Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0

[Elric Galad]

I now realize that an ascendent (non ascended) with CP biting whip generates about 86% focus of a normal cipher (-1 PL on casting though) while doing 15% (20% multiplicative - 10% additive) more damages. 

That feels quite balanced. 

 

Beguiler may actually want Biting Whip for their (rare) weapon attacks when their spell really works poorly. 

 

Soul Blade may see it as a more flexible alternative to soul Annihilation that kind of stacks with it. 

 

I think it's fine or at least can't really be buffed. 

 

Also % focus matters less when those special weapon abilities give you max focus.

Edited February 3 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

7 hours ago, phanhaiminhkun said:

So there is a bug with Blackjacket Rapid Recovery. When I pick up this talent, it gives me both Rapid Recovery and Constant Recovery.

Was it added by console command? 

I see nothing suspicious in the code. 

EDIT : Found it, vanilla game bug.
EDIT EDIT : the issue is within a table called "PT_Fighter_Test". Just for my information, how did you end up in this situation ? I see you're level 20ish at Vilario's Rest, so there's some "cheating" involved. It has never been clear to me when "*_Test" tables are used compared to the non-test labelled class table.

Edited February 3 by Elric Galad

[phanhaiminhkun]

I just added experience with console commands to my character to test some builds. I played around a little bit with no cheating, and I still encountered this bug, so it's probably a game bug.

[Elric Galad]

10 hours ago, phanhaiminhkun said:

I just added experience with console commands to my character to test some builds. I played around a little bit with no cheating, and I still encountered this bug, so it's probably a game bug.

OK there was 2 ways of adressing the issue :

1) Correcting the progression table so picking Rapid Recovery would remove Constant Recovery. This is the cleanest. The issue is that only 1 mod can interact with the progression table (for exemple a  mod changing the Tier of 1 single ability would not work). Which means BPM would not have been incompatible with any of such mod.

2) The ugly one that involved tweaking BJ Rapid Recovery Values so having both Constant and Rapid Recovery active at the same time match the intention for BJ Rapid Recovery. 

 

I tried 1) but it didn't work somehow. So I did 2) and it's not so bad because of the absence of conflict. So in next BPM version, you'll still have both icons, but the overall effect would match the description (4 + 1/5 level with Constant and Rapid Recovery). 

Edited February 3 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

Expect a wide Wild Mind overall for next version.

Previously I put the Shock miscast AoE to Hostile only and divided its damages by 3. This was kind of bare minimum to make the subclass playable without big risk, but not really good either.

 

Wild mind has 20% chance to trigger 11 effects with equal probability. Here are their detail and my proposed changes. The idea is that positive effects shall be better advantages than their (corresponding) drawbacks. So even if random, the benefit would be more obvious. As a Companion subclass, it might be a bit better than average.

- +5 PL for 3s (extended by INT, not PL)

- -3 PL for 3s (extended by INT, not PL)

- +1 Empower Point -> rised to +2 (this is especially aimed to favor SC Wild Mind who can pick BPM Empower Talent more easily)

- -1 Empower Point 

- Foe Random Tier 3 Affliction for 8s vs Will (no direct change but gets +2 Accuracy per PL beyond 0)

- Foe Random Tier 3 Inspiration for 20 -> reduced to 8s

- Push Target

- Echo Spell cast

- Foe set invisible for 15s (extended by INT, not PL) or for next 2 attacks -> Set to 1 attack only (game sometimes consider some attacks to count for 2 anyway - strikes will afflictions and deep wounds sometimes count for 2, so this would give more consistent behavior)

- Give Full focus

- Miscast :

     - 2.5 radius, BPM already made it Hostile only

      - Add Electricity Keyword 7 PEN elecricity damages

      - Empty focus, set to 0.75 base damage per focus lost (vanilla : 1.5 but non-friendly, current 0.5)

      - Added PL Scaling (considered as Tier 0 ability) : +2 Accuracy, +0.5 PEN, %5 Multiplicative damages (a bit more generous than usual)

     => Overall big bad explosion which can turn the tide of a battle if you stay at melee range, have a bit of luck and store a lot of focus.

 

Basically Full Focus, Miscast and Echo Spell cast are quite powerful effects. The rest are more beneficial, but probably slightly annoying.

The thing is each effect has only 20% x1/11 to proc... which makes them a bit difficult to play around. That's why, after all these changes, I propose to set the effect chance to 55%. So each effect has 5% chance to proc. I thing this would make the subclass much more fun to play around, and even a bit powerful.

Note : The probability part shall be included in the nerf/non-buff package cause it could be annoying for players.

Edited February 4 by Elric Galad

[Ivanfyodorovich]

I love that you are revisiting Wild Mind! I did a little draft design on how I would fix it a few weeks ago. This is a great solution that doesn't deviate too much from the current (with the exception of the proc chance). 

I like correcting the rest of the procs, so that the dice are more strongly weighted in the player's favor. Some are still pretty dangerous (Invisibility proc on a big AoE is really hard to work with), but I think you got it right on these. That said, I don't think weighting the effects is enough here. @thelee has made the case well in a few places that what makes a random effect class like this worth choosing is not a stacked deck of random effects, but a consistent benefit that always applies, e.g. extra spell casts. 

Given that, I think just adding a decent passive bonus to Wild Mind would really make it more appealing and balanced. Something as simple as +2 PL with Cipher spells is great. It's clear, always applies, and shows the tradeoff clearly. You are an untrained cipher. Your lack of control and training means that you cast with greater power, but wacky stuff can happen when you do. Other options could be Bonus Max Focus, Focus gain on cast, bonus action speed or reduced recovery with Cipher Spells, passive +hit to crit that increases every second until you crit, or a combination of a few of these.

As to the change to % chance for Wild Surge, I think that might be a little bit too much. Yes, the effects are more balanced/beneficial now, but the community's dislike of the Subclass is largely the randomness more than any particular effect. Increasing the chance to 25% feels fine, given your changes to the procs, but I wouldn't go much more than that. The thing is, even if that means more awesome procs, players are going to have an outsized memory for the bad ones and still dislike the class. If a player sees the advantage and wants to have more procs, they can self-select for that by increasing casting speed, casting lots of lower cost spells, etc. For those that want to minimize it or the effects, cast fewer spells, more single target, etc. 

[Elric Galad]

I wonder about the passive being the cast of miscast AoE based on current focus, but without losing all focus and with obviously lesser values. 

Like your cipher untamed power always damages nearby foes. 

Sounds like a cipher spell version of carnage, maybe appropriate for a witch? 

 

Edit : which probably won't work very well cause spell with multiple "launch" would probably proc it multiple time. 

Edited February 4 by Elric Galad

[Ivanfyodorovich]

2 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

I wonder about the passive being the cast of miscast AoE based on current focus, but without losing all focus and with obviously lesser values. 

Like your cipher untamed power always damages nearby foes. 

I like the idea, but yeah, might be really strong.

What if it was an activated ability? Dump all your focus into a blast, then get +1 PL for the rest of the encounter? 

You could also just make it a Crit effect, which keeps the sense of chance, but makes it more predictable. 

Edit: I just had another thought. You could make the whole Wild Surge effect something you can activate. Get +2PL, chance for Wild Surge. Make it a modal. Then people who really hate random effects can get a bog standard Cipher and still enjoy the dialogue, etc. In that case, I think turning up the % chance would be totally reasonable. 

Edited February 4 by Ivanfyodorovich

[Elric Galad]

There are a tons of ideas there, and I thought about a modal too. Modal shall have a very clear gameplay related intention though, not just random mode / non random mod.

I also thought about a systematic PL increase upon casting but with a random value. Like +1-3 PL. So something random, but not too much, with 100% chance and only positive outcomes. The issue there is that with spell with mutliple attack loops it would proc at least twice and the game mechanics would make it stacks (and Cipher spells really love to have a separate attacks for main target and for AoE) .

Another idea would be to make the miscast AoE 100% chances on empowered attacks, like a desperate measure. Could be fun in addition to regular proc but might overcomplexify the subclass. It would go well with the tweak granting more Empower points than average.

Also I can't technically have more than 1 ability, so it's either passive, active or modals (with possible multiple effects and different proc chances but a single nature). Because technical reasons.

 

But many things are still possible. I just have to keep in mind the low enthusiasm about random negative effects but I always try to keep the original fluff of abilities. 

 

Let me think (but you can still suggest ideas).

[yorname]

On 2/3/2024 at 5:11 PM, Elric Galad said:

Beguiler may actually want Biting Whip for their (rare) weapon attacks when their spell really works poorly. 

 

Soul Blade may see it as a more flexible alternative to soul Annihilation that kind of stacks with it.

Beguiler really needs focus from weapons when enemy numbers is low, e.g. in many boss's case. They aren't much different from vanilla cipher in that situation, and Biting Whip just heavily underperforms as usual.

Even though SA is already not very efficient by damage per focus standard, it is still pretty easy to reach at least 1 focus -> 1 damage.

In this case, let's say a SB with Draining Whip and no other lash deals 200 weapon damage to get 200 focus, and uses SA to deal another 200 raw damage (plus the primary attack)

A SB with Biting Whip in the same time deals 200 weapon damage, 40 raw lash and 120 SA damage.

This is an extreme case because we don't really want to dump focus into SA every time. For every other purpose BW is much worse. Even in this extreme case, BW is still worse than DW. If the cipher has other lashes or has a DPF better than 1:1, the numbers favor DW more.

IMO DW cipher as baseline is fine, I don't mind a slight nerf like down to +80% focus, but BW really needs some buffs to be viable, because it's less flexible by a mile and still strictly worse than DW.

[NotDumbEnough]

19 minutes ago, yorname said:

Beguiler really needs focus from weapons when enemy numbers is low, e.g. in many boss's case. They aren't much different from vanilla cipher in that situation, and Biting Whip just heavily underperforms as usual.

Even though SA is already not very efficient by damage per focus standard, it is still pretty easy to reach at least 1 focus -> 1 damage.

In this case, let's say a SB with Draining Whip and no other lash deals 200 weapon damage to get 200 focus, and uses SA to deal another 200 raw damage (plus the primary attack)

A SB with Biting Whip in the same time deals 200 weapon damage, 40 raw lash and 120 SA damage.

 

This example is too extreme, most characters cannot deal 200 damage in a single blow. Because Soul Annihilation is most efficient at low focus, usually you are using it every other attack, so even in late game you are only going to reasonably deal maybe 60 weapon damage at most in most scenarios. That is roughly 36 vs 60 focus, for SA that is 16.5 vs 22.5 damage in the next hit before PL and damage modifiers. It is a 6 damage difference (before modifiers) on every other attack, whereas for Biting Whip you are dealing 12 damage (after modifiers) from the lash on every attack assuming you always hit for 60. For Draining Whip to keep up in terms of sheer damage you need about +300% damage on your weapon, which is pretty difficult to reach even for a level 20 rogue using the best weapons. Most likely it is somewhere around +200% or +250% bonus. Biting Whip therefore usually deals a small amount more damage, and is less prone to overkill damage for Soul Annihilation, while Draining Whip obviously favors casting spells.

[yorname]

1 hour ago, NotDumbEnough said:

This example is too extreme, most characters cannot deal 200 damage in a single blow. Because Soul Annihilation is most efficient at low focus, usually you are using it every other attack, so even in late game you are only going to reasonably deal maybe 60 weapon damage at most in most scenarios. That is roughly 36 vs 60 focus, for SA that is 16.5 vs 22.5 damage in the next hit before PL and damage modifiers. It is a 6 damage difference (before modifiers) on every other attack, whereas for Biting Whip you are dealing 12 damage (after modifiers) from the lash on every attack assuming you always hit for 60. For Draining Whip to keep up in terms of sheer damage you need about +300% damage on your weapon, which is pretty difficult to reach even for a level 20 rogue using the best weapons. Most likely it is somewhere around +200% or +250% bonus. Biting Whip therefore usually deals a small amount more damage, and is less prone to overkill damage for Soul Annihilation, while Draining Whip obviously favors casting spells.

I think you're skipping too much on multipliers. A MC cipher with 8 PL and 10 MIG, legendary weapon and no other bonuses makes the difference into 6 * 1.7 * 1.8 = 18.36. And it only gets better with every bonus you can add. It's in fact really rare that a cipher only has this few bonuses.

Also before getting to late game it's just worthwhile to waste focus on SA as they already struggle to keep the usual cipher spells.

 

Edit: I forget the lash applies to the weapon part of SA attack, but still:

if we can hit 60 weapon damage without other lash, the bonus would be much more than just 0.6 from legendary, for example with a multiplier of 2.5, it's 6 * 1.7 * 2.5 = 25.5. If they have other lashes, BW also becomes less important.

this pattern also doesn't take up all of the cipher's total combat time. Borrowed Instinct is the bare minimum, and Disintegration is always more efficient for single target. Taking all these casting and focus generating time into account, the attack - SA loop is even less important. A BW cipher will have a much harder time to sustain BI and Disintegration that if they have any advantage with SA at all, the end result is still worse.

Edited February 5 by yorname

[Elric Galad]

I think my analysis is a bit biased by the fact that a non ascended ascendent has just better overall numbers than a normal cipher.

 

It deals about 5% less multiplicative damages while generating 1.5x0.95 time more focus. Even after DW, it is still 1.25x0.95 time more focus. The -1PL really isn't big here. It is intresically better. 

People tend to overlook that and just want to ascend, but in truth it is a very very solid subclass and the penalty is just that you have to manage your periodical focus depletion. 

 

I feel that BW having so much trouble to prove it is the better DPS option is an issue. Soulblade should really want to pick it because it fits their playstyle. 

Maybe 25% raw lash would ease the decision. It also perfectly compensate for 1 point of missing PEN. 

 

And in my experience BI is great but tend to make you loose momentum because it costs time and focus. So I would not count it as strictly mandatory. Especially since BW is a bit about getting a better momentum since you get some benefits one action sooner. 

 

By the way, do CP BW works with weapon active ability such as kitchen stove cone and Amira's wing Writting Wind? 

Edited February 5 by Elric Galad

[yorname]

trying to get it clear from the basics:

set M = (1 + all_weapon_and_damage_bonuses), L = all_other_lashes_ratio, let a PL8 cipher do the alternative attacks with a sabre with average base damage of 16, look at 2 attacks:

DW: 16*M*(1+L) + 16*M*(1+L) + [4*M*(1+L)+7.5]*1.7*M

BW: 16*M*(1.2+L)+ 16*M*(1.2+L) + [2*M*(1.2+L)+7.5]*1.7*M

If we want DW < BW:

32*M*(1+L)+6.8*(1+L)*M^2+12.75*M < 32*M*(1.2+L)+3.4*(1.2+L)*M^2+12.75*M

M < 160/(68+85*L)

 

Every other lash or damage bonus makes BW worse by comparison. To make BW as good as DW, the total damage multiplier can't be higher than ~2.35. Legendary weapon + Soul Whip is already 1.8, if we add just one lash, the difference is unnoticeable. Not to mention we naturally want more damage bonuses on any damage dealer, and it only makes DW better.

Also yes, CP BW works on weapon abilities.

Personally I think BW needs to be a clear winner in this case to compensate for the severe lack of flexibility in all other cases, and 25% lash is far from enough. Maybe even a redesign so it doesn't punish getting more damage bonuses.

[yorname]

If we buff it to 30% raw lash, for a typical cipher with 8 PL, 2.5 multiplier (low for mindstalker, pretty high for others) and no other lashes, the attack + SA combo damage will be BW 163.5 vs DW 154.375. The difference is only 6% and I still would never take it.

suggestion: base 25% raw lash, another 25% if target is affected by shred spell DoTs (if it's possible). Or just bonus attack and/or PEN vs said targets on top of lash. Double focus from DW simply is this impactful.

[Elric Galad]

The other option is to give SW/BW a base focus ratio of 0,625.

Draining whip would only need to be +60% to match the previous value.

Ascendant bonus would be limited to +40%. Note that ascendant would get exactly as much added focus with this value. 0,625x40% = 0,25 (exactly what they get before).

 

Some stuff to check with Beguiler.

 

BT would provide 20% more damage and 25% less focus. (0,625x1,2 = 0,75). Seems fair.

Edited February 5 by Elric Galad

[yorname]

That's a pretty elegant solution. Other lashes will still make the end result favor DW a little bit, but with reasonable amount of lashes it's at least 15% more damage and 70% focus gain, not bad at all.

[Elric Galad]

3 hours ago, yorname said:

trying to get it clear from the basics:

set M = (1 + all_weapon_and_damage_bonuses), L = all_other_lashes_ratio, let a PL8 cipher do the alternative attacks with a sabre with average base damage of 16, look at 2 attacks:

OK

3 hours ago, yorname said:

DW: 16*M*(1+L) + 16*M*(1+L) + [4*M*(1+L)+7.5]*1.7*M

BW: 16*M*(1.2+L)+ 16*M*(1.2+L) + [2*M*(1.2+L)+7.5]*1.7*M

What is this 1.7 ? PL ? PL is 5% per level beyond 1 (or 0 ? not sure which level is soul annhiliation). So it should be 1.35.

Also don't PL multiplicative bonus applies to the physical part of Soul Annihilation as well ? (that's a real question. Note sure but it should)

 

That's just details but thanks you for the maths. 

3 hours ago, yorname said:

If we want DW < BW:

32*M*(1+L)+6.8*(1+L)*M^2+12.75*M < 32*M*(1.2+L)+3.4*(1.2+L)*M^2+12.75*M

M < 160/(68+85*L)

 

[yorname]

Quote

primary_weapon_final_dmg + [10 + (focus - 10) / 4] * [1 + 0.1 * (pl - 1)] * (1 + damage_bonuses + weapon_damage_bonuses)

from here

I think I probably saw PL affecting the weapon part when doing tests earlier today (20.3 roll with a sabre). Not sure as I'm not on computer right now.

Edited February 5 by yorname

[Elric Galad]

54 minutes ago, yorname said:

That's a pretty elegant solution. Other lashes will still make the end result favor DW a little bit, but with reasonable amount of lashes it's at least 15% more damage and 70% focus gain, not bad at all.

Still, such a solution would reduce the gap between both options... which is not ideal for dedicated playstyles.
 

Two considerations :

- the very existence of Soul Annihilation converting focus into damages basically makes Draining Whips provide similar benefits as Biting Whip but with flexibility since you can keep you focus. It is almost a design flaw. 

- 20% raw lash is already a big bonus. It can lead to degenerate situations if made too strong.

 

So my mind is really not set up about these.

[yorname]

Yeah the argument for BW would be "why wouldn't I want more focus". There're so many high tier spells that couldn't fit into a build because focus isn't enough for everything even with DW.

[Elric Galad]

2 hours ago, yorname said:

from here

I think I probably saw PL affecting the weapon part when doing tests earlier today (20.3 roll with a sabre). Not sure as I'm not on computer right now.

Ok, but I suspect it is wrong for this part because I checked the code and it shows standard PL progression. And Standard PL progression is 5% multiplicative per PL above ability level.

(can't check in game now)

[Ivanfyodorovich]

2 hours ago, yorname said:

Yeah the argument for BW would be "why wouldn't I want more focus". There're so many high tier spells that couldn't fit into a build because focus isn't enough for everything even with DW.

I think this is maybe this is the intended use case for Biting Whip (though of course vanilla does a really poor job of this), someone who wants to have a low-micro character (maybe AI coded) that deals higher weapon damage and uses very little focus. Biting Whip + Hammering Thoughts + Borrowed Instinct is 100% makes tacking Cipher onto any martial a huge boost, especially when you want to focus your ability choices on the other class. It's almost certainly suboptimal compared to a build that uses Draining Whip and casts more spells, but the added cost there is the micro to manage the focus and cast those spells. That kind of trade-off seems reasonable. 

I think Mindstalker might be a good example, where you likely want to spend more time using rogue abilities (though, of course you run out of Guile eventually), and pepper in some cipher stuff when you have the focus. In terms of action economy, you don't necessarily want more focus than what Soul Whip gives. 

 

[Elric Galad]

New try for Wild Mind : all following effects

 

 

1) 50% chance of +2 PL for 3s extended by INT on cast (most likely works as (1-50%)² for spell with dual attacks such as Mental Binding)

Roughly equivalent to a wizard specialization, doesn't not work every time but works on all spells.
+2PL 100% chances is a bit strong and not ideal vibe fluff wise. That is still +1 PL on average, with okay variance.

 

2) 20% chances of an additional effect, each with 2% chance

- -2 PL for 3s (extended by INT, reduced by RES not PL) (the +2PL version has 50% chances of happening)

- +2 Empower Point 

- -1 Empower Point 

- Foe Random Tier 3 Affliction for 8s vs Will (+2 Accuracy per PL beyond 0)

- Foe Random Tier 3 Inspiration 8s

- Push Target

- Echo Spell cast

- Foe set invisible for 15s (extended by INT, not PL) until next attack (note that it is on average 3 times less than current)

- Give Full focus

- Miscast :

     - 2.5 radius, Hostile only

      - Electricity Keyword 7 PEN elecricity damages

      - Empty focus, set to 0.75 base damages per focus lost 

      - Added PL Scaling (considered as Tier 0 ability) : +2 Accuracy, +0.5 PEN, %5 Multiplicative damages (a bit more generous scaling than usual)

 

3) Empowered Spell 100% chance of triggering miscast effect (basically Empowered spells are Soul Annihilation in an AoE).

Because I like the Miscast effect.

Edited February 5 by Elric Galad

[Ivanfyodorovich]

I love it. I think it’s a great fix. Curious if it assuages @thelee.