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I always thought a pure telepath or enchanter type character would be fun in a game like this. Someone that relies entirely on stun, confusion, charm and domination. I figure cyphers won't get special dialogue options for reading peoples minds (do they?) but all the same I wondered if this could be done.

 

Cyphers do have some of these abilities. Maybe not as much as I'd like, and usually the depend on dealing damage. 

 

Perhaps a subclass with wizard or chanter could make a build like this? Thoughts?

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Ciphers do get special dialogue options, and i think more than others (druids also have some uniques).

You can go Beguiler. Pick Draining Whip early on. Keen Mind also useful.  Go firearms, or albasters.

Start combat with Phantom Foes or Eyestrike, then Ringleader

Stats Per + Int.

 

Or you can go no sub class cipher, that would give you more options if you want be less psychic, but more telekinetic.

Edited by evilcat
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I always thought a pure telepath or enchanter type character would be fun in a game like this. Someone that relies entirely on stun, confusion, charm and domination. I figure cyphers won't get special dialogue options for reading peoples minds (do they?) but all the same I wondered if this could be done.

 

Cyphers do have some of these abilities. Maybe not as much as I'd like, and usually the depend on dealing damage. 

 

Perhaps a subclass with wizard or chanter could make a build like this? Thoughts?

 

 

Seems to me that the simple thing to do is only select Will-based cipher spells, in addition to the obvious ones related to holding/charm/domination. 

 

There may not be quite as many Will-based cipher spells as one would hope for.  And it might have been nice if ciphers were a lot more focused on Will-based attacks.  After all, it seems like that's what ciphers really are ... psionicists.   That said, that shouldn't have to mean that all will-based psionics need to be simply charm or holding.  There's no reason why they can't also be damage related or do other things.  But having said all that, I can see a good reason for NOT having all cipher mental attacks being strictly will based.  What if you run up against enemies that have amazingly high Will saves?  Ciphers would be essentially blocked from using their powers against such foes.  It'd be like being stuck with only piercing weapons while having to fight enemies that were immune to piercing attacks, though at least ciphers do have their own physical weapons to fall back on when their mental ones aren't cutting it.

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Ciphers do get special dialogue options, and i think more than others (druids also have some uniques).

You can go Beguiler. Pick Draining Whip early on. Keen Mind also useful.  Go firearms, or albasters.

Start combat with Phantom Foes or Eyestrike, then Ringleader

Stats Per + Int.

 

Or you can go no sub class cipher, that would give you more options if you want be less psychic, but more telekinetic.

 

This does seem like the only way to do it. Ranged weapons + beguiler + draining whip. Doesn't appear like there's anyway to pick up points without an attack, and because of that multi-classing with say, illusionist or enchanter wouldn't work that well (or a summoning chanter, which otherwise would be badassed as an option - summon creatures and turn the foes against each other). An an AoE based attack doesn't work that well for this either (bombing)

 

I'm fond of the dual pistols possible in this game. Maximising attack speed seems to work, so long as you seek out the unique items at higher level.  Shame though you can't build a character like this without the melee focus. 

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I always thought a pure telepath or enchanter type character would be fun in a game like this. Someone that relies entirely on stun, confusion, charm and domination. I figure cyphers won't get special dialogue options for reading peoples minds (do they?) but all the same I wondered if this could be done.

 

Cyphers do have some of these abilities. Maybe not as much as I'd like, and usually the depend on dealing damage. 

 

Perhaps a subclass with wizard or chanter could make a build like this? Thoughts?

 

 

Seems to me that the simple thing to do is only select Will-based cipher spells, in addition to the obvious ones related to holding/charm/domination. 

 

There may not be quite as many Will-based cipher spells as one would hope for.  And it might have been nice if ciphers were a lot more focused on Will-based attacks.  After all, it seems like that's what ciphers really are ... psionicists.   That said, that shouldn't have to mean that all will-based psionics need to be simply charm or holding.  There's no reason why they can't also be damage related or do other things.  But having said all that, I can see a good reason for NOT having all cipher mental attacks being strictly will based.  What if you run up against enemies that have amazingly high Will saves?  Ciphers would be essentially blocked from using their powers against such foes.  It'd be like being stuck with only piercing weapons while having to fight enemies that were immune to piercing attacks, though at least ciphers do have their own physical weapons to fall back on when their mental ones aren't cutting it.

 

 

That would have the added effect of maxing out will (ideal), and I believe there are talents to cause stun when other people try will attacks on you, which fits. 

 

Obviously a character like this would face enemies it couldn't do as much against. That's pretty much always an issue with this type of character - some enemies don't have minds (golems, undead). As you say, time to whip out a sword and be ineffective for a battle. 

 

But it is a shame there isn't a slight more will based focus. And there's no reason why there can't be will based damaging attacks, like the old "ego whip" in d20 games.  

 

One would also think that ciphers would get a variety of debuffs - producing weakness, fear, lowering attacks etc. But AFAIK, they don't. 

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That mindstalker build works pretty well. With the right talents you only need to recharge in combat, not attack first. It's weak at low level, but mid-higher level all those mind effecting abilities are kind of great. You just stun, fear and dominate everyone, and it changes the balance. Unless they are immune, then you have to fall back on rogue tactics.

 

There's quite few tricks for providing backstab condition too, from the rogue, and also bombs. 

 

There's a few items that add to it nicely too (there's a helmet with fear). It's not exactly what I wanted, but it's not far off. I had the two sentinels at the end, fighting each other - that was kinda fun. 

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Cipher really seems like the only valid choice rp wise.  Just consider cipher a psionicist that gets stronger as he/she fights.

 

Probably so, but the weapon aspect kind of ruins the flavour anyway. With a mindstalker, you can fall back on the illusion spells when your points run out, which helps minimise melee/range attacks. 

 

However I wonder is their a way you can build a cypher, so that their starting points are so high that you very rarely have to attack? 

 

I might see if I can do this. Perhaps with the right stats, subclass and talents you can get that starting figure high enough. 

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Cipher really seems like the only valid choice rp wise.  Just consider cipher a psionicist that gets stronger as he/she fights.

 

Probably so, but the weapon aspect kind of ruins the flavour anyway. With a mindstalker, you can fall back on the illusion spells when your points run out, which helps minimise melee/range attacks. 

 

However I wonder is their a way you can build a cypher, so that their starting points are so high that you very rarely have to attack? 

 

I might see if I can do this. Perhaps with the right stats, subclass and talents you can get that starting figure high enough. 

 

 

The maximum starting focus you can get at lvl 20 is 75. Using an empower point gets you to 190.

I tested a pure beguiler a bit, and the combination of beguiler+complete self was enough to decently sustain him in focus. Soul echo+empty soul, with a maxed perception give a lot of crits to restore focus.

 

Obviously, you will not do much damage but you will debuff and cc like there is no tommorow without having to use a weapon.

 

Useful abilities:

 

Eyestrike

Mental binding

Secret Horrors

Ring leader

Mind Plague

Time parasite (although it will not proc beguiler, it will proc the complete self, is completely op, and there are no really good deception spells past pl6)

Haunting chains for fluff if you have the focus to cast it.

Silent scream if you want a damaging spell. It will not proc beguiler, but will proc Complete Self

 

Passives:

Greater focus, Keen Mind, Complete Self, Soul's Echo, Empty Soul, and the rest of the good stuff (iron will+psychic backlash, shared nightmare, lingering echoes, rapid casting etc.)

 

If this is the playstyle that appeals to you, you should go for it, it will work. 

Edited by Myrtillo
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Cipher really seems like the only valid choice rp wise.  Just consider cipher a psionicist that gets stronger as he/she fights.

 

Probably so, but the weapon aspect kind of ruins the flavour anyway. With a mindstalker, you can fall back on the illusion spells when your points run out, which helps minimise melee/range attacks. 

 

However I wonder is their a way you can build a cypher, so that their starting points are so high that you very rarely have to attack? 

 

I might see if I can do this. Perhaps with the right stats, subclass and talents you can get that starting figure high enough. 

 

 

The maximum starting focus you can get at lvl 20 is 75. Using an empower point gets you to 190.

I tested a pure beguiler a bit, and the combination of beguiler+complete self was enough to decently sustain him in focus. Soul echo+empty soul, with a maxed perception give a lot of crits to restore focus.

 

Obviously, you will not do much damage but you will debuff and cc like there is no tommorow without having to use a weapon.

 

Useful abilities:

 

Eyestrike

Mental binding

Secret Horrors

Ring leader

Mind Plague

Time parasite (although it will not proc beguiler, it will proc the complete self, is completely op, and there are no really good deception spells past pl6)

Haunting chains for fluff if you have the focus to cast it.

Silent scream if you want a damaging spell. It will not proc beguiler, but will proc Complete Self

 

Passives:

Greater focus, Keen Mind, Complete Self, Soul's Echo, Empty Soul, and the rest of the good stuff (iron will+psychic backlash, shared nightmare, lingering echoes, rapid casting etc.)

 

If this is the playstyle that appeals to you, you should go for it, it will work. 

 

 

I created a second build like this, with ranged weapons as advised above. It works pretty well I think, better than the mindstalker - more ability options, especially lower cost powers. Still some dependence on attacks, but not a lot - and at least you can recoup a little with criticals, and have some power boosts like range and speed. 

 

The famypr staff makes a nice addition (or just the item ability if you mod it in), so you have a dominate that's not points dependant. 

 

Tis still a shame that there's nothing that trades off attack ability for self-generated focus points, but this is as close as one can get. 

 

I hope there's cipher dialogue options in the DLC. Definately a more colourful character than the rangers, monks, paladins and rangers I've played in a million dnd/pathfinder games. When one plays those things too much, one ends up gravitating to weirdness - strange preist characters, swashbucklers, psionicists, summoners etc. 

 

I once played a ascetic pacificist, with an aura of peace, lol. It was actually OP, but totally weird.

Edited by drael6464
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