Assassin underpowered?

[AeonsLegend]

So I just made a test character to see the damage output. It's not optimized, but pretty good.

• Level 20 with some equipment to boost crit damage and such
• 2 handed legendary weapon
• Backstab
• Full crit build 
• Swashbuckler (Devoted/Assassin)
• Deathblows
• All fighter +% damage
• 22 strength

I tested on the boars on the beach. Had Eder use persistent distraction to trigger deathblows. Use shadowing beyond. Hit with any ability. Max damage result I saw was 170 damage on crit. That's 10 damage shy of my Crusader crit-tank build. The numbers looked good, but the results are disappointing to say the least. Sure the Swashbuckler is really tanky on top of this. Perhaps if I went with Marauder it would do more damage? But how much more? Does anyone have any decent results? If the assassin only does a tad bit more damage than any other tanky frontliner then what's the point of gimping yourself in the early game so you can do a bit more damage 2-3 times per fight?

[Boeroer]

Stacking some mediocre additive dmg bonuses (Devoted) with a lot higher additive dmg bonuses (Assassin) will not result in jawdropping dmg numbers (per hit). Except maybe if you'd use an Assassin/Ranger who uses Assassination + Backstab + Takedown combo with an arquebus (very tedious setup though).

You need to combine the high additive dmg bonuses the Assassin gets with a multiplicative one. That's abilities with very high PL bonus (meaning low level abilities), lashes and DoTs (wounding, Bleeding Cuts, Deep Wounds etc.).

So, stuff like Bleak Walker + Assassin + high base dmg lash weapon (Dragon's Dowry, Cromoprismatic etc.) or wounding weapon (Oathbreaker's + Bleeding Cuts) works better than Devoted + Assassin. Simply because the lashes/the DoTs will take the already high dmg roll and multiply everything. 

While a Devoted will add some whimpy Weapon Spec and Mastery and a bit more crit dmg which is all just some little chunks of weapon base damage. 

Example: 

A) Weapon base dmg of 20, +250% base dmg modifier vs. B) dmg of 20, +200% base dmg mod and a +30% lash:

A) 20 * (1+2.5) = 70

B) 20 * (1+2) * 1.3 = 78

Although B's lash is "only" 30% vs. A's 50% additive bonus the overall dmg is still higher.

So, tl;dr: combine additive dmg bonuses with multiplicative ones - it's more effective than stacking lots of additive ones.

Besides that: Devoted is good because he adds PEN. Much more important than his increased crit dmg. But an Assassin already has very high PEN with Assassination. So this doesn't complement very well except against the highest of AR values.

 

 

[AeonsLegend]

Thanks man. Yea I had about 27 pen or something on some hits. Lol.

I did notice all the additive bonusses and yea they are not very impressive. So you're saying the lashes are multiplicative? Is Flames of Devotion counted as a lash? That would explain why the Crusader (bleakwalker) is so strong. Is there a source of information on what is multiplicative and what is additive?

Still does not explain why the assassin is so weak in terms of damage though.

[Boeroer]

Indeed. Flames of Devotion adds a burning lash to the attack. In case of Bleak Walkers it's even to lashes (one bigger burn and one smaller corrode + sicken). If you can add a chanter to the party with Mith Fyr (burnung lash) you can drive that even higher.

Flames of Devotion is also nice because it's PL 1. Which means it gets a 5% multiplicative base dmg bonus with every additional (burn and universal) power level. So for example Magran's Favor will give you +10% multiplicative dmg with Flames of Devotion. Without any lash. Use it one handed to ensure assassination crits and activate Bleeding Cuts to deliver a devastating DoT on top of all the dmg. Takes some time to apply all the raw dmg though.

At Power Level character level 20 (PL 9), Prestige and Magran's Favor you would have 12 burn power levels. FoD is PL 1. So 12 - 1 = 11 bonus PLs for FoD. That means an 55% multiplicative dmg increase - only for a single class paladin though. A multiclass Paladin/Assassin would be able to reach  PL 7 + 2 = 9. That's a 40% multiplicative dmg increase for FoD then through power level scaling. That PLUS the multiplicative lashes and all the dmg bonuses of the Assassin which get multiplied by both. AND you can also wear the Ring of Focused Flames for +10 ACC since it works with FoD as well.

Magran's Favor is nice because of PL bonus, but it also hasn't very high base damage. So often an arquebus is better when it's about high per-hit dmg. Dragon's Dowry also has a big lash on it - so this leads to reliable high dmg per hit numbers. 

That's why I think a Bleak Walker/Assassin + Dragon's Dowry might be able to deliver the highest and rel. reliable Assassination strike (besides spells + Assassination). Maybe there's something else that works equally well but I can't see it atm. Bleak Walker/Ranger with Takedown Combo comes pretty close - although then it's not an official Assassin anymore.

Also guns are best for assassination (when using weapons) since you can always skip the reload and do something else immediately (like using Escape or Shadowing Beyond) instead of having to wait for recovery to finish. 

 

Edited May 4, 2019 by Boeroer

[AeonsLegend]

Yea I don't like guns on my mc really. So I'd want to go with a melee weapon. So are you saying that all "lashes" on cast abilities and weapons are multiplicative? I mean abilities like crippling strike from the rogue or penetrating strike from the fighter or Barbaric blow from barbarian?

[Boeroer]

There are not many lashes on spells. Blighthearts' lash is an exception (and thus that's a good weapon for a damage dealing caster). Most lashes only work with weapon attacks, some even only in melee (Turning Wheel for example).

Crippling Strike and Barbaric Blow have no lashes. They simply have additive bonuses that are based on the weapon's base damage.

Lashes are usually damage attachments like "+20% damage as burn" or "+10% damage as crush" - so basically when it's a different damage type than the one your weapon actually has.

Examples: Firebrand, Spiritual Weapons of Priests (Vatnir as Priest/Rogue with dual Spiritual Battle axes and Bleeding Cuts does actually pretty high melee dmg), Dragon's Dowry, Modwyr, Chromoprismatic Quarterstaff and many more. Effort has a wounding DoT lash but it doesn't stack with itself which is kind of bad (not like Tidefall in PoE).

Examples for abilites with lashes: Flames of Devotion, Lightning Strikes, Turning Wheel, Wildstrike...

Rogues, Barbs and Fighters have no ability that adds a lash to an attack (excapt Rogues have Deep Wounds which works like a DoT lash). Ciphers also don't. Rangers only if you count Wounding Shot. Casters in general don't have weapon lash abilites except Druids with Boar form (wounding damage while shifted) and Firebrand and Priests with spiritual weapons - but I counted that as weapons above. 

Everybody has access to multiplicative dmg bonuses for their abilites through Power Level though.

Edited May 4, 2019 by Boeroer

[AndreaColombo]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

At PL 20, Prestige and Magran's Favor you will have 12 burn power levels. FoD is PL 1. So 12 - 1 = 11 bonus PLs for FoD. That means an 55% multiplicative dmg increase PLUS the multiplicative lashes and all the dmg bonuses of the Assassin which get multiplied by both.

You can't reach PL 20 and take Prestige with a multiclass though, can you?

On a mildly related note, do you like Vatnir better as a Rogue/Priest or pure-class Priest? IIRC, Priest of Rymrgand has a couple very good high-level spells.

[Boeroer]

Eh sorry, I meant char level 20 (that's PL 9). And yes, that would be single class. I had FoD on a single Paladin in mind but then carried on with the Assassin/Paladin then. Sorry. I edited that passage.

Edited May 4, 2019 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

3 hours ago, AndreaColombo said:

On a mildly related note, do you like Vatnir better as a Rogue/Priest or pure-class Priest? IIRC, Priest of Rymrgand has a couple very good high-level spells.

The only spell that I miss when not making him SC Priest ist Call of Rymrgand I think. That one is very nice.

I only made him a Rogue/Priest because I already had a SC Priest Xoti in the party at that time - but  I was impressed and surprised by the damage he put out with his spiritual axes (+ Deep Wound + Bleeding Cuts). Those are actually very good weapons that work especially well with a Rogue. But it also means lenghty buffing and summoning etc. first. 

[Jayd]

6 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

The only spell that I miss when not making him SC Priest ist Call of Rymrgand I think. That one is very nice.

I only made him a Rogue/Priest because I already had a SC Priest Xoti in the party at that time - but  I was impressed and surprised by the damage he put out with his spiritual axes (+ Deep Wound + Bleeding Cuts). Those are actually very good weapons that work especially well with a Rogue. But it also means lenghty buffing and summoning etc. first. 

You don't miss Symbol of Rymrgand? I just did a playthrough with him and that spell alone was worth his slot. The symbol spells in general are so good I'm surprised people don't talk about them more. The axes sound cool though. Is there somewhere I can learn the specifics of each priest's summoned weapons? The wikis don't seem to have details.

Edited May 4, 2019 by Jayd

[Boeroer]

They all have the same "enchantment" besides the level scaling: they all have an elemental lash that fits the deity.  So for example Rymrgand's spiritual axes have a freezing lash, Berath's Great Sword has a corrosove lash and so on. THe good thing about dual Battle Axes with a lash on a rogue is that the lashes work beautifully with the hgh dmg bonuses as does Bleeding Cuts (modal that adds a stacking wounding DoT lash but slows down recovery). And because the rogue has cheap Full Attack abilites like Crippling Strike (it's really good by itself) you can skip the recovery malus of the modal from the main hand and only "suffer" the longer recovery of the offhand. Which translates to really great weapon dps for a priest/something. 

[Jayd]

No comment about the symbol spells? I really am trying to understand why people don't recommend SC Priest  more because of them. 

[Boeroer]

They are nice. Most of them are even better than the PL9 stuff subclasses like Skaen, Wael and some others get. When I already have a SC priest with a symbol spell in the party I really don't need a second one though since they are mostly about dmg dealing. I'm fond of the Symbol of Eothas since it's not only offensive.

But stuff like Call of Rymrgand and Light of Eothas are spells I really like. Those are not only pulsing dmg + maybe an affliction. The pull + cleanse effect, paired with damage is great - as is an AoE that damages enemies while it heals allies at the same time. Exactly fit my kind of playstyle. 

Generally I put AoE pull effects like from Pull of Eora and Call of Rymrgand over many other CC effects - since they allow you to pack enemies into a tight group so that your (friendly fire) AoE dmg capabilities work best (Whispers otW, HoF, Driving Roar, Clear the Path, Metoor Shower, Storm of Holy Fire and so on and so forth).

Especially if you have multiple pull effects going, maybe even paired with a stuck effect (Binding Roots in the centre of the pull for example).

 

Edited May 5, 2019 by Boeroer