Please help

[Grimo88]

I'm level 15 and I am getting wiped by the Messenger in BoW (first encounter). 

 

For some reason, turning difficulty to Classic with no scaling seems miles harder than Hard WITH scaling. 

 

Have no idea what to do? Am I too low? I thought this was for level 14-15? Why the heck am I getting pumped so easily with scaling turned off??? 

[Tick]

I was able to get by just by having Xoti buff a lot and doing damage, but I'm on normal.

 

What kind of debuffs are happening to your team?

[gkathellar]

Did you have scaling down on?

[anathanielh]

I had 2 tanks (Eder and Xoti) that constantly buff and heal, 2 ranged dps (Serafen and Aloth), and my watcher as a melee dps for that fight.

 

My watcher ran around and dealt with the zombie blokes with Serafen while the other 3 just focused on the messenger.

 

As long as the tanks are sufficiently buffed, the Messenger won’t really move around that much and will focus mainly on them unless he casts a spell (I made sure to interrupt him with Eder’s rogue skills)

[Tick]

Oh! Make sure you use Eder's abilities like that relentless endurance thing, if that's applicable.

[Grimo88]

I got him. I restarted the game and I'm pretty sure that put the difficulty back where it should have been. 

 

I've taken  a party that's more for story than optimized tactics so it's a bit of a bitch. 

 

Main problem was that my guys were grouped for the AoE Concelhaut's Drain. 

 

Good fight! 

 

Thanks all for your help. 

[Verde]

Fyi the DLC gets progressively tougher so may want to level up a bit. I actually had a few squishy chars die at lvl 20.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Verde

[Zap Gun For Hire]

There is one slightly cheesy way to deal with The Messenger.

 

When fighting The Messenger one might note it never moves.  Like, ever.

 

However all of the critters which do join the fight can and will move if properly aggroed.

 

So fall back a bit when the next wave of attackers show up, deal with them, and then go back to ol' Chatty.

 

Another, if mega cheesy, way to deal with it is to have a Chanter constantly send their summoned critters into the fray from a distance and take out the extra forces before dealing with the Messenger. 

 

Finally, when in doubt,  go for Mule Kicks, Concussive Tranquilizers or any other good Interrupts.  Especially when ol' Chatty is about to fire off one of its super nasty abilities.  It's a motto that rarely fails when my back is against the wall.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Zap Gun For Hire

[Stardusk78]

You really need to be high level in order to even attempt it right? and it is required to beat him to get Vatnir....now that is a shame.

[anathanielh]

You really need to be high level in order to even attempt it right? and it is required to beat him to get Vatnir....now that is a shame.

You don’t need to be a really high level to even attempt the fight. I felt it was possible with a level 15-16 party with proper micro and item use.

[Stardusk78]

 

You really need to be high level in order to even attempt it right? and it is required to beat him to get Vatnir....now that is a shame.

You don’t need to be a really high level to even attempt the fight. I felt it was possible with a level 15-16 party with proper micro and item use.

 

I mean much earlier, as in level 7-9? I really want Vatnir with me for most of the game. Maybe there is some way to cheese it...?

[Stardusk78]

There is one slightly cheesy way to deal with The Messenger.

 

When fighting The Messenger one might note it never moves.  Like, ever.

 

However all of the critters which do join the fight can and will move if properly aggroed.

 

So fall back a bit when the next wave of attackers show up, deal with them, and then go back to ol' Chatty.

 

Another, if mega cheesy, way to deal with it is to have a Chanter constantly send their summoned critters into the fray from a distance and take out the extra forces before dealing with the Messenger. 

 

Finally, when in doubt,  go for Mule Kicks, Concussive Tranquilizers or any other good Interrupts.  Especially when ol' Chatty is about to fire off one of its super nasty abilities.  It's a motto that rarely fails when my back is against the wall.

Do you think these techniques would work for a level 8 party?

[anathanielh]

 

 

You really need to be high level in order to even attempt it right? and it is required to beat him to get Vatnir....now that is a shame.

You don’t need to be a really high level to even attempt the fight. I felt it was possible with a level 15-16 party with proper micro and item use.

I mean much earlier, as in level 7-9? I really want Vatnir with me for most of the game. Maybe there is some way to cheese it...?

If you wish with all your heart, you can win

[Stardusk78]

 

 

 

You really need to be high level in order to even attempt it right? and it is required to beat him to get Vatnir....now that is a shame.

You don’t need to be a really high level to even attempt the fight. I felt it was possible with a level 15-16 party with proper micro and item use.

I mean much earlier, as in level 7-9? I really want Vatnir with me for most of the game. Maybe there is some way to cheese it...?

If you wish with all your heart, you can win

 

Hmm....guess some ultra cheese something will be required then.

[Zap Gun For Hire]

 

There is one slightly cheesy way to deal with The Messenger.

 

When fighting The Messenger one might note it never moves. Like, ever.

 

However all of the critters which do join the fight can and will move if properly aggroed.

 

So fall back a bit when the next wave of attackers show up, deal with them, and then go back to ol' Chatty.

 

Another, if mega cheesy, way to deal with it is to have a Chanter constantly send their summoned critters into the fray from a distance and take out the extra forces before dealing with the Messenger.

 

Finally, when in doubt, go for Mule Kicks, Concussive Tranquilizers or any other good Interrupts. Especially when ol' Chatty is about to fire off one of its super nasty abilities. It's a motto that rarely fails when my back is against the wall.

 

Do you think these techniques would work for a level 8 party?

Unless you buff out your melee front line up the wazoo, probably not. I mean, using consumables and what not, maaaaaaaaaybe level 8 characters might not get steamrolled. But your best bet is probably Chanter Cheese. Have a chanter constantly send out summoned creatures, get rid of the support types that will show up during the fight as the dragon loses health first, and then slowly whittle the dragon down.

 

Biggest problem with this strat is that it has access to regenerative magic via a drain health from enemies spell (away from computer, so I can't look up the name). The bad news is that it usually lasts 30 seconds, which means it can suck a low level party dry pretty fast.

 

The good news is summons will probably 'wink out' before the duration is over, meaning the dragon won't get as many HPs back as it might.

 

But between its terrify AoE attack, it's huge base damage, its high defenses, and its attack that can drain your hp and convert it to health, this isn't an easy fight.

 

Really, the fight is something of a "are you tall enough to ride this ride" marker. If you can survive that first fight, it's more or less a benchmark for much of the rest of the DLC.

 

 

But. I dunno, maybe? If one is willing to use consumables/figurines and spend a lot of time grinding and having the perfect party for a single fight, a lot of things can be done super early.

 

Maybe some of the things sold over at th new Deck of Many Things might help. Haven't really checked them out yet.

 

....

 

Or just hire something like four level 7 Chanters and just spam the battlefield with summoned critters from far away and see what happens.

 

=========

 

Maybe I'll try it with a level 8/9 party on Casual or a similar level and see just how hard it is to do. Probably doable if one cheeses hard enough. But' it take a lot of tactics and planning with maybe a little bit of luck.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Zap Gun For Hire

[omgFIREBALLS]

I didn't try this but if the dragon doesn't move and it cannot heal outside of draining, there's a very easy-cheesy-dragon-squeezy-give-vatnir-pleasy solution:

 

BRAND ENEMY

 

It's a paladin T3 talent. It deals fire damage forever. It cannot miss. There are other permanent DoT's in the game, but this is the only I know of that can't even miss. Just throw this on the dragon and run far away enough that you won't auto-aggro its minions but close enough that combat doesn't end because you fled, and just tab out while it dies a slow, inevitable death that would make Ryrmgand proud except you used heat instead of cold.

 

P.S. This thread should have been posted in the strategy forum.

 

Edit: Just tested, it really is that easy, she's ticking down as I'm typing this and nothing is coming to attack my party. Although it doesn't seem intended that she cannot move, so enjoy it while it lasts. I don't even think it's possible to reset her so you don't even need to worry about finding the right distance, just run to the brewmaster or w/e.

 

Edit again: I showered and she ticked out while I was gone. However, after killing her you still need to kill her minions, and they don't have a summon duration. The luminous revenants are slow and can be kited, so it's only the risen champion (drag him away from the zombies, they'll tire of chasing) who might be challenging and he might not even be there on lower difficulties - this was 20 upscaled PotD.

 

Another ability that will work is Gouging Strike, rogue T3. This is a permanent DoT too with the upside of doing raw damage so it will work on everything, but with the downside that you need to land the attack (arquebus modal recommended ^^). Both Brand Enemy and Gouging Strike are T3 talents as I said so they are available really early in the game.

Edited August 4, 2018 by omgFIREBALLS

[anathanielh]

I didn't try this but if the dragon doesn't move and it cannot heal outside of draining, there's a very easy-cheesy-dragon-squeezy solution:

 

BRAND ENEMY

 

It's a paladin T3 talent. It deals fire damage forever. It cannot miss. There are other permanent DoT's in the game, but this is the only I know of that can't even miss. Just throw this on the dragon and run far away enough that you won't auto-aggro its minions but close enough that combat doesn't end because you fled, and just tab out while it dies a slow, inevitable death that would make Ryrmgand proud except you used heat instead of cold.

 

P.S. This thread should have been posted in the strategy forum.

 

Edit: Just tested, it really is that easy, she's ticking down as I'm typing this and nothing is coming to attack my party. Although it doesn't seem intended that she cannot move, so enjoy it while it lasts. I don't even think it's possible to reset her so you don't even need to worry about finding the right distance, just run to the brewmaster or w/e.

 

LO AND BEHOLD!!! THE PINNACLE OF CHEESE!!!

 

Sheogorath is proud

Edited August 4, 2018 by anathanielh

[Zap Gun For Hire]

 However, after killing her you still need to kill her minions, and they don't have a summon duration. The luminous revenants are slow and can be kited, so it's only the risen champion (drag him away from the zombies, they'll tire of chasing) who might be challenging and he might not even be there on lower difficulties - this was 20 upscaled PotD.

That's because they're not summons, as near as I can tell, but part of the encounter.  They show up on the map (technically crawling out of the ground) when Mama Cass gets to Hurt/Bloodied/Near Death for the first time, as well as at the beginning of the encounter.

 

Also, this is one of those encounters where aggro is never broken. Which is why I mentioned/thought of Chanter Cheese in the first place, as their abilities never stop.

 

As an aside, thinking Chanters might be pretty useful in the Magran's challenge where one technically can't run away.  I presume that means aggro is never broken once it starts.  Which gives a decided advantage to folks who can run far distances away quickly and summon scores of critters on enemies endlessly.

 

Might need to chip chip chip away.  But, hey, if Obsidian wants to make it so combat can't end in some situations, why not take advantage of that situation?

Edited August 4, 2018 by Zap Gun For Hire

[omgFIREBALLS]

Also, this is one of those encounters where aggro is never broken. Which is why I mentioned/thought of Chanter Cheese in the first place, as their abilities never stop.

 

As an aside, thinking Chanters might be pretty useful in the Magran's challenge where one technically can't run away.  I presume that means aggro is never broken once it starts.  Which gives a decided advantage to folks who can run far distances away quickly and summon scores of critters on enemies endlessly.

 

Might need to chip chip chip away.  But, hey, if Obsidian wants to make it so combat can't end in some situations, why not take advantage of that situation?

Yeah, someone already figured that out

 

I think summon zerging The Messenger sounds like a terrible idea though if you're just hoping to chip her to death. Chances are your minions won't choose to attack her to begin with, and that if they do they can't cause nearly as much damage as they're offering her as healing through drains.

[Zap Gun For Hire]

 

Also, this is one of those encounters where aggro is never broken. Which is why I mentioned/thought of Chanter Cheese in the first place, as their abilities never stop.

 

As an aside, thinking Chanters might be pretty useful in the Magran's challenge where one technically can't run away.  I presume that means aggro is never broken once it starts.  Which gives a decided advantage to folks who can run far distances away quickly and summon scores of critters on enemies endlessly.

 

Might need to chip chip chip away.  But, hey, if Obsidian wants to make it so combat can't end in some situations, why not take advantage of that situation?

Yeah, someone already figured that out

Never claimed it was an original thought.

 

In fact, I figured it was a fairly obvious strategy where it played to the main strength of the Chanter.

 

(I mean, really, if Obsidian WANTS infinite combat, like hell am I not going to take advantage of the class most suited for it. )

Edited August 4, 2018 by Zap Gun For Hire