Not sure on how to build a "ripost" tank

[Loog]

Hi !

I'd like to build a "swashbuckler" ripost tank. However, I'm not sure about which subclasses to pick.

For the fighter part, should I go with the unbroken or is the "standard" fighter better for what I am trying to achieve ?

And for the "rogue part": 

• Tricksters for some deflection buff ? With Last Word as a weapon for the +1 engagement slot
• Streetfighter for all the bonuses while flanked ? This means no Kapana Taga for flanking immunity (and thus -10 deflection / - 1 armor)
• Any other suggestion ?

Regarding the equipment I mentioned the weapons, what about the other slots ? Cadhu Scalth seems like an ideal option for the shield.

Thanks !

[draego]

check out the Community Patch. Its make riposte a better skill : Riposte proc chance changed from 30% on being Missed, to 25% on being Missed and 25% on being Grazed

 https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/335

[Boeroer]

One of the nicest Riposte tanks I know is Unbroken/Trickster. Unbroken has nasty disengagement attacks (+10 PEN) and higher AR (when using a shield) and Trickster can terrify with Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage. And of course Trickster has his Mirrored Image which stacks with Vigorous Defense (which leads to very high deflection).

If you have engaged 5 (or so) enemies you can terrify them with Repulsive Visage (or even White Witch Mask) and most of times, when they leave your engagement in horror, they will eat a nasty disengagement attack. Not only nasty because Unbroken's +10 PEN (an maybe Overbearing Guard as well), but also because Trickster can unlock instant Sneak Attack & Deathblows on any engaged enemy with Persistent Distraction (Distracted + Flanked affliction).

If you use a shield and Kapana Taga you can instantly have 4 engagement slots with an Unbroken without any ability investment (no Defender Stance needed). You'll get 5 if you take Persistent Distraction as well. I like to use the Reckless Brigandine in order to get to 6 engagement slots - and that's the max I find to be useful. You will very seldomly be able to engage more than 6 enemies because there's not that much space around you anyway (except when you face really small enemies). If you use that setup you can skip Defender Stance and take Mob Stance instead. Not only will you get a free Attack on killing an enemy but this will make you faster with every enemy you threaten. Same with Reckless Brigandine (quite similar enchantment). Add Entonia Signet Ring for +5 to every defense for every enemy who engages you. 

Than you'll have a rel. fast hitting tank with good staying power who will really prevent any enemy whom he engaged to get any further. At the same time he dishes out repectable damage. Riposte adds to that. If you use a large shield + modal you can also take Adept Evasion and be nearly untouchable by your own party members' AoE spells. You just shrug them off.

If you don't like the Reckless Brigandine or Kapana Taga I would recommend Hold the Line or take Defender's Stance instead of Cleaving/Mob Stance. Cleaving Stance also works on Riposte-kills by the way.

 

Another nice variant of riposte tank involves the Greatsword  Whispers of the Endless Paths with its enchantment Offensive Parry. You can use it as a Rogue/whatever and stack it with Riposte, but it also works very nicely with other classes. For example a Shattered Pillar generates wounds from the Offensive Parry, a Cipher gets focus from it, a Steel Garotte can drain health (as long as the enemies who are attacking suffer from an affliction) and so on.  For example Trickster/Steel Garotte can stack Riposte + Offensive Parry, use Persistant Distraction to distract enemies and heal himself on every RIposte/Parry. A Shattered Pillar/Soulblade can fill his focus and wounds on the fly while casting cipher spells or doing Soul annihilation - just by Riposting/Parrying.  

Edited February 1, 2020 by Boeroer

[djinnxy]

Anyone have a riposte build to share that uses the modded rogue acrobat? I was pleased to see people still discuss the game but at the same time notice not much has come up on new builds since a couple months after release and almost nothing on mod classes. I'm giving the game another go after an extended absence. Also any other ideas from The Class Project mod would be appreciated, but I can take that to a new topic if it comes up.

[Lampros]

On 1/31/2020 at 4:35 PM, Boeroer said:

One of the nicest Riposte tanks I know is Unbroken/Trickster. Unbroken has nasty disengagement attacks (+10 PEN) and higher AR (when using a shield) and Trickster can terrify with Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage. And of course Trickster has his Mirrored Image which stacks with Vigorous Defense (which leads to very high deflection).

If you have engaged 5 (or so) enemies you can terrify them with Repulsive Visage (or even White Witch Mask) and most of times, when they leave your engagement in horror, they will eat a nasty disengagement attack. Not only nasty because Unbroken's +10 PEN (an maybe Overbearing Guard as well), but also because Trickster can unlock instant Sneak Attack & Deathblows on any engaged enemy with Persistent Distraction (Distracted + Flanked affliction).

If you use a shield and Kapana Taga you can instantly have 4 engagement slots with an Unbroken without any ability investment (no Defender Stance needed). You'll get 5 if you take Persistent Distraction as well. I like to use the Reckless Brigandine in order to get to 6 engagement slots - and that's the max I find to be useful. You will very seldomly be able to engage more than 6 enemies because there's not that much space around you anyway (except when you face really small enemies). If you use that setup you can skip Defender Stance and take Mob Stance instead. Not only will you get a free Attack on killing an enemy but this will make you faster with every enemy you threaten. Same with Reckless Brigandine (quite similar enchantment). Add Entonia Signet Ring for +5 to every defense for every enemy who engages you. 

Than you'll have a rel. fast hitting tank with good staying power who will really prevent any enemy whom he engaged to get any further. At the same time he dishes out repectable damage. Riposte adds to that. If you use a large shield + modal you can also take Adept Evasion and be nearly untouchable by your own party members' AoE spells. You just shrug them off.

If you don't like the Reckless Brigandine or Kapana Taga I would recommend Hold the Line or take Defender's Stance instead of Cleaving/Mob Stance. Cleaving Stance also works on Riposte-kills by the way.

 

Another nice variant of riposte tank involves the Greatsword  Whispers of the Endless Paths with its enchantment Offensive Parry. You can use it as a Rogue/whatever and stack it with Riposte, but it also works very nicely with other classes. For example a Shattered Pillar generates wounds from the Offensive Parry, a Cipher gets focus from it, a Steel Garotte can drain health (as long as the enemies who are attacking suffer from an affliction) and so on.  For example Trickster/Steel Garotte can stack Riposte + Offensive Parry, use Persistant Distraction to distract enemies and heal himself on every RIposte/Parry. A Shattered Pillar/Soulblade can fill his focus and wounds on the fly while casting cipher spells or doing Soul annihilation - just by Riposting/Parrying.  

Isn't Devoted also a legitimate option for a Riposte/Disengagement attack tank? In comparison to Unbroken, Devoted will always get +1 Penetration; and I find the effect of one extra armor and one Engagement slot negligible. Meanwhile, the Unbroken sub-class has a worse malus than the Devoted.

[Boeroer]

+1 AR is a very effective bonus when we talk about tanking. -25% damage isn't an additve dmg malus. It goes through double inversion and is actually a lot more impactful as you might guess. 

If we speak about tanking an Unbroken is way better than a Devoted if you use a large shield. 

Devoted's PEN bonus is +2 and that's nice, but actually it's not as impactful as long as you are willing to switch weapons according to enemies' AR values. Most of times the differences between the singular AR values of foes are 2 or higher which means that if a non-Devoted just switched weapons to meet the enemies' lowest AR value he has higher effective PEN than a Devoted who is stuck with his weapon choice (unless the Devoted chose a weapon type that has two or more damage types and hasn't low base PEN - see Morning Star or Pollaxe). At the same time the Unbroken gets +10 PEN on Disengagement Attacks which is just nuts. Combined with Overbearing Guard, Sneak Attack and Deathblows his Disengagement Attacks are really devastating. 

The stride malus of Unbroken/Trickster doesn't matter because he's using the large shield modal anyway and mainly moves with Escape and the Reflex malus isn't so bad because Reflex-based attacks are all AoEs which get softened a ton by the large shield modal. 

On the plus side Unbroken gets +1 engagement in addition to the AR which can be good for a tank. Tanks are not very useful if they can't prevent enemies from reaching the backline.

[thelee]

1 hour ago, Lampros said:

In comparison to Unbroken, Devoted will always get +1 Penetration; and I find the effect of one extra armor and one Engagement slot negligible. Meanwhile, the Unbroken sub-class has a worse malus than the Devoted.

i don't have strong opinions on the different builds, but I just wanted to highlight a couple things - 

- one extra armor can seem insignificant, but it can also be the most important thing in the world. it all depends. you're not going to see much benefit on a cloth-y, but for a heavy armor tank especially on upscaling potd (where PEN/AR is an arms race with you behind), +1 can mean a full 50% damage reduction over not having that +1 (this is the case where you go from -50% PEN to -75% PEN); remember that negative effects aren't additive (edit: as boeroer says). these days when i'm building a character for the puproses of tanking damage, I zealously guard each +1 AR I can find, especially ones that stack.

- the malus isn't that bad because a tank isn't moving around much.

 

edit - BAH ninja'ed by boeroer!

Edited October 19, 2020 by thelee

[Boeroer]

6 minutes ago, thelee said:

edit - BAH ninja'ed by boeroer!

[Lampros]

59 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

+1 AR is a very effective bonus when we talk about tanking. -25% damage isn't an additve dmg malus. It goes through double inversion and is actually a lot more impactful as you might guess. 

If we speak about tanking an Unbroken is way better than a Devoted if you use a large shield. 

Devoted's PEN bonus is +2 and that's nice, but actually it's not as impactful as long as you are willing to switch weapons according to enemies' AR values. Most of times the differences between the singular AR values of foes are 2 or higher which means that if a non-Devoted just switched weapons to meet the enemies' lowest AR value he has higher effective PEN than a Devoted who is stuck with his weapon choice (unless the Devoted chose a weapon type that has two or more damage types and hasn't low base PEN - see Morning Star or Pollaxe). At the same time the Unbroken gets +10 PEN on Disengagement Attacks which is just nuts. Combined with Overbearing Guard, Sneak Attack and Deathblows his Disengagement Attacks are really devastating. 

 

If I use the Gladiator Sword then I will get an extra Penetration; and swords do dual damage type. But I didn't realize that +1 armor matters that much!

55 minutes ago, thelee said:

i don't have strong opinions on the different builds, but I just wanted to highlight a couple things - 

- one extra armor can seem insignificant, but it can also be the most important thing in the world. it all depends. you're not going to see much benefit on a cloth-y, but for a heavy armor tank especially on upscaling potd (where PEN/AR is an arms race with you behind), +1 can mean a full 50% damage reduction over not having that +1 (this is the case where you go from -50% PEN to -75% PEN); remember that negative effects aren't additive (edit: as boeroer says). these days when i'm building a character for the puproses of tanking damage, I zealously guard each +1 AR I can find, especially ones that stack.

Also - and this question goes to Boerer, too - how much does armor matter when my main tank will have so much Deflection? I would be pushing close to 200 with Mirror Image, I'd imagine as a Fighter/Trickster.

Edited October 19, 2020 by Lampros

[Boeroer]

...and then you get hit by Arcane Dampener. 

[Lampros]

9 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

...and then you get hit by Arcane Dampener. 

Still almost 170

I should really stop theory-crafting all day and start playing - especially given that I've resolved my biggest party choice dilemma of whether to go with 2 front-line DPS and no tank or use the conventional 1 front-line DPS and 1 tank set-up.

[Boeroer]

1 minute ago, Lampros said:

Still almost 170

I should really stop theory-crafting all day and start playing - especially given that I've resolved my biggest party choice dilemma of whether to go with 2 front-line DPS and no tank or use the conventional 1 front-line DPS and 1 tank set-up.

150 because not only Mirrored Images gets dispelled but also Refreshing Defense. 

Also you will not only get hit by stuff that targets deflection - but also abilites that target other defenses, fortitude mainly. Especially in the late game. 

 

 

[thelee]

59 minutes ago, Lampros said:

Also - and this question goes to Boerer, too - how much does armor matter when my main tank will have so much Deflection? I would be pushing close to 200 with Mirror Image, I'd imagine as a Fighter/Trickster.

most damage spells don't hit deflection. high AR would basically let you shrug most of that off.

[Lampros]

14 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

150 because not only Mirrored Images gets dispelled but also Refreshing Defense. 

Also you will not only get hit by stuff that targets deflection - but also abilites that target other defenses, fortitude mainly. Especially in the late game. 

 

 

Damn, I didn't realize Refreshing Defense gets dispelled, too.

Thanks for the bit about Fortitude; I will increase that, too. Damn, it almost seems as the ideal tank requires the MC with Berath's Blessings, but I don't want to play a tank as the MC

7 minutes ago, thelee said:

most damage spells don't hit deflection. high AR would basically let you shrug most of that off.

Hmm, so I may have to give up my Casità Samelia's Legacy?

[thelee]

1 hour ago, Lampros said:

Hmm, so I may have to give up my Casità Samelia's Legacy?

not exactly, though it does require more work than heavy armor. spell PEN doesn't get as high as weapon PEN. Some arbitrary buffing might be good enough. It's just that even with maxed out deflection, armor can still matter.