Kind Wayfarers FoD heal buff

[Ancelor]

I see the heal amount is a set 14. In game it is affected by might and possibly by PL (haven't confirmed that though).

In any case even with PL increase it seems to me that with the multiplicative formula the amount of heal will be insignificant in late game.

Now I have a mod in place that can add 1 or 2 HP per level in order to scale more meaningfully.

Has anyone played a Kind Wayfarer late game to confirm if I should use this mod or if it's better to leave it as is balance wise?

 

Thanks

[Boeroer]

Its base healing of 14 does scale with Power Level. Every PL adds 5% base healing.

It also scales with Might (as usual 3% per pount above 10), but additively. 

Other stuff that boosts it aditively: Practised Healer (10%), Physiker's Belt (10%), Footprints of  Ahu Taka(10% ), Bone Setter's Torc (10%), Prissy Pet (+15%), another fiting pet on Edér (5%).

When you are dual wielding it fires twice (base of 28 then basically). You have at least graze the enemy though or it will not trigger.

Let's say you have 15 MIG (+15%), have 10 PL and the above bonuses then it can do 14base*1.5PowerLevel*(1self+0.15Might+0.1PracticedHealer+0.1PhysikersBelt+0.1AhuTaka+0.1BoneSetters+0.15Prissy+0.05otherPet) = 36.75 * 2 (Full Attack) = ~74 in a fairly big AoE. In therory...

Edit: the following I typed because I overlooked that my party was under the effect of fresh fruit (+25% healing received):

Interestingly the combat log gives you these numbers if you unfold the entry. For example I just did it with PL 10 at 15 MIG and those items and the combat log said that I did 36.5 (I guess some rounding) healing two times. BUT on top of those two entries it says 46...? And also over the head of my party member that I healed it says 46. Huh? I checked the gained health directly on the target and it did indead heal for the higher amount. I tried to alter the MIG of the party member and that doesn't do anything. CON: same. RES: nope. Dual wielding is also not causing this. Power Level on taraget: no effect. Also it's the same on all my party members so I doub't it's any item on them. There is some other hidden bonus (most likely a bit glitchy which would explain the dubiuos combat log entries). And it's quite big. It seems to be a multiplicative 25% increase that always applies. 

Could be Community Patch but I don't recall any changes to White Flames...?

So yeah basically tl;dr: you can calculate it like 14Base * 1.25SecretBonus (fresh fruit) * (1+PowerLevel*0.05)PowerLevelBonus * (1+ additive_bonus_1 + additive_bonus_2...)additiveBonus * 2FullAttack.

edit: So, fresh fruit (and most likely all healing received mods are multiplicative).

also edit: the formula is
14Base * (1+PowerLevel*0.05)PowerLevelBonus * (1+ additive_bonus_1 + additive_bonus_2...)additiveBonus * 2FullAttack * (1+healing_received_mod).

I think it's good enough given that it's a AoE and it is just an attachment to a quite damaging attack. It is already better than most restoration spells - especially if you factor in the damage and cost of only 1 Zeal (you have to take into account that you might miss the FoD strike though). 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Boeroer

[3x0du5]

Anything that involves enhancing FoD is really good because paladins can spam 15(twice as much when dual-wield) or more FoD per encounter and there arent that many enmies immune to fire but plenty of them are very vulnerable to fire

Edited September 20, 2019 by 3x0du5

[Ancelor]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Its base healing of 14 does scale with Power Level. Every PL adds 5% base healing.

It also scales with Might (as usual 3% per pount above 10), but additively. 

Other stuff that boosts it aditively: Practised Healer (10%), Physiker's Belt (10%), Footprints of  Ahu Taka(10% ), Bone Setter's Torc (10%), Prissy Pet (+15%), another fiting pet on Edér (5%).

When you are dual wielding it fires twice (base of 28 then basically). You have at least graze the enemy though or it will not trigger.

Let's say you have 15 MIG (+15%), have 10 PL and the above bonuses then it can do 14base*1.5PowerLevel*(1self+0.15Might+0.1PracticedHealer+0.1PhysikersBelt+0.1AhuTaka+0.1BoneSetters+0.15Prissy+0.05otherPet) = 36.75 * 2 (Full Attack) = ~74 in a fairly big AoE. In therory...

Interestingly the combat log gives you these numbers if you unfold the entry. For example I just did it with PL 10 at 15 MIG and those items and the combat log said that I did 36.5 (I guess some rounding) healing two times. BUT on top of those two entries it says 46...? And also over the head of my party member that I healed it says 46. Huh? I checked the gained health directly on the target and it did indead heal for the higher amount. I tried to alter the MIG of the party member and that doesn't do anything. CON: same. RES: nope. Dual wielding is also not causing this. Power Level on taraget: no effect. Also it's the same on all my party members so I doub't it's any item on them. There is some other hidden bonus (most likely a bit glitchy which would explain the dubiuos combat log entries). And it's quite big. It seems to be a multiplicative 25% increase that always applies. 

Could be Community Patch but I don't recall any changes to White Flames...?

So yeah basically tl;dr: you can calculate it like 14Base * 1.25SecretBonus * (1+PowerLevel*0.05)PowerLevelBonus * (1+ additive_bonus_1 + additive_bonus_2...)additiveBonus * 2FullAttack. 

I think it's good enough given that it's a AoE and it is just an attachment to a quite damaging attack. It is already better than most restoration spells - especially if you factor in the damage and cost of only 1 Zeal (you have to take into account that you might miss the FoD strike though). 

 

 

seems good. even though I use a shield and I multiclass (hence max PL will be 7).

Maybe I'll need to find a bashing shield

[Boeroer]

For White Flames a bashing shield makes sense. Magran's Blessing can be looted without any mechanics skill in Sacred Stairs. 

Other sources of Power Level also work: Acute (from Fighter's Tactical Barrage or Priest's Litany), Wellspring of Life (Nature Godlike), Power Surge from Stone of Power (if you have two you can use Power Surge 1/encounter - because if you stack them in the stash they will reset their 1/rest use from 0 to 1) and of course consumables (which I tend to ignore most of the time).

And because White Flames scales with the Power Bonus that Flames of Devotions has you can use all kinds of Power Level boosts for fire: Magran's Blessing (+2), Sun and Moon (+2 on daytime), Otto Starcat (or the other pet: +1). So you could raise your White Flames' PL by +5 with fire-PL gear alone. That's 4.375 more base healing alone (if I used my calculator correctly). 

So maybe Magran's Blessing + Magran's Favor would be a cool combo. Sounds like a Kind Wayfarer with a knack for Magran.

 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Boeroer

[Wotcha]

Was there any food buff at play?  I often use Fresh Fruit as my default food when not going for a specific food buff, and it grants +25% healing received.

[Boeroer]

Ahhhh! Yes. I knew I overlooked something. All my party had eaten fresh fruit. Thanks.

So scrap the 25% bonus from the calculation please.

Interesing though that the +25% modifier from "Healing received" is multiplicative. I didn't know that - and it's good to know.

[Wotcha]

Wouldn't surprise me if all +%healing received buffs were multiplicative (or, rather, multiplicative with +%healing done, but additive with +%healing received), because it's very likely it gets applied at a subsequent step after the amount healed is calculated, i.e. at the later step when all the targets are being healed in turn, and the code has a chance to apply the +%healing received bonus.

One of my mod ideas was to give Constitution a +healing received bonus, because we all know that Con is pretty crap at its job of making you tougher.  The size of your health pool is almost irrelevant! What IS relevant is your resistance to damage (either via straight %damage reduction, AR, or defenses), and the amount of healing that the party can deliver to you.  So if Con were to grant +3% healing received per point above 10, I think that would be plenty to make it competitive as a statistic again!  Although I'm not sure if "again" is the right word, because I don't know if it has ever been worthwhile as a statistic in Deadfire.

Alas, unless I can think of a clever way around the problem, it can only be done as a modification to the CSharp-Assembly.dll- I've looked in the code and have a reasonable idea what to do, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort.  It might be possible to implement a permanent invisible buff on everybody, which calculates a +%healing buff based on the target's Constitution, but I don't know if that could be made properly dynamic with afflictions/buffs/etc.  I guess I'll just throw it on the list of mod ideas, but I really want to get my cipher mod out the door without getting distracted.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Wotcha
Clarify add/mult behavior for healing received

[Ancelor]

wasn't there an initial discussion of adding a +% to healing received to one of the attributes anyway?

[Wotcha]

3 minutes ago, Ancelor said:

wasn't there an initial discussion of adding a +% to healing received to one of the attributes anyway?

I wasn't following back then, but the proposal may have foundered if they looked at the same stuff I did and came to the same conclusion that it was fairly difficult to implement.  I have distant vague plans of getting something similar to the Community Patch going, but for the more difficult-to-implement stuff that can only be done on the CSharp side.  There are some real drawbacks to a CSharp-based thing.  I can do those kinds of changes in-place on my own executable by using development tools to edit and recompile the dll (and I've done so, for instance, to allow hiring adventurers equal to the Watcher's level instead of maxing out one level lower), but I would have to figure out how to go about packaging something like that up for release.  I know it's POSSIBLE to do, because there are a couple of mods which do it, but the process is SUPER hacky and fragile, and multiple such mods can easily conflict with each other when attempting to patch their changes in.  So if it's going to be done, it should be done with a good, solid set of reasonable changes, possibly with exported hooks to allow conventional override mods to enable/disable individual things because otherwise it would be an all-or-nothing deal.

The three things off the top of my head that I am certain (or almost certain) would require CSharp changes:

- max hired adventurer level

- altering max phrase count for Chanters to anything other than "most expensive phrase ability" (like, say, exporting a hook that allows a passive ability to be created which gives the chanter +2 to his max phrase count)

- +%healing received per point of Constitution

I'm sure there are lots of such things.  I had an idea for a cipher spell that caused the enemy target to have +X% incoming miss-to-graze, graze-to-hit, and hit-to-crit, but that's not currently implementable! There is only a tag for enemy hit-to-crit, which is used by the Druid Entropy ability, but the other kinds of hit conversion types are not implemented.  Might be possible to implement and export tags that do that, and then override mods could use those tags, but I haven't done the research yet.

[3x0du5]

Full attack backstabs could be added to that list too maybe

[Elric Galad]

26 minutes ago, 3x0du5 said:

Full attack backstabs could be added to that list too maybe

You can play a SC Rogue and build it around Vanishing Strike (which is basically the best way to play SC Rogue).

Also, Community Patch makes Backstab additional damages, so it provides the same benefit with a dagger or with an arquebus (which fits better thematically). Full Attacks don't provide more damages (except for Vanishing Strikes) but don't provide less backstab damages than 2-hander with this modification. 

[3x0du5]

9 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

You can play a SC Rogue and build it around Vanishing Strike (which is basically the best way to play SC Rogue).

Also, Community Patch makes Backstab additional damages, so it provides the same benefit with a dagger or with an arquebus (which fits better thematically). Full Attacks don't provide more damages (except for Vanishing Strikes) but don't provide less backstab damages than 2-hander with this modification. 

Ha ! Thats exactly what I'm running now SC rogue with community patch , but I would not mind reverting backstab to +100%+some scaling and works on Full attacks for all the builds that don't get access to vanishing strikes, maybe even with a ranged bonus implemented into the same passive just with less of a damage buff (50%+scaling for ranged attacks out of Invis maybe). Problem with vanishing strikes builds that you kinda have to focus all build on that one skill and dont get to use other skills almost at all once u got vanishing strikes simple because its always better to spend that guile on another vanishing strike 

[Boeroer]

The CP Backstab makes it independent from the used weapon which was done to motivate Backstab builds with light (even one handed) weapons. If you make Full Attacks with +100% dmg applicable everybody would only use those. I think the current solution is best all in all. ALso because it scales now (which 100% additive in vanilla game don't). 

[3x0du5]

Then all we need is a ranged equivalent with reduced damage or something among those lines, I played with a mod that makes Backstab +150(I think its old value before nerfs) and adds 20m range , as long as u dont abuse it with arquebus its kinda nice to have on some RP builds for example scout with hunting bow using it 3 times per encounter did not feel broken at all. 

 

but when used with arquebus....

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

yeh game did not acknowledge that he is dead at all neither did his guild even tho I shot him infront of them

Edited September 20, 2019 by 3x0du5

[Elric Galad]

16 hours ago, 3x0du5 said:

Ha ! Thats exactly what I'm running now SC rogue with community patch , but I would not mind reverting backstab to +100%+some scaling and works on Full attacks for all the builds that don't get access to vanishing strikes, maybe even with a ranged bonus implemented into the same passive just with less of a damage buff (50%+scaling for ranged attacks out of Invis maybe). Problem with vanishing strikes builds that you kinda have to focus all build on that one skill and dont get to use other skills almost at all once u got vanishing strikes simple because its always better to spend that guile on another vanishing strike 

That is also because most of Rogue active abilities aren't really worth their guile. Even as a MC you spam Crippling and Blinding strike most of the time in my experience. Maybe MC assassin spam Smoke Veil and Shadowing Beyond too but SC should indeed spam Vanishing instead.

Gambit is tempting but require even more dedication. I plan to add a +2 Guile Bracer un my mod to help it a bit.

Community patch already decreased Withering Strike Cost.

Smoke Veil, Shadowing Beyond and Shadow Step should cost 1 loss Guile each. This should diversify Rogue Builds.

[3x0du5]

These are all very nice ideas if you ever put them in a mod would gladly use it, smoke veil should not have such long recovery now its kinda dumb skill you turn invisible and stand still because recovery...

i guess problem with gambit is if you use vanishing strikes and then gambit u can only have 3 guile left which is kinda low for gambit to have good effect maybe with permanent brilliant it can be usable 

Also blinding strike and its upgrades because it costs 2 guile i almost never use it unless i need to add permanent dot on some big enemy, which can also be done with Arterial Strike and some moving arround so yeh 2 guile = not using this enough 

thats why if i dont play sc rogue i go for holy slayers then i can use rogue resources for invis and debuffing and paladin resources for spamming fod which makes whole rogue experience much better

Edited September 21, 2019 by 3x0du5

[Elric Galad]

I get your point about Smoke Veil but the No Recovery part contributes justifying Shadowing Beyond increased cost.

You have to think about Smoke Veil as an excellent and cheap panic button with a positive interaction with Backstab while Shadowing Beyond is meant to be used more offensively thanks to its teleporting and no Recovery effects.

Edit : Even if Blinding Strike is meant to be used more rarely, both its upgrades are extremely valuable against high prio target. Gouging Strike is even the Most Valuable ability against a certain Mega Boss. Blinding is a fairly good debuff even when decreased to Disoriented, and help Deathblow with ranged weapon and against Perception resistant foes.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Elric Galad

[3x0du5]

36 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

I get your point about Smoke Veil but the No Recovery part contributes justifying Shadowing Beyond increased cost.

You have to think about Smoke Veil as an excellent and cheap panic button with a positive interaction with Backstab while Shadowing Beyond is meant to be used more offensively thanks to its teleporting and no Recovery effects.

Well Shadowing Beyond for 1 more guile gives No Recovery,Dash, Deflection buff compared to smoke veil , I actually think no recovery on smoke veil would make these skills equally good because then shadowing beyond would add Escape effect for that one additional guile and longer Invis as a bonus not that length of Invis matters here but still 

 

Also I just realised that Shadow Step exists  made me giggle , shadow step should just cost 1 guile and replace escape like you spend 1 ability point to add paralyse on to your escape makes sense, now you spend 1 ability point and increase its cost by 2 guile to add paralyse effect ... 

Edited September 21, 2019 by 3x0du5

[Elric Galad]

11 hours ago, 3x0du5 said:

Well Shadowing Beyond for 1 more guile gives No Recovery,Dash, Deflection buff compared to smoke veil , I actually think no recovery on smoke veil would make these skills equally good because then shadowing beyond would add Escape effect for that one additional guile and longer Invis as a bonus not that length of Invis matters here but still 

 

Also I just realised that Shadow Step exists  made me giggle , shadow step should just cost 1 guile and replace escape like you spend 1 ability point to add paralyse on to your escape makes sense, now you spend 1 ability point and increase its cost by 2 guile to add paralyse effect ... 

Well, the deflection buff is short lived and the dash part situational.
0 recovery Smoke Veil would lead to abuse with Assassin/Caster. Current recovery is not very long either.
I would not include it in a mod, but changing recovery of a single ability is quite easy (though tricky, recovery delay are coded as an ID, not a number, so you have to copy/paste the recovery ID of another ability). So if you want to do it, go wild ^^

Other Paralysis abilities (Garrote and Stunning Blow) currently cost 2. So I would align Shadow Step with them. Sure you don't get an attack or additional damages, but you have a Dash and Deflection instead. Also, Shadow Step upgrade also add a bit of AoE (SC only), so 1 Guile would feel too strong.
Once more, it's quite easy to mod.

Just to say, I'm trying to avoid Power Creep in my mod plan. I'm even planning a couple of NERFS, which might feel weird but I would include them in a separate package anyway.

[3x0du5]

The way i see it if shadow step and shadowing beyond costs the same does not matter if its 3 2 or 4 guile, shadow step will never be picked, maybe lowering shadow step to 1 is too much but then something else should be changed like paralyze duration for example or maybe it could add another affliction with paralyze,anyway whole paralyze thing just feels out ot place on “shadow step” skill maybe shadow step could be reworked into something like upgraded escape where u dont go invisible but get better defenses for some time,+50 def for 10 seconds like shadowing beyond and then +20-25 for another 10-15 secs then shadowing beyond could be suited for rogues that go invis and shadow step for rogues that dont want to go invis like streetfighters etc

Edited September 22, 2019 by 3x0du5

[Boeroer]

Shadow Step should give you paralyzing attacks for some time (not just one). Let's say 10 secs base (maybe that's too much)? And suddenly it would be picked.

[Elric Galad]

46 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Shadow Step should give you paralyzing attacks for some time (not just one). Let's say 10 secs base (maybe that's too much)? And suddenly it would be picked.

Changing the way an ability works is trickier than changing its values 

Rising Paralysis to 8s maybe ? 10s starts sounding too much, especially for SC upgraded version. 
Garrote has a prone effect that adds up to its 6s paralysis, and Stunning Blow has its refund upgrade + double chance to apply that both mitigate its cost so I guess it would be balanced.

I also have Power Strike in my list of abilities to be buffed. First, its cost should be set to 3 Discipline ; a longer Stun (and staggered) would help too (8s, 10s ?)

[3x0du5]

8s or 10s paralyse it will never be worth taking over shadowing beyond which gives invisible, deflection buff and triggers assassinate+backstab, also 3rd upgrade adds swift to shadowing beyond if  it was not good enough already , and then even shadowing beyond is useless once u get vanishing strikes. Problem with rogue skills here is deeper than comparing them to garrote ability which is kinda average since you can have spammable aoe paralyse from other classes, anyway we will welcome any changes as long as they make something better,beggars can't be choosers  I'm sure the mod( doesn't matter what changes it make) will be better than vanilla rogue tree where you either end up spamming Shadowing Beyond as multi or Vanishing strikes as SC and using any other skill is crippling yourself 

 

Edited September 22, 2019 by 3x0du5

[Elric Galad]

But that's because you want to play Rogue as a sneaky backstabber rather than a backline enforcer. Shadow Step shall be better for Rogues who don't Care about invisibility (but it is currently not) or SC Class Rogues who use Vanishing for this purpose and want more diverse abilities.

I'm still wondering about the numbers, you know. Reducing the Guile cost was necessary albeit not necessarily sufficient.

As you pointed, the real problem of Rogue Ability Tree is that many abilities tend to do the same thing. So you end up picking the best of them if they are unsufficiently distinguished.

Escape isn't technically replaced. So even if picking a situational upgrade isn't better 100% of cases, it might still being worth it for these cases. Shadow Step problem is that it is currently not even Valuable for these cases.

Anyway, I thought Shadowing Beyond Deflection and Swift effects were also cancelled when attacking...