How do damage penalties/bonuses work?

[rone]

21.3 Roll

+50% Finishing Blow

-50% Graze

+6% Might

+30% Exceptional

+5% Harpooning

+20% Draining Whip

 = 23.7

 

I can't follow the math here.  23.7 is 21.3 +11.5%.  I count +61% above.  Even if i apply the -50% first, then the +111%, that still doesn't match.

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

i dunno the ins and outs of how the game rounds off those decimal points - and occasionally game outright lies about what its doing - but if u add all those bonuses to ur initial roll and apply the 50% graze malus to the total, u end up with something in region of 22.5.

 

ie.

 

base 21.3

 

+50%  (10.65)

+6%    (1.278)

+30%  (6.39)

+5%    (1.065)

+20%  (4.26)

 

=  44.943

 

then

 

Graze: -50% (22.4715)

 

Like, i'm obv missing something. I've not much idea as to what would make it up to 23.7. ud need someone like maxquest for that one.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Triple - A Foxy Lad

[Boeroer]

Maluses get applied through double inversion. So as soon as you have any bonus then a malus of "50%" isn't really 50%. Have a (long) look here:

 

 

Can someone explain to me what the double inversion on negative numbers and maluses means in game terms?

The game adds all coefficients together. Bonuses, maluses, doesn't matter.

In PoE1 it worked fine, since there weren't enough big maluses.

While in Deadfire a similar approach would lead to negative damage on under-penetrating graze.

 

A lazy workaround could be to limit the damage at 0, or 20% of original value.

A better way would be to divide sum_of_bonuses by sum_of_maluses (all numbers being positive, so the result will be positive as well, plus it ends up with meaningful result).

But Deadfire went on the path of double-inversion. Which personally I see as math shenanigans, as they use different sub-formulas for bonuses and maluses, and do not cancel-out nicely if they have same absolute values. Specifically, imagine that you have:

+25% action speed from Frenzy, which translates into 1.25 speed coefficient; and

-25% action speed from Arbalest's modal, which translates into 0.75 speed coefficient

 

The game takes 1.25 and transforms it into +0.25 (step_value) via [coef - 1] formula

The game takes 0.75 and transforms it into -0.(3) (step_value) via [1 - 1/coef] formula

Now it adds them together: step_sum = 0.25 - 0.333333 = -0.083333

 

And after that computes the final coefficient:

- if step_sum is greater than 0: final_coef = step_sum + 1

- if step_sum is less than 0: final_coef = 1 / (1 - step_sum)

 

In our case it's the later, thus final_coef = 1 / (1 - -0.083333) = 0.92

And finnaly: phase_time = base_phase_time / final_coef

 

So if you had 6s reload; with Frenzy and Arbalest's modal you will have 6.52s, even if one effect was giving you +25% action speed, and another -25% action speed.

 

P.S. We call it double inversion because:

- individual malus coefficients are inverted when computing their individual step values

- if step_sum is below zero, it is inverted in order to get final coefficient

Also applies to damage, not only speed.

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

ooooh okay, okay, i think ive got it. now the clever people get to mark my homework.

 

base is 21.3

 

so u add all the coefficients together

 

Finishing Blow  +50% (0.5)

Graze               -50%  (-1) ie 1-(1/0.5)

Might                +6%   (0.06)

Exceptional      +30% (0.3)

Harpooning      +5%   (0.05)

Draining Whip  +20% (0.2)

 

and u get a final total of 0.11

 

because its positive game adds 1 to it so u have final coefficient of 1.11

 

21.3 x 1.11 =  23.643

 

which im guessing game then rounds up to 23.7?

[Boeroer]

Looks right.

 

The damage roll might have been slightly higher than 21.3 (e.g 21.34) and only got rounded for UI. That would explain why you end up at .7 and not .6.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Boeroer

[hilfazer]

Maluses are multiplicative with bonuses needed to negate them.

-50% is half. To negate half you need double and double is +100%. x * half * double == x.

 

If total bonuses were +111% then, after substracting 100%, what's left is 11%. Thus damage roll is increased by 11%.