Non combat force powers

[sniggy]

I don't know, there are several non-Jedi characters who play key roles in majour events, like Han Solo, Boba Fett, Jar-Jar...

 

*ducks*

Yes,Jar Jar plays a key role in a major event: "Target practice"...

unfortunately for us all, senator binks (!) is NOT going to die in episode3.

 

BUT

 

i will make a flash target practise game featuring that gungan freak, just so i can hear him scream...

 

oh yessss

[Shdy314]

There is one non-combat aspect of the Force that was largely ignored in KOTOR1. Telepathy.

Krea is supposed to communicate with you telepathically.

[Bantha Fodder]

There is one non-combat aspect of the Force that was largely ignored in KOTOR1.  Telepathy.

Krea is supposed to communicate with you telepathically.

That would certainly add some depth to the storyline.

[Logan]

Okay, seriously. I think a CRPG dealing with non-Jedi could be done, and done well. You are a non-Jedi who stumbles across a threat along the lines of the Trade Federation allying itself with Siddious. The proper authorities (i.e. the Jedi Council) refuse to believe in the threat, so you're on your own to try and stop it. *shrug* Not the best of ideas, and rather cliched, but it could be evolved into something decent.

 

You'd have the option from a variety of non-Jedi classes to choose from, but wouldn't necessarily be going head to head with Force adepts.

But why make it a StarWars cRPG at all then?

 

I think a party-based, sci-fi/space cRPG, similar to BG or NWN would work well. Hell even if it just meant exploring the unknown universe, ala startrek (but please, not startrek)

[tripleRRR]

It would be interesting if done right, which is very hard to do, since few Sci-fi RPGs succeed.

 

 

TripleRRR

[Mendoza]

I think there's room for a non Jedi based RPG in the Star Wars universe, but that the plot and ultimate objectives would have to be diffferent to that of KotOR. Any non Jedi based RPG should accept that a non Jedi character shouldn't be able to stand against a powerful Jedi like Malak. This doesn't prevent you from facing lesser Jedi, but only if you are (level wise) significantly more powerful level wise.

 

And to me, this doesn't mean a non Jedi having some non combat option to defeat someone as powerful as Malak. In the Star Wars universe, Jedi are (and should be) more powerful than similar level non Jedi, and except in very rare circumstances shouldn't be able to be defeated by such characters.

[Drakron]

The Vorg shown the force users are not the end all they are supposed to be.

 

A non force user can beat a force user, Boba Fett in Jedi Academy serves as a example of that.

 

The only problem is that a non force user have to use some special gear against a force user, expecialy if such force user uses a lightsaber but stuff as slug thowers, flame throwers and rocket launchers work quite welll, its a bit exotic to be common used but it can be found.

 

Nothing says a force user is better, they simply have the force as their ally and a powerful ally it is but Luke was getting to be shoot on the back by Boba Fett, perhaps the force guided Solo ... perhaps Solo is strong on the force but then again maybe non force users can hold their own against force users and we have the area battle as a example of that, force users are mortals and make errors, Malak is really not so strong and in fact many stategies to beat involve energy shields, granades and mine laying,.

[Mendoza]

The Vorg shown the force users are not the end all they are supposed to be.

 

A non force user can beat a force user, Boba Fett in Jedi Academy serves as a example of that.

 

The only problem is that a non force user have to use some special gear against a force user, expecialy if such force user uses a lightsaber but stuff as slug thowers, flame throwers and rocket launchers work quite welll, its a bit exotic to be common used but it can be found.

 

Nothing says a force user is better, they simply have the force as their ally and a powerful ally it is but Luke was getting to be shoot on the back by Boba Fett, perhaps the force guided Solo ... perhaps Solo is strong on the force but then again maybe non force users can hold their own against force users and we have the area battle as a example of that, force users are mortals and make errors, Malak is really not so strong and in fact many stategies to beat involve energy shields, granades and mine laying,.

Hmmm... I seem to recall that in Jedi Academy I kicked Boba Fett's ass and he ran away.

 

But anyway, there's obvious situations where an uber Jedi could be defeeated. If he's on a lone ship and is ambushed by a big fleet he could be killed. But I'm struggling to think of an RPG which doesn't amount to, combat or otherwise, a face off between the protagonist and antagonist. A flaw in RPG's perhaps, but one that seems pretty consistent in the genre. And, to reference Malak, there's always the insinuation that your character was never tough enough to take them on face to face, although I guess you could probably live with that.

 

Most epic confrontations seem to be reduced to one on one battles though.

[Drakron]

RPGs struggle to maintain class balance ... neither Jedi or Sith are to be "end all" in relation to power.

 

RPGs however do not struggle to maintain level balance, a lv 10 character will wipe the floor of a lv 1 character reguadless of that character having force powers or not.

 

Problem is SW:KotOR simply did not balanced the classes and the fact the force classes were better was because they were not balanced.

 

Also we have the fact if the RPG is a party game then the class choice is irrelevent because they are supposed to act as a team, that was a big issue in SW:KotOR since not only there was no class balance but also there was no level balance (enemies were simply too easy beaten after a point) with Malak becaming a too high challance since we were set alone with then and had no backup from other menbers.

 

A Star Wars RPG were players have a choice to play a jedi or not is possible expecialy in a party system when its easy to just bring along a force user party member to help deal with opposing force users, having "the final dual" is not only a the same clich

[Opus131]

^ A few points.

 

First of all, all though this is a RPG, Star Wars comes first, and there's no way around that.

 

Sadly enought, Star Wars was not developed with balance in mind. Jedi are supposed to be the all end of powerful characters, and that's the way it's supposed to be.

 

The fact is, an RPG is not about balance of power, it's about usefulness.

 

A fighter is always more powerful then a thief, but if you design a campain where thievery is just as needed as combat prowess, the fighter ain't going anywhere without a rouge in his party.

 

If we establish that the Jedi is the number one powerhouse class, then you need to base all other classes on something besides combat.

 

Make scoundrels more skillfull, adjut scouts to be more unique, make soldiers have unique abilities not accessable by Jedi.

 

Balance the game in order to make skills much more needed, this way the player will have to balance his party beetween at least one powerhouse characters plus 2 skill based characters, this would balance the challenge rating of the game somewhat.

 

Next, increase the power of ranged weapons. A good way to do this is by giving a more important role to personal force shields.

 

A blaster bolt should kill anybody in one hit, as shown in the movies. To counter this, armor may offer some defence, whereas a shield may give complete protection for a certain amout of energy hit points. What's more, a blaster bolt will be much more effective against a force shield then a light saber, whereas the latter will be more effective against non shielded opponents.

 

And of course, Jedi CAN'T use shields, too much interference with that light saber.

 

And what happend to those wonderful shielded droids we see in the movies ?!? Those shileds seemed invulnerable to light sabers and blast bolds alike, unless of course, somebody in your party discharge an EMP granade.

 

And what to talk about those pesky rancors ?!? They are rather lovable, shouldn't there be more of those things around ?!?

 

And now that i think of it, why can't the Sith employ more interesting weapons ?!? This is sci-fi after all, where are all the stun guns ?!? Why don't they use projectile weapons against Jedi ?!?

 

Here's another idea, make soldiers more efficient with granades, armors and blaster weapons.

 

Frankly, i could go on forever.

[sniggy]

If we establish that the Jedi is the number one powerhouse class, then you need to base all other classes on something besides combat.

 

a jedi counselor is effectively a character that doesn't concentrate on combat. though i must admit that kotor couldn't really reflect that. same goes for jedi scholars, jedi healers etc.

 

Next, increase the power of ranged weapons. A good way to do this is by giving a more important role to personal force shields.

 

A blaster bolt should kill anybody in one hit, as shown in the movies. To counter this, armor may offer some defence, whereas a shield may give complete protection for a certain amout of energy hit points. What's more, a blaster bolt will be much more effective against a force shield then a light saber, whereas the latter will be more effective against non shielded opponents.

 

true, but the problem that arises in a computer game is the necessity to increase dialogue and non-combat interaction as to make avoiding combat possible. otherwise, people will have to save and load their games VERY often.

 

in normal RPG, this is possible. one hit with a blaster. you're gone

 

And of course, Jedi CAN'T use shields, too much interference with that light saber.

 

that would be an artificial restriction. this ain't medieval fantasy (no- you're a wizard, you can't wear armor. now blow off)

 

And now that i think of it, why can't the Sith employ more interesting weapons ?!? This is sci-fi after all, where are all the stun guns ?!? Why don't they use projectile weapons against Jedi ?!?

 

some more interesting weapons would be fine. but- if a jedi can deflect a blaster shot, he can very well deflect projectiles.

[Drakron]

I dont think so, projectiles have such kinetic energy behind then that force push would require a miracle (read blowing up a force point for that) to be able to stop then in flight.

 

Granades, yes ... rockets and bullets no.

 

Also as a blaster is basic energy a projectile is basicly mass, a lightsaber could melt it but as seen in the movies the blaster is slower (since we can stop it travel from one point to another as you cannot do it with bullets) and so its would be nearly impossible to position the lightsaber to melt the bullet that would still have kinetic energy moving then forward and in the case of rockets ... well it would detonate the payload right in their face.

[Dead Skin Mask]

The Vorg shown the force users are not the end all they are supposed to be.

Who are the Vorg? Do you mean the force immune race called the Yuuzhan Vong? Getting our facts mixed up PC/PS2 user?

 

 

Cheers!

[Judge Hades]

I don't care about balance. I just want to play a non-Jedi.

[jaguars4ever]

You know it would a very interesting change of pace for this franchise to have a main character that wasn

[EnderAndrew]

Drakon, you claim that RPG's struggle to maintain class balance.

 

That all depends on the RPG. White Wolf's World of Darkness RPGs are a great example. Certain clans have huge advantages in Vampire, such as the Tremere. In Changeling, one type of Fae is immensely more powerful than any other. Engel, a D20 game, also has one class of Angels, the Michaelites, who are purposefully more powerful than others.

 

In D&D, the classes vary in power at the different levels. A level one Wizard is horribly under-powered, while a level 20 Wizard is more powerful than most level 20 characters.

 

They had to release 3.5, because 3rd edition had many exploits to make one class far more powerful than another. (Examples, starting at rouge at 1st level to twink on skill points, or Rangers getting two-weapon combat off the bat)

 

Better yet, look at the two iterations of the Star Wars RPG. Jedi are frankly more powerful than other characters both in D20 and D6.

 

The world isn't fair, and RPGs don't have to be either.

[sniggy]

I dont think so, projectiles have such kinetic energy behind then that force push would require a miracle (read blowing up a force point for that) to be able to stop then in flight.

 

Granades, yes ... rockets and bullets no.

 

Also as a blaster is basic energy a projectile is basicly mass, a lightsaber could melt it but as seen in the movies the blaster is slower (since we can stop it travel from one point to another as you cannot do it with bullets) and so its would be nearly impossible to position the lightsaber to melt the bullet that would still have kinetic energy moving then forward and in the case of rockets ... well it would detonate the payload right in their face.

??? deflect refers to the ability of a jedi to deflect blaster bolts with his saber. if you can hit a blaster bolt with your saber, then you can hit any other projectile as well.

 

who says a blaster is "slower"? there weren't any projectlies in the movies except the ewok and gungan weapons. i don't want to go into the science of this stuff here since star wars is more fantasy than science fiction, but melting bullets hardly seems to be a problem.

 

if you go with the star wars rpg, a jedi can deflect any projectile that is "less-than-starfighter" sized. so, any projectiles from personal weapons may be deflected. same goes with grenades, though many grenades (not all of them) are likely to explode.

[sniggy]

Drakon, you claim that RPG's struggle to maintain class balance.

 

That all depends on the RPG. White Wolf's World of Darkness RPGs are a great example. Certain clans have huge advantages in Vampire, such as the Tremere. In Changeling, one type of Fae is immensely more powerful th

if you play classless point-based systems, you won't have a problem with that. force-sensitivity would depend on a stroke of luck (game master rolls when you create your character. if you're force sensitive, you may become a jedi or a force adept, else you may not)- kindda like in galaxies.

 

though i must admit that i do not know of a good system that might reflect what i just wrote.

[Opus131]

a jedi counselor is effectively a character that doesn't concentrate on combat. though i must admit that kotor couldn't really reflect that. same goes for jedi scholars, jedi healers etc.

 

Hopefully, they'll correct this issue for the sequels.

 

true, but the problem that arises in a computer game is the necessity to increase dialogue and non-combat interaction as to make avoiding combat possible. otherwise, people will have to save and load their games VERY often.

 

Frankly, i wouldn't mind that at all. Less (and more challenging and detailed) combat is a good thing as far as i'm concerned.

 

One of the things i loathed the most in BG2 was the insane amount of combat, it got old very quick, and after a while it became a chore.

 

Make combat more interesting, but less frequent. This will make battles more memorable, and more entartaining as well.

 

that would be an artificial restriction. this ain't medieval fantasy (no- you're a wizard, you can't wear armor. now blow off)

 

Yeah well, we already have the 'you can't use force/cast spells while wearing armor' D&D restriction (which doesn't make ANY sense in either games), i think being unable to use a shield while wielding a light saber is perfectly reasonable.

 

some more interesting weapons would be fine. but- if a jedi can deflect a blaster shot, he can very well deflect projectiles.

 

Nope, none at all.

 

As shown in the movies, blaster bolts are considerably slower then a normal projectile weapon (as slow as an arrow even), and bullets can't be deflected either.

 

A droid mounted with two high frequency photon mini guns (imagine several hundreds minute blaster bolts per second) would make life very miserable for a Jedi.

 

Not to talk about granades and rockets. You couldn't deflect grandes in KOTOR, and any attempt would only make the granade explode in your face.

 

The fact is that we haven't seen much in the order of weaponry in KOTOR.

 

In Star Wars, they had all kinds of war machines. From giant artillery droids, to colossal walking Juggenauts, all the way to planetary sized doom machines, this is how modern wars a fought.

 

In a battlefield, Jedi skills would be has useful as a Samurai in any modern skirmish.

 

All you have is an poorly trained soldier branding a melee weapon against a walking command center, not good where you are part of an artillery infantry unit, would it matter that he could kill anybody in single combat ?!?

 

I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to employ battle driods and infantry units with weapons powerful enought to blow a hole in a battle cruiser, in KOTOR you just don't get a sense of the irrilevance of your personal power in the large scheme of things.

[Drakron]

??? deflect refers to the ability of a jedi to deflect blaster bolts with his saber. if you can hit a blaster bolt with your saber, then you can hit any other projectile as well.

 

Because a blaster bolt is energy, in fact its gas turned into energy.

 

who says a blaster is "slower"? there weren't any projectlies in the movies except the ewok and gungan weapons. i don't want to go into the science of this stuff here since star wars is more fantasy than science fiction, but melting bullets hardly seems to be a problem.

 

By the simple fact you can see a blaster travel in naked eye as you cannot do the same with a bullet.

 

Also just because "its fantasy" is no excuse to ignore basic physic law and to ignore kinetic energy mean ignoring Newton

[sniggy]

Because a blaster bolt is energy, in fact its gas turned into energy.

 

where did you get that one? (just asking outta curiousity)

 

By the simple fact you can see a blaster travel in naked eye as you cannot do the same with a bullet.

 

i could see them if they would glow- in fact, i CAN see ammunition that leaves a glow behind. dunno what it's called but they use them to aim into target at night

 

besides, projectile speeds are pretty much known- they don't travel that fast.

 

Also just because "its fantasy" is no excuse to ignore basic physic law and to ignore kinetic energy mean ignoring Newton

[sniggy]

a jedi counselor is effectively a character that doesn't concentrate on combat. though i must admit that kotor couldn't really reflect that. same goes for jedi scholars, jedi healers etc.

 

Hopefully, they'll correct this issue for the sequels.

 

yeah, i hope so, too. would give the whole thing a little more depth.

 

Frankly, i wouldn't mind that at all. Less (and more challenging and detailed) combat is a good thing as far as i'm concerned.

 

*g* YOU wouldn't mind it *I* wouldn't mind it... unfortunately, i guess the majority would. *sigh*

 

One of the things i loathed the most in BG2 was the insane amount of combat, it got old very quick, and after a while it became a chore.

 

there was the cavern complex with the insanely amounts of mindflayers. i saved during, before and after combat and it took hours over hours over... yeah- too much combat can really start to become annoying. you're completely right.

 

some more interesting weapons would be fine. but- if a jedi can deflect a blaster shot, he can very well deflect projectiles.

 

Nope, none at all.

 

As shown in the movies, blaster bolts are considerably slower then a normal projectile weapon (as slow as an arrow even), and bullets can't be deflected either.

 

again, there's nothing in the movies that supports this- there's no scene with blaster shots and projectiles so that a direct comparison would be possible.

 

I've been basing my assumption on the star wars rpg. it's perfectly possible there (see my post above)

 

The fact is that we haven't seen much in the order of weaponry in KOTOR.

 

huh? what do you mean? you mean heavy weapons?

 

In a battlefield, Jedi skills would be has useful as a Samurai in any modern skirmish.

 

that's what i would've thought, too- but lucas thinks otherwise. anyway, i can see some of the skills (especially sense and battlemind) be of use- but only if the jedi is actually in a commaning position, rallying the troops. a jedi fighting up front would rather look like the arena scene in episode2. i don't know how many of them actually arrived, but there were only a handful left at the end.

 

cruiser, in KOTOR you just don't get a sense of the irrilevance of your personal power in the large scheme of things.

 

you're right, but then again, there were no major battles in kotor. only little fights. the party missed out on the mass combat, so there was no point in including those i guess.

[LostStraw]

By the simple fact you can see a blaster travel in naked eye as you cannot do the same with a bullet.

 

Also just because "its fantasy" is no excuse to ignore basic physic law and to ignore kinetic energy mean ignoring Newton

[EnderAndrew]

Drakon, you claim that RPG's struggle to maintain class balance.

 

That all depends on the RPG.  White Wolf's World of Darkness RPGs are a great example.  Certain clans have huge advantages in Vampire, such as the Tremere.  In Changeling, one type of Fae is immensely more powerful th

if you play classless point-based systems, you won't have a problem with that. force-sensitivity would depend on a stroke of luck (game master rolls when you create your character. if you're force sensitive, you may become a jedi or a force adept, else you may not)- kindda like in galaxies.

 

though i must admit that i do not know of a good system that might reflect what i just wrote.

The Old Star Wars RPG system by West End games is a classless point system like you described.

[EnderAndrew]

By the simple fact you can see a blaster travel in naked eye as you cannot do the same with a bullet.

 

Also just because "its fantasy" is no excuse to ignore basic physic law and to ignore kinetic energy mean ignoring Newton