Some questions relating to Forbidden Fist

[Jayd]

How exactly does the "extend hostile effects" part of Enfeebled work? Let's say you pair a FF with a Druid casting Plague of Insects. There are a couple ways to queue this:

 

a) Cast PoI -> apply Enfeebled

b) Apply Enfeebled -> cast PoI

 

Does Enfeebled extend the duration in both cases or only the second? More importantly, when Enfeebled expires does the extra time vanish too - in effect making the extension useless unless Enfeebled stays applied for a longer duration than the hostile effect it's extending?

 

Does Mortification of the Soul work with Forbidden Fist?

 

If you apply Weakened with Enervating Blows, does it override Enfeebled?

 

Does Parting Sorrow work when you break engagement with an enemy or only when they break engagement with you? What about when they are forced away with a push effect?

 

Is the "strike" mentioned in Tuotilo's Palm's Outward Spikes upgrade a Primary, Off hand, or Full attack? Or does it just apply damage some other way?

How does The Long Pain work when using Tuotilo's Palm in your off hand?

 

Sorry if the answers to these questions are available and I just failed to find them.

Edited February 25, 2019 by Jayd

[Boeroer]

Mortification works, yes.

 

Enervating Blows' Weakenend will not override Enfeebled. It will simply get suppressed.

 

Parting Sorrow: only when they break engagement with you. In other words: when you would get a disengagement attack against them. Push effects and all afflictions that cancel engagement (terrify, paralyze and so on) will not trigger disengagement attacks. First the engagement gets canceled and then the effect (in this case pushing) takes place. No "breaking" and no disengagement attack here.

 

The Outward Spike's strike is (afaik) just a bash with the shield - but I'm not really sure. I once tested it but my memory is fuzzy about this. Others will know better.

 

The Long Pain will simply replace both weapon slots with the Long Pain fists - no matter what you were carrying. The shield will be gone until the Long Pain expires.

Instruments of Pain will give the main melee weapon and the shield a range of +500% (or *6 in other words). 

 

Enfeebled + Plague: good question. Didn't test this, so no idea. I mean if the target is enfeebled and then gets hit by a DoT it will surely get the +50% duration. But the other way round I'm not so sure.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Boeroer

[Frak]

I haven't tested Forbidden Fist enough with extended hostile effects - monk is slightly boring, yo -, but when considering the duration of the enfeebled status itself (seems to be 150% of base duration) on targets, I think both a) and b) should work.

[Jayd]

Greatly appreciate the comments. Said "what the hell" and started a new game with a FF. I have to test some more but I've seen so far that both (a) and (b) seem to work (or, if anything, only(a) - I'm 100% sure I extended hobbling strike while it was already ticking but haven't really tested anything else).

 

I want to push this guy's deflection up as far as it will go so the choice between Balanced Shield (defl+reflex per wound) and Outward Spikes (free dmg) is a toughie. Anyone have more insight on these upgrades? I wonder if crits on the bash can proc heartbeat drumming/swift strikes, but even then it still might not be worth it if I want to push the tanky thing? I feel like the choice is probably clear and I'm just silly.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Jayd

[Boeroer]

For a tanky apporach Balanced Shield is very good in my opinion. Outward Spikes' dmg is meh.

 

Swift Flurry/Hearbeast Drumming does work with the bash. But since the base dmg is pretty low it's not jawdropping even if it triggers. The best part about Tuotilo's Palm for a Forbidden Fist in my opinion is Inward Spikes, Balanced Shield and Precision Striker.

 

If you also have Crucible and Imagined Pain (SC Monk at Power Level 9) you can achieve nice defenses while still having decent offense and a constant stream of wounds - which is the most pressing problem for a Forbidden Fist (unless you like to walk through Pulls of Eora all the time).

 

Multiclassed with Paladin or Fighter (or Wizard) you can achieve even higher defenses (afaik Balanced Shield stacks with Crucible and then either Vigorous Defense, Paladin's passives or Wizard's Illusions - and here Llengrath's Safeguard also stacks on top).

Edited February 26, 2019 by Boeroer

[thelee]

FYI, both (a) and (b) work.

 

If enfeeble wears off, you still keep the bonus duration. Basically I think the way it is treated in-game is

a) for new abilities on an enfeebled target, the +50% duration is treated like an additive bonus when calculating initial duration.

b) there's a special override when enfeeble freshly applies to a character that goes ahead and adds a +50% additive bonus to all initial durations.

 

in this respect it's much like disorient and blind. you get the immediate +50% recovery time penalty, and even if it wears off if you were mid recovery you still keep the penalty for the current recovery.

 

much like disorient/blind, there's probably some bit that gets flipped to make sure abilities aren't being double-counted for successive enfeebles, though i haven't tested this.

Edited February 26, 2019 by thelee

[Jayd]

FYI, both (a) and (b) work.

 

If enfeeble wears off, you still keep the bonus duration. Basically I think the way it is treated in-game is

a) for new abilities on an enfeebled target, the +50% duration is treated like an additive bonus when calculating initial duration.

b) there's a special override when enfeeble freshly applies to a character that goes ahead and adds a +50% additive bonus to all initial durations.

 

in this respect it's much like disorient and blind. you get the immediate +50% recovery time penalty, and even if it wears off if you were mid recovery you still keep the penalty for the current recovery.

 

much like disorient/blind, there's probably some bit that gets flipped to make sure abilities aren't being double-counted for successive enfeebles, though i haven't tested this.

Much obliged. That seems really powerful with long duration dot or CC effects, and since they often target fortitude, enfeebled makes them more accurate as well. This makes FF better than I previously realized. I'll be sticking with this guy for a while, I think. My Bellower will have to wait (or get the tavern henchman treatment).

[thelee]

 

FYI, both (a) and (b) work.

 

If enfeeble wears off, you still keep the bonus duration. Basically I think the way it is treated in-game is

a) for new abilities on an enfeebled target, the +50% duration is treated like an additive bonus when calculating initial duration.

b) there's a special override when enfeeble freshly applies to a character that goes ahead and adds a +50% additive bonus to all initial durations.

 

in this respect it's much like disorient and blind. you get the immediate +50% recovery time penalty, and even if it wears off if you were mid recovery you still keep the penalty for the current recovery.

 

much like disorient/blind, there's probably some bit that gets flipped to make sure abilities aren't being double-counted for successive enfeebles, though i haven't tested this.

Much obliged. That seems really powerful with long duration dot or CC effects, and since they often target fortitude, enfeebled makes them more accurate as well. This makes FF better than I previously realized. I'll be sticking with this guy for a while, I think. My Bellower will have to wait (or get the tavern henchman treatment).

 

yeah, FF before was marginal and seemed like it leaned real hard on a free enfeeble every once and a while, but with the improvements they made I think FF shot up to be a powerful subclass. Not quite the same wound gen as you can get with other monks, but "good enough" and now your window for free enfeebles is much more frequent.

 

edit - in a rare case of increasing returns, you should whack someone with toxic strike on them with forbidden fist. toxic strike has superlinear returns on total damage done for extra duration, and +50% is a meaty chunk of extra duration. (crit duration increases are multiplicative, so single-class, prestige debonaire with high int using toxic strike on a charmed enemy with enfeeble seems like you could do total hundreds of single-target damage in one hit. not sure if this in and of itself constitutes a strategy, but it'd be fun to do.)

 

edit 2 - running the numbers, with a PL10 debonaire with 20 intellect against 10 resolve enemy. without enfeeble, total damage done from DoT ~390. with enfeeble: ~652!! this is theorycrafting based on my understanding of toxic strike because frankly these numbers seem so high that i have to imagine there's some sort of internal damage cap. maybe not, but 48 seconds duration on toxic strike is brutal (15 base +50% int +50% enfeeble +25% multiplicative crit +30% separate multiplicative PL scaling). add in an arkemyr's wondrous torment and/or empower the toxic strike for extra pain.

Edited February 26, 2019 by thelee

[Boeroer]

Even better if you deliver the Toxic Strike with Bleeding Cuts from Battle Axes + Deep Wounds.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

In theory, forbidden fist enfeeble should also lengthen the duration of Cipher parasitic buffs like time parasite, body attunement, etc. Generally things die before those buffs expire anyway though, and I haven't directly tested.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy