QUESTION ABOUT BUG(?): Equipping primary weapon removes Devoted buff for Tuotilo's Palm in secondary

[Virtual_Swayy]

Hi,

I'm new to posting here. I just got this game and I'm loving it. I just hit lvl 13 on my first playthrough on veteran. I'd like to use tutiolo's on my brtute for some tankiness + pen buffs to the shield attack, but when I tried I found this bug(?).

Can anyone tell me if I am correct that this is a bug, and if so where to report it? The only bug board I see is archive only.

Thanks!

Virtual_Swayy

 

DESCRIPTION:

  - Tuotilo's Palm benefits from Devoted/Unarmed ONLY if no primary weapon is equipped.

NOTE: My devoted is sabre (multi-class brute), but I'd guess this bug would affect any weapons spec (or multi-class combo) as long as it was devoted.

 

STEPS TO REPRODUCE:

  1)  On a Warrior/Devoted unequip weapons in both primary and secondary.

        1.5)  Observe that devoted gives +2 pen to primary AND to secondary attacks (apparently intended that Devoted buffs innate unarmed spec, as well as your chosen weapons spec).

  2)  now equip ONLY Tuotilo's Palm and leave primary unequipped

       2.5) Observe that devoted gives +2 pen to primary AND to secondary attacks (apparently intended that Devoted buffs Tuotilo's Palm).

  3)  Equip Sabre (or whatever weapon you're devoted to) in primary and leave Tuotilo's in secondary

       3.5) Observe the bug: Devoted no longer buffs Tuotilo's

  4) Move the weapon to secondary, unequip Tuotilo's and leave primary unequipped

       4.5)  Observe that devoted buffs primary and secondary (apparently intended that Devoted can buff unarmed AND weapon, simultaneously)

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2020 by Virtual_Swayy

[Noqn]

Weird, I can't reproduce the bug. What platform are you on?

[Virtual_Swayy]

On 9/4/2020 at 3:32 AM, Noqn said:

Weird, I can't reproduce the bug. What platform are you on?

Windows 10 PC. , but that's not it, because now I understand it a lot better,

RECAP: The goal is to get to 11 pen  on Tuotilo's (7 + 2devoted + 2haymaker) in secondary while wielding your devoted weapon in primary.  This bug prevents that (max 9 pen; 7 + 2devoted, but no haymaker), but not in the way I thought when I posted above. SO...   

 --- UPDATE --->

-------------------------------- TLDR;  -----------------------------------------------------

The bug isn't really about devoted... it's about haymaker...

There are two effects here: 1) The UI display - these Pen bonuses (can) display wrong if you stay in the inventory screen because the game is paused. Easy fix: keep "refreshing" it by leaving inventory to un-pause the game (this was the devoted issue I posted above, no big deal; in combat you always get devoted on the shield) and 2) Tuotilo's modal activation conditions - basically it can benefit from haymaker, but i can't activate haymaker, so unless your primary is also unarmed, haymaker won't activate.

---------------------------- EXPLANATION -----------------------------------------------

THE PAUSED-UI ISSUE (misleading, but not a bug):

In combat Tuotilo's will always (seems to always) get the devoted buff, so the devoted portion of this is more or less irrelevant. It's is just a UI quirk (more an oddity than a bug). Because inventory  pauses the game, but allows you to still make changes that trigger all sorts of checks about how a newly equipped item interacts with other items, passives, modals, etc.  Usually, but not always, instantaneous checks update correctly paused or not (ex. adding might will increase your damage on paused inventory screen instantly), However, some instant checks apparently can fail in some circumstances (which I have no desire to test enough to map out lol). I'm guessing the problematic ones are coded to occur as a sequenced chain of checks that makes sense in normal gameplay/combat, but pause might allow for situations where you can only trigger a portion of the chain, I think the Tuotilo's checks that depend on its weapon type (shield or unarmed) are like this, but a good illustration of checks that ALWAYS fail to update on the inventory screen (which is anything with a cool-down, i.e., all the weapon modals).

 

MODAL STATUSES, TRANSITIONS, TRIGGERS AND PAUSED-UI INTERACTION (working as intended): 

This is not a bug, but you need to understand weapon modal mechanics to understand the Haymaker/Tuotilo's bug explained below).  Weapon modals may  SEEM  to have two possible statuses (the two that show in the log), A) activated & B) deactivated  (based on only one condition: the green button on/off). However, that is not correct, the two things in the log are actually:

•  TWO transitional actions/events, A) Activating, and B) Deactivating, which transition between...
•  THREE possible statuses, 1) Activated, 2) Deactivated, AND  3) Inactive, which aren't all three distinguishable in the log, because...
  • In the log "activated" means only one thing: Event X and Event Y >  transition A)  > to status 1), however...
  • In the log "deactivated" can mean either of two things: (resulting in different statuses), based on which event(s) triggered it...
    •  Event Y and event X (not) >  triggered transition B)  > to status 2), or it could mean...
    •  Event Y(not) >  triggered transition B)   > to status 3).

Two of these statuses (1 & 2) don't rely on ONLY the green button on/off condition (Event Y above), but also a weapon check (event X above). Status 3) deactivated is actually triggered by ONLY the green button, so the status transition trigger conditions are :

• A) Activating to:
  • 1) Activated (Trigger: green button on + weapon equipped);  [X and Y above].
• B) Deactivating to
  • 2) Inactive. (Trigger: green button on + weapon NOT equipped);  [Y  and X(not) above].
  • 3) Deactivated, (Trigger: green button off);  [Y(not) above].

Status 2 & 3 are basically different states of "activation readiness". There are two possible states of activation readiness, one is higher readiness (one trigger condition is already met; a single action activates) and the other is lower readiness  (neither trigger condition is met; two actions required to activate). ALWAYS: 2), Inactive, is high readiness, since it requires green button on. The flip-side of that is that ONLY 3), deactivated, can be low readiness (X(not) + Y(not), since no other state allows green button off. However, 3), deactivated, could ALSO be high readiness, because its sole criteria means it could ALSO be weapon equipped/green button off (X + Y(not)).

This probably seems laborious, but the two transitions are necessary to distinguish from the three statuses because the transitions are different from each other, and trigger events that interact differently with the Paused-UI.

• Transition B), Deactivating:
  • occurs instantly
  • updates correctly whether paused or not.
• Transition A), Activating: 
  • does not occur instantly
  • triggers a very short  cooldown
  • won't update if the game is paused.
  • Backing out of inventory for a second then back in will refresh everything.

THE TUOTILO"S / HAYMAKER MODAL/PRIMARY WEAPON INTERACTION (THE BUG):   If you take any two of these things, they interact simply, and consistently, in the expected way. Assuming green modal buttons are on, take, for example, the simple Haymaker-Primary Interaction; if  primary is unarmed then haymaker active. Or, leaving primary as unarmed for simplicity Toutilo's-Haymaker interaction; easy - Haymakers modal buffs it , and you can even stack the mall shield modal if you want (this leads to proposition 1 below), see screenshot 1).

Uploaded Images

Proposition 2: may seem obvious, but its the SIMULTANEOUSLY  part that is non-obvious, because it could easily be set up so that its a shield when its doing shieldy things, and an unarmed weapon when it's doing weapony things.  Note that we know that a weapon can RECEIVE two modal buffs at once, but we do NOT know if a weapon can ACTIVATE two modal buffs at once (yet). 

SO... THE BUG.... FINALLY...  FIGURE 2 (Below) EXPLAINS....

• A NON-MONK CAN GET 11 PEN ON TUOTILO's, BUT...
• EQUIPPING A WEAPON IN PRIMARY STRIPS HAYMAKER FROM SECONDARY AND DISABLES IT <---- THE BUG ----
• POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS FOR THIS BEHAVIOR (in hopes there is a work-around)

 

{EDIT: THIS VERSION IS FUZZY, SO I POSTED A HIGHER REZ VERSION A COUPLE OF COMMENTS BELOW THIS.}

Edited September 6, 2020 by Virtual_Swayy

[thelee]

15 hours ago, Virtual_Swayy said:

• EQUIPPING A WEAPON IN PRIMARY STRIPS HAYMAKER FROM SECONDARY AND DISABLES IT <---- THE BUG ----

the fact that non-fists can be tagged in such a way that they benefit from fist-related things is such a subtle and rare interaction that it doesnt' surprise me that there's a bug here. interesting, though - i had just assumed by default that haymaker had no effect on tuolito's.

 

edit - good research, but if you want to come off as less of a crazy person i suggest using a font other than comic sans

Edited September 5, 2020 by thelee

[Virtual_Swayy]

51 minutes ago, thelee said:

if you want to come off as less of a crazy person i suggest using a font other than comic sans

LOL!!!

So, I guess you kind of answered one of my nube questions, whether or not I'll find more multi-typed weapons at higher levels? Sounds like they are pretty rare then?

Also, I thought it was subtle too, as I went through the various stages of testing this unique item's interactions...     

 /Rant On      Until....     

I tested proposition 5, and realized that the whole thing had NOTHING to do with any fancy modal stacking rules, unique/unusual weapons, special multi-typed weapon interactions. The whole thing is as simplistically obvious as it gets...     But only AFTER you realize it's actually global, a core game mechanic that can be reproduced by ANY character build, of ANY level, with ANY weapon, their two fists, and their haymaker modal (right on the starting beach even).

I really like this game so far, so it was shocking to realize...

That the reason I didn't initially see the Haymaker issue was caused by a core game mechanic, is that It is a very unexpected  (to put it kindly) design choice. More bluntly, It's actually the stupidest , most overly-broad, unnecessarily restrictive, ham-fistedly clumsy, blatantly bad implementation in the face of obviously apparent better options, that I've ever seen in any game.  It's literally the opposite of subtle!

The unarmed/Haymaker problem I investigated is simply a side-effect of the (bad) implementation of the one-handed accuracy bonus!!! 

A primary-weapon-only bonus shouldn't even be related AT ALL to dual wielding, unarmed weapons/fists/modals, or the secondary slot (except being unused). There are countless easy, low-impact ways to let payers flag their secondary slot as unused,. Give us a clickable little "disable secondary" tab right on top of each set's secondary slot, or make an empty weapon slot be actually empty, and let us toggle to a fist for unarmed. So many easy ways...

You know how you DON'T implement disabling the secondary slot? You DON'T do it  by taking one of the most popular class's (monk) main weapon type (unarmed/fist) and saying "Ok, anyone that wants to get the 1-handed accuracy bonus, disable your secondary slot by putting a monk secondary weapon in it. We've made it so that monks offhand weapon isn't even a weapon anymore. It's more like a key to lock up your secondary slot so we know to enable you accuracy bonus" .  I mean, I couldn't have made this **** up... It's that bizarre.  You DON'T take a weapon type, and make it literally do nothing in the secondary slot other than disable it, so when you put that useless thing in there, the game knows you aren't dual-wielding, and turns on your bonus for your primary weapon.

I mean at least they said "don't worry monks, we threw you a bone. Your secondary weapon can work again, but ONLY when you put both your dukes up, and have a fist in primary also.  If you primary any weapon besides your fist, we turn off your weapon again." Gee thanks guys!  How about next week we make Sabres useless in secondary instead of fists, to spread the love you know? One week soon let's make shields be the thing that disables secondary, players will love getting that accuracy bonus to the primary instead of a working shield!

/Rant Off

Oh well. Screw that shield and haymaker too haha!  I think my brute is going to be able to get by with double devoted sabers lol... I bet I can also find tons of other theory crafting type stuff. That's enough Tuotilo's for now. I been thinking about making a duo team of a riposter (stacking atk on miss) and counterattacker (stack atk on damage), and maybe Tuotilo's can get back in the game with them bc of outward strikes...

Later Hay Maker!

 

P.S. If I got this wrong please let me know. I',m new so its totally believable that I missed something obvious. I would seriously love to be wrong about this, because I really had a couple cool build ideas for a haymaker Tuotilo's and also it just seems like an out of place stain on an otherwise awesome game.

 

[Noqn]

I did not know about this, thanks for the thorough analysis, @Virtual_Swayy!

[Virtual_Swayy]

 

HERE IS A HIGHER RES VERSION OF SLIDE 2 FROM ABOVE.

I DIDN'T REALIZE HOW LOW REZ THE OTHER ONE WAS, SORRY.