause Terrify.

I can look up chanter and cipher later today perhaps.

Thanks. Will check in-game myself after lunch, too!

[Haplok]

On PC Riposte was working fine for me. In fact, with the Community Patch, in Turn Based it was much stronger then it ever was in Real Time. One of the very few ways to build an effective martial character for Turn Based.

Conversely, my advice is to use the heaviest armor, use the slowest weapons and slowest modal weapon/shield abilities for maximum impact and protection.

IF you REALLY want, you could designate 1 character as interrupter who could go lighter and try to interrupt important enemy actions. But as I wrote before, I've found that very tricky: to properly interrupt you need to execute the action between enemy start of cast and spell/ability resolve. Well, but you cannot control the turn order, so that you land in the time window after the enemy starts but  before he finishes.

Spell-based hard CC with lasting effects are mostly Cast actions, so again, cannot be pulled off before the enemies charge you. Better to wait untill they've arrived (maybe setting tank in position first) and only then properly aim the aoe CC. 

 

Edited October 24, 2020 by Haplok

[elohinen]

6 hours ago, Lampros said:

Ah, ok; I know that one. What other tools and spells will cause enemy disengagement? I didn't use any casters or hybrid casters in PoE 2 except Chanters, so I am really clueless regarding what I can do as a caster - and I am running a ton of them this playthrough!

Edit: I am running Priest multi-class, Chanter multi-class, Druid multi-class, and Cipher multi-class.

Any of these guys have spells that cause enemy disengagement? I'd like to keep Chanter invocations for stuns though.

I had a look I could only find a few spells that cause Terrify:

Wizards has three, on PL3, PL5 and PL8

Cipher has one, on PL9

Barbarian has two, on PL4 (fury shaper only) and PL7

Dunno if there are any items that grant Terrify. Also dunno if disengagement attacks happen, if the target get pushed, shoved etc via abilities like clear out, force of anguish or Llen's warding staff

58 minutes ago, Haplok said:

On PC Riposte was working fine for me. In fact, with the Community Patch, in Turn Based it was much stronger then it ever was in Real Time. One of the very few ways to build an effective martial character for Turn Based.

Conversely, my advice is to use the heaviest armor, use the slowest weapons and slowest modal weapon/shield abilities for maximum impact and protection.

IF you REALLY want, you could designate 1 character as interrupter who could go lighter and try to interrupt important enemy actions. But as I wrote before, I've found that very tricky: to properly interrupt you need to execute the action between enemy start of cast and spell/ability resolve. Well, but you cannot control the turn order, so that you land in the time window after the enemy starts but  before he finishes.

Spell-based hard CC with lasting effects are mostly Cast actions, so again, cannot be pulled off before the enemies charge you. Better to wait untill they've arrived (maybe setting tank in position first) and only then properly aim the aoe CC. 

 

Yeah, weapon modals can be kept on almost all the time.

A pretty solid opener from stealth is something like tanglefoot + pull of eora and maybe mental binding. This can obviously mitigate the first round rush somewhat.

And you're right, for relentless storm and most of chanter invocations, all the hard ccs, it's better to have the enemy come to you and bundle up first.

Such a lovely game, so many ways to go about things

[Lampros]

1 hour ago, Haplok said:

On PC Riposte was working fine for me. In fact, with the Community Patch, in Turn Based it was much stronger then it ever was in Real Time. One of the very few ways to build an effective martial character for Turn Based.

Conversely, my advice is to use the heaviest armor, use the slowest weapons and slowest modal weapon/shield abilities for maximum impact and protection.

IF you REALLY want, you could designate 1 character as interrupter who could go lighter and try to interrupt important enemy actions. But as I wrote before, I've found that very tricky: to properly interrupt you need to execute the action between enemy start of cast and spell/ability resolve. Well, but you cannot control the turn order, so that you land in the time window after the enemy starts but  before he finishes.

 

Thanks for the confirmation that Riposte does work. As for the Community Patch, I have been thinking about downloading for a while, but I am hesitant for two reasons. First, I am not sure if I like all the changes; and there are a lot of changes. Second, I am now a bit more cautious about modded games, because my last playthrough had a lot of instability just with three mods on (Enhanced User Interface, FG Soulbound Upgrades, and Una's Rarities). Perhaps these issues would have emerged without the mods anyways, but I want to err on the side of caution for now.

29 minutes ago, elohinen said:

I had a look I could only find a few spells that cause Terrify:

Wizards has three, on PL3, PL5 and PL8

Cipher has one, on PL9

Barbarian has two, on PL4 (fury shaper only) and PL7

Dunno if there are any items that grant Terrify. Also dunno if disengagement attacks happen, if the target get pushed, shoved etc via abilities like clear out, force of anguish or Llen's warding staff

Yeah, weapon modals can be kept on almost all the time.

A pretty solid opener from stealth is something like tanglefoot + pull of eora and maybe mental binding. This can obviously mitigate the first round rush somewhat.

And you're right, for relentless storm and most of chanter invocations, all the hard ccs, it's better to have the enemy come to you and bundle up first.

Such a lovely game, so many ways to go about things

I looked up, too, and I was disappointed at the lack of attractive options. It seems like going Wizard is the only viable option, as I do not want to play Barbarian nor a pure Cipher.

Finally, regarding encasing your guys in heaviest armor and then letting the enemy come to you first: For me the operative question is whether I will get hit with a hard CC if I do this. How likely is this scenario?

[Boeroer]

I don't know about any instability issues with the Community Patch.
 

[Haplok]

32 minutes ago, Lampros said:

Finally, regarding encasing your guys in heaviest armor and then letting the enemy come to you first: For me the operative question is whether I will get hit with a hard CC if I do this. How likely is this scenario?

I think most enemies use less hard CC then players. Also, not very likely if you open with like paralysing Shadowflame from stealth. Or well, even reduce the enemy sight range with Chillfog.

[Lampros]

2 minutes ago, Haplok said:

I think most enemies use less hard CC then players. Also, not very likely if you open with like paralysing Shadowflame from stealth. Or well, even reduce the enemy sight range with Chillfog.

No Wizard. Can I do something similar with the current line-up? I have Fighter/Rogue, Fighter/Monk, Priest/Paladin, Druid/Chanter, and Cipher/Ranger.

[elohinen]

11 hours ago, Lampros said:

No Wizard. Can I do something similar with the current line-up? I have Fighter/Rogue, Fighter/Monk, Priest/Paladin, Druid/Chanter, and Cipher/Ranger.

You mean a cc opener from stealth?

Druid can get tanglefoot, wicked briars, overwhelming wave, wall of throrns or embrace of the earth talon. Charm beast and hold beasts too; these two are more situational, but they can completely trivialize fights with 'beast' type enemies.

Cipher could open with mental binding and later with ringleader. Could be that one can't cast these from stealth. To me the game's rather inconsistent with what spells can and can't be used before combat.

Dunno about chanter spells, but since they're also your druid I reckon it doesn't matter.

The rest could just throw stunning bombs I suppose. Later you can get that one cloak (ajamut's stalking cloak?) that makes succesful attacks from stun the opponent. If memory serves, it's in the hoard of the magma dragon.

In general, I've found that one needs to be very precise with the timing of the opener; at times it looks like the game only registers only the very first effect and the rest just go to waste. Again, this could just be another bug on the console version, dunno for sure.

 

[Lampros]

4 hours ago, elohinen said:

You mean a cc opener from stealth?

Druid can get tanglefoot, wicked briars, overwhelming wave, wall of throrns or embrace of the earth talon. Charm beast and hold beasts too; these two are more situational, but they can completely trivialize fights with 'beast' type enemies.

Cipher could open with mental binding and later with ringleader. Could be that one can't cast these from stealth. To me the game's rather inconsistent with what spells can and can't be used before combat.

Dunno about chanter spells, but since they're also your druid I reckon it doesn't matter.

The rest could just throw stunning bombs I suppose. Later you can get that one cloak (ajamut's stalking cloak?) that makes succesful attacks from stun the opponent. If memory serves, it's in the hoard of the magma dragon.

In general, I've found that one needs to be very precise with the timing of the opener; at times it looks like the game only registers only the very first effect and the rest just go to waste. Again, this could just be another bug on the console version, dunno for sure.

 

Thanks; I will try these spells/abilities and see how they work in turn-based context. I am not sure about stun bombs though; I hate spending money on consumables, and bombs seem not the optimal consumable space in my experience. Also, I;ve never used that cloak - but I will be looking out for it in the future. (I guess I am such a stat whore that I neglect gear with effects!)

[Boeroer]

Usually all offensive spells (usually spells that require a hit roll but also auto-hits like Minor Missiles or Sworn Enemy) that don't rely on resources you won't have to out of combat (wounds, focus, phrases) can be cast from stealth. The second point is kind of obvious (can't cast an invocation that costs 5 phrases if you don't have any phrase for example) but maybe that's what causes a bit of confusion when it comes to seeing a general rule.

I personally think that for example Whisper of Treason is an excellent spell to use from stealth in RTwP. You basically place a summon (kind of) right into the ranks of the enemy. It has rel. short range so you need decent stealth in RTwP. Later Ring Leader is just superb for the same reasons.

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by Boeroer

[Haplok]

...Puppet Master - due to range. 

[Lampros]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Usually all offensive spells (usually spells that require a hit roll but also auto-hits like Minor Missiles or Sworn Enemy) that don't rely on resources you won't have to out of combat (wounds, focus, phrases) can be cast from stealth. The second point is kind of obvious (can't cast an invocation that costs 5 phrases if you don't have any phrase for example) but maybe that's what causes a bit of confusion when it comes to seeing a general rule.

I personally think that for example Whisper of Treason is an excellent spell to use from stealth in RTwP. You basically place a summon (kind of) right into the ranks of the enemy. It has rel. short range so you need decent stealth in RTwP. Later Ring Leader is just superb for the same reasons.

 

 

1 hour ago, Haplok said:

...Puppet Master - due to range. 

Is it possible to use relatively advanced spells like Ring Leader and Puppet Master to open a fight? I don't think you have that much Focus. Or is there a Focus consumable?

[Boeroer]

A non-Soulblade Cipher can cast Ring Leader from stealth and out of combat at lvl 18. Level 17 if he takes the passive Greater Focus. 

An Ascendant can reach that point at lvl 14 due to his increased maximum focus. 

Picking Keen Mind doesn't help in this special case (in RTwP at least) because the +10 "starting" focus only gets added once combat starts.

So if your Cipher is supposed to cast opening CC from stealth in order to initiate combat he should be an Ascendant I think.