Chanter Phrase cap

[Enoch]

I'm currently playing a War Caller (Skald), and by the far the most annoying part of building this character is the cap on Chanter phrase accumulation. 

 

Specifically, Chanters can never accumulate more Phrases than the highest cost Invocation they have learned.  This also limits the "free" phrases that Chanters get at the beginning of combat. 

 

I've been playing this character as a non-summoning Chanter, and, as incentivised by the Skald subclass, I've been avoiding investing in non-offensive Invocations.  Now I've got a level 10 War Caller who starts combat with 2 Phrases (i.e., the cost for all her Invocations), and whose Phrase count never goes above 2.  Which is unchanged from level 1.  If I re-spec her level 10 PL4 Chanter ability into a non-offensive Invocation (even though I'd really like one of those great tier-4 Phrases), boom, she starts every fight with 5 Phrases. 

 

This is supremely irritating, and I can't figure out whether it's an intended effect or not.  (That is, should I be reporting a bug?)  I get that they might want to have an upward bound on the accumulation of Phrases, but, at the very least, this cap shouldn't be less than the number of "free" phrases that one would otherwise get at the start of combat.  Deciding to relying on low-level invocations (discounted by the Skald subclass) shouldn't be gimping an important aspect of the growth of a character's class abilities. 

 

 

(If this has been discussed before, please refer me to that thread. My searching didn't find anything, but it's tough to guess the terms that folks would use for this.)

[Kaylon]

The trick is to pick the most expensive non offensive invocation in order to increase your starting phrases.

[Boeroer]

It was the same in PoE. If you didn't pick one of the highest lvl invocations (that grew in costs with every tier) at lvl-up your phrases wouldn't accumulate to the same amount as if you had.

 

You can file a bug report. It's not a bug but it's a mechanical issue that's unfair and kind of stupid, too. The number of stacked phrases should be tied to PL or char level but not which invocations you picked.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Boeroer

[Enoch]

The trick is to pick the most expensive non offensive invocation in order to increase your starting phrases.

Sure, I get that now, but I shouldn't have to trick the game into letting me access one of the benefits of leveling up in a class.  Spending an ability on an expensive option you're not planning to use just to get something that it feels like you should be getting anyway is a drag. 

 

It was the same in PoE. If you didn't pick one of the highest lvl invocations (that grew in costs with every tier) at lvl-up your phrases wouldn't accumulate to the same amount as if you had.

 

You can file a bug report. It's not a bug but it's a mechanical issue that's unfair and kind of stupid, too. The number of stacked phrases should be tied to PL or char level but not which invocations you picked.

This wasn't a huge deal in Pillars 1, because characters were prompted to pick invocations on every even-numbered level, and most players probably tended to pick one of the "new" ones.  A Troubadour is always going to have a 4-cost Invocation (the one picked at first level), and a Beckoner nearly always will (presumably one wouldn't be a Beckoner if one wasn't going to select at least one summoning Invocation).  That starts them off in a not-terrible position, even if they go a few power levels before selecting a more expensive one.  Tekehu, of course, gets certain Invocations for free at each PL, which bumps his Phrase cap up without any action by the player. 

 

Skalds, on the other hand, are the only subclass that gets a discounted rate on a subset of Invocations.  If they follow the most logical course in making their leveling decisions, they're not going to get a big lump of Phrases to spend at the start of combat, and they'll often find themselves unable to benefit from their special Phrase-generation mechanic because they're topped out. 

 

I like the idea of tying this the Phrase cap to PL, but the hard part then becomes that subclasses have different costs.  To make sure that each variety of Chanter isn't locked out of any of the Invocations they select, you'd have to start the cap at 4 at PL1, and increase it based on the maximum cost Invocation at each PL, plus 1.  Effectively, that makes Skalds, base-class Chanters, and the Storm Speaker more powerful, relative to Troubs and Beckoners.  Maybe that's warranted?  Base Chanters could probably use the boost, but Tekehu might be too strong as he is.  Skalds are probably relatively underpowered on PotD (given infrequency of crits), but I'm not sure about Relaxed/Classic/Veteran.

[Gromnir]

am admitting we were annoyed at first by the mechanic.  however, the offensive invocation cost for skald is reduced, so skald requires fewer phrases to be effective.  a 2 phrase cap feels harsh when one looks at numbers, but when one considers from a practical pov how rapid one may paralyze or shock multiple foes while working with such a cap, the penalties is less irksome.  our most recent skald is a hearth orlan wildrhymer.  named him hermey.

 

 

gave him sinister voice and savage pose and the stag from a ghost heart ranger kit.  our failed dentist has anger issues but as he is a rankin/bass creation, he needs to express his rage in song. and yes, we named the deer rudolph.

 

am suspecting we could get a better crit ratio with a war caller, but our potd run o' the aforementioned is seeing slight better than 50% crit ratio with anticipation o' better numbers as we get into later portion o' the game.  have kept  stealth and survival numbers high to take advantage o' deadfire spears.  a hearth orlan ranger using high accuracy weapons such as spears and clubs is seeing excellent crit numbers. have not genuine felt the need to pad with non-offensive chanter talents. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[baldurs_gate_2]

The trick is to pick the most expensive non offensive invocation in order to increase your starting phrases.

Hmm. I picked Animated Weapons on PL VII, but starting always with 6 phrases. Only at ship battles, i start with 7.

[Enoch]

am admitting we were annoyed at first by the mechanic.  however, the offensive invocation cost for skald is reduced, so skald requires fewer phrases to be effective.  a 2 phrase cap feels harsh when one looks at numbers, but when one considers from a practical pov how rapid one may paralyze or shock multiple foes while working with such a cap, the penalties is less irksome.  our most recent skald is a hearth orlan wildrhymer.  named him hermey.

 

[snip]

 

gave him sinister voice and savage pose and the stag from a ghost heart ranger kit.  our failed dentist has anger issues but as he is a rankin/bass creation, he needs to express his rage in song. and yes, we named the deer rudolph.

 

am suspecting we could get a better crit ratio with a war caller, but our potd run o' the aforementioned is seeing slight better than 50% crit ratio with anticipation o' better numbers as we get into later portion o' the game.  have kept  stealth and survival numbers high to take advantage o' deadfire spears.  a hearth orlan ranger using high accuracy weapons such as spears and clubs is seeing excellent crit numbers. have not genuine felt the need to pad with non-offensive chanter talents. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

I mean, yeah, I'm getting by OK-- I didn't build this character to be strictly optimal.  Mostly, it took me embarrassingly long to figure out what the applicable mechanic here was, so I wanted to confirm it and see what discussions may have taken place about it.  And it does burns me that, by deviating from the thematic vision I had for the character and picking Scions of Adon (or whatever) at level 11 (instead of something like Aefyllath or Charge), she can become far more effective.

 

(Thematically, Rihi the Thunderer is a War Hammer War Caller.  The idea of a little Orlan lady swinging a big hammer in each hand and shouting thunder and lightning seemed fun.  (Bonus that both Last Word and Resounding Call theme well with yelling at stuff.)  This is my pro-Old-Order tack at the main plot-- she has embraced the "Herald of Berath" thing wholeheartedly.)

[Gromnir]

am thinking enoch and Gromnir has similar fundamental complaints 'bout a mechanic, but our pov is differen all the same.  as much as we initial disliked the phrase cap for skalds, we saw how the mechanic were intended to function and how it were a reasonable limit on actual skald gameplay.  as such, purposeful choose a high phrase, non-offensive invocation is an exploit which potential empowers a skald beyond envisioned developer scope.  regardless, the mechanic is counter-intuitive and breaks internal logic, which asm suspecting is where enoch and Gromnir seem to be in complete agreement.  as such, the skald phrase limits is a fail even if is not excessive onerous or gamebreaking.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Boeroer]

[...] the mechanic is counter-intuitive and breaks internal logic, which asm suspecting is where enoch and Gromnir seem to be in complete agreement.

 

Count me in! 

[Archaven]

I went with a warcaller. Concept wise it's really the build I like to play. But now I know why I'm not getting much phrasea even I crit.