Master Veq-Riin

in order of appearance... FAVORITES T3-M4 I love this little guy. What can I say? I love R2-D2, and although T3 was developed later, he seamlessly anticipates Artoo's character. It's great that he has his own mission on Nar Shadaa that makes a difference in the plot, and the fact that he comes up with the idea on his own. Besides, in the Prologue, he's the hero! Also, it's hilarious when T3 laughs at Atton after he asks Bao-Dur not to laugh before asking Bao-Dur's opinion about his chances of hooking up with the exile. Kreia Despite her manipulation, I loved her at the end. She was the most complex character, able to see that LS and DS are part of a whole--one can't exist without the other; she also doesn't delude herself that being Force sensitive isn't necessarily better than being ordinary. She could only know all of this by having been both LS and DS, in addition to not having Force powers at all. Her resentment and revenge stem from her quest for truth--for others to be able to admit certain truisms (you can survive without Force powers) instead of maintaining their ignorant arrogance. She reminds me of the type of teacher/mentor that you hate while you're studying with them because they treat like you crap, but later on you realize they did it to prepare you for something even more difficult in your future and if necessary, to be able to accept your limitations. Atton I didn't like him the first time I played, but he grew on me the second time. His backstory is interesting and to me, surprising in its intensity and violence considering that he keeps up a nonchalant facade and is sometimes self-effacing about his abilities. However, if you play LS, he seems to jump on the LS Jedi bandwagon a little too quickly. I mean, he was a Sith assassin and hated Jedi during the Jedi Civil War, after all. Even though he left the Sith, it still seemed a little too easy to make him LS. Still, his comments are funny ("Does this mean you won't be putting us into force cages again?"). I admit that at first, he couldn't compare to Carth, but now I realize he's just different. Also, I was a little put-off by his forwardness when I first walked into the prison in my underwear, but I got over it. Why do the NPC women always get the good underwear? It isn't fair. Mira Her attitude was refreshing; I appreciate the bad-ass chick with the vulnerability inside. I didn't particularly like the wrist launcher, but she rocks with blaster pistols. Plus, I appreciated her thoughts regarding how it is that I manage to stay in shape and still look like I did in the old holorecordings. :D SO-SO Bao-Dur I loved Bao-Dur immediately, and I admit that his calling me "General," helped bolster my confidence. OK, and my ego. Also, his intelligence and technical skills are useful. Unfortunately, as the game moves on, his dialogue is limited and so he bored me. I do like his sardonic sense of humor, however, and I just think he looks cool. Visas She was helpful in providing information about her Master, and her backstory and species are interesting and contribute to the plot, but like Atton, it seemed too easy too persuade her to become LS. DISLIKES Disciple He's the guy whose knowledge and abilities you appreciate, but he fawns over you too much, using pathetic cliches to describe your strength and beauty. Definitely needs the "friendship" talk. G0-T0 Did he have a purpose other than to sabotage your attempt to trigger the mass shield generator on Malachor V? As for Goto the man, I couldn't figure out what he wanted. He says that either the Jedi or the Sith have to be united, but that he doesn't want the Sith to win because they...something about screwing up the galaxy? And what was the point of placing a bounty just so he could "command" you to save the Republic? Mandalore Just before meeting him the first time I played, I remember thinking that I missed Canderous. Unfortunately, he didn't have much of a role except to get you to Iziz. But his dry sense of humor that's especially funny because he believes he's being serious, shows how well-developed his character is. One of my favorite lines is when, just as you board the Ravager he growls, "I've been waiting ten years for this. It's time to do things the old-fashioned way!" HK-47 Maybe when I'm able to get him to reveal more, I'll like him better. I'm just so sick of his declaratories: "Statement: blah blah blah," "Query: blah blah blah?" And so on.

Another thing you can do is beat Gederi (sp? Duros guy) three times, Dahnis (Twi'lek female), and the Champ at pazaak. The Champ won't show up until you beat the other two. If Atton is with you, he'll "handle" Dahnis, so you won't actually have to play against her. Here's the important part that I was unable to do the second time--you have to fix the pazaak-playing droid before the Champ (who's a Chadra-Fan, the same species as the batlike creature near the entrance to the entertainment sector) will show up to challenge you. I didn't have enough Computer/Repair points to fix the droid, and I don't think it matters if Bao-Dur is with you. If you can't fix her, the Champ won't show up. Anyway, if you become a pazaak shark, the Exhange will definitely notice, and you won't have to pay the Chadra-Fan by the door 2,000 credits to talk to the Exchange.

Do you have points in Security? If not, have you tried bashing the locked doors in the final tomb open? It won't work for the door that you first enter through, but it should work for the other three. I don't know whether or not talking to Kreia repeatedly is a bug; both times I've played I've had to talk to her twice before being able to continue. I'm fairly certain that whether or not you stand by her only counts toward LS/DS points, not whether or not you'll be able to find your way out.

According to Kreia after you defeat her, the three Masters and Atris aren't the Lost Jedi. The Lost Jedi are Visas, Disciple or Handmaiden, and Atton. I'm not sure if Mira can become a Jedi; at least, I haven't been successful, and the same for Bao-Dur. I won't argue whether or not this makes sense--it's just what she tells you. I played as LS female, so I didn't get the cutscene with Bastila. Maybe Kreia has a different explanation if your PC is a male.

Answers, at last! I just finished playing a second time as LS, and I got a lot of options to ask Kreia about in the end: what will happen to your friends; who loved you, how, and why; what will happen to all the places you visited; about Remote; what will happen to Mandalore and the Mandalorians (with an allusion to Jango Fett); what will happen to the Republic; where Revan went; why she could never be with Carth; what she's searching for; who the Lost Jedi really are. It actually makes for a very satisfying ending. I'll post more details in my blog in the near future. (Link in my sig.)

Third time playing. After leaving Peragus, Atton asks what happened to your lightsaber. If you don't avoid the question, you can eventually tell him its color. Viridian and silver are options, but I'm not sure that cyan is. So this time around, I chose silver. When you confront Atris the first time and she ignites your old lightsaber, the color is silver. In the holorecording of your trial, your lightsaber is, again, silver. So maybe depending on the color you choose, that's what it will show in the cutscenes. When I bought the Jedi artifacts from Jorran, it contained a cyan crystal. I bought a second silver crystal from the Duros brothers (I think). And at this point (just arrived on Malachor) I have 4 silver crystals total. Unfortunately, I can't recall where I got the other 2. I also have an orange crystal that I found in a footlocker at the Academy, and a bronze crystal in a double-bladed lightsaber I found in the hidden tomb. On Onderon, I found a viridian crystal in the Royal Museum. All of these in one game, whereas the first time I played, I got the silver and viridian crystals from Sion.

I found a double-bladed lightsaber containing a bronze crystal in the hidden tomb on Korriban. I also had an orange crystal I found in a footlocker at the Academy. When I got back to the ship, I upgraded two single lightsabers so that one had the bronze and the other had the orange, and when they're in your hands, the colors are similar, except that the bronze is just the slightest bit lighter. Actually, the bronze isn't really a crystal because on the menu, it's shaped like a piece of metal.

They're in the prison. If you can't access it or the cells are empty, then there probably is something wrong. Even if you play DS, you should still be able to get to them because you need them for the rest of the game.

Is it possible you mean the dead salvagers' datapads you found in the sub-level? Of the three times I've played, Zherron was never found to be corrupt.

Hmm...one of the three doors should say "back to Shyrack Cave" or something like that.

The Yuuzhan Vong are the threat faced by the New Republic. However, this seems a little unlikely because the YV aren't revealed until thousands of years later. Who knows?

So then it is possible that the Sith teachings Revan studied on Malachor consisted of the Rakatans and the Star Forge, which is the conclusion of mine that you cite. It's also possible that Kreia wouldn't have known about this--why would Revan tell her? Regardless of where Revan learned of the Inifinite Empire and all its trappings, I'm still at a loss as to why Goto doesn't know about the Star Forge, which was where this was headed. Thanks for the info, btw! After a while, I skipped through the Rakatan history lessons in the first game. :D

The first time playing I got a silver and a viridian crystal off of Sion at the Academy. I'm playing for the second time now and got one silver from Jorran after rescuing him from the Enclave sub-level. I accidentally got him killed by laigreks the first time I played and only got the moisture vaporator thing. I have a second silver crystal, but I can't remember where I got it; I'm pretty sure it was from one of the Duros brothers.

So Kreia wasn't Revan's first Master? Considering how s/he turned out, and that the Council refused to blame the Masters' Jedi pedagogy as the reason why some of the Jedi fell during the time of the Mandalorian Wars, this is an important point. But probably not worth pursuing. Thanks for the info. But how did the Exile escape? On the Ravager, too? Or do I find out if I play DS? Also, was Nihilus a Republic soldier, or a Jedi?

Previous questions answered? unanswered? I took it that Carth/other admiral was wanting to keep you safe or put you under protection because of something they though Revan may be uncovering on the outer rim. It's possible they thought that you were the entire key for unraveling the mystery of what Revan may be up to. I guess they thought your ability to cut yourself off from the force was an ability they felt pertinent to unraveling the mystery of what this "shadow" force was all about. I took it that you were on your way to Telos when Sion attacked the Harbinger and then Kreia rescued you on the Ebon Hawk. I am still a little confused though on the whole Sion/Kreia angle and why they were at odds over you, but yet when they met on the Harbinger they seemed to be working together, or at least, not on extremely bad terms (even though he did chop her hand off). The Council was tight-lipped about your ability to sever yourself from the Force, so I don't think Carth could have known about this. Maybe you can clarify: the "shadow" force or "greater threat" that Revan perceived is Sion and Nihilus, right? Also, was this a pre- or post-Star Forge revelation on Revan's part? Because if it's post-Star Forge, wouldn't that presume that Revan was LS at the end of KotOR? Or does this have to do with Revan still "saving" the Republic even though s/he became a Sith? Either Kreia was working with Revan (or working with him on the surface but really had ulterior motives he/she wasn't aware of), or Revan simply ditched or lost the Ebon Hawk for some reason. Either way, I doubt Revan is dead. Obsidian obviously left the whole Revan angle open for part III. I was kidding. However, I don't think that Revan, especially a female Revan, would have just ditched the ship, considering how attached Carth is to it ("a little battered but it was still home"). But that isn't a surprise, is it, because Carth is so mushy and whiny. He doesn't say he is unfamiliar with them, he simply says he doesn't know a whole lot about them and has never heard of such a "strong" bond as you describe. Then again, all the masters said the same thing, so obviously Kreia has some knowledge they don't have due to her years of esoteric Jedi study. OK, but in both KotORs, Vrook strikes me as a big hypocrite. Why is he so secretive to Revan and the Exile? Does/Did he have an ultierior motive? Like killing the Exile in KotORII?

Excellent points, Tanthius--thank you! To continue the discussion... I obviously couldn't get the quote thing to work right, and I'll be happy to edit this, I'm just not sure how. I had to leave out my answer that the Sith I refer to in the Clone Wars Era was the ideal, not the race. Yes, I remember this recording. I also remember thinking (because in my own mind at that point, I was still in my "Revan" character): "I knew he never liked me." In retrospect, I don't think he liked either of the two. But after successfully conquering the mercs (as LS), doesn't Vrook acknowledge how strong in the Force you really are? Maybe Vandar and the other Masters didn't realize this, either, at the time of the recording? Yes, this is a tough one. I do remember Kreia saying that, and now that I think about it, the Masters in KotOR tell the PC that Revan also studied Jedi history. (Maybe that's why you couldn't access the archives in the Enclave?) The reason I came to this conclusion, which of course, is just one of many possible theories, is because in KotOR, the Rakatans were portrayed as having such a powerful empire that no one was able to surpass it once the information (the Star Maps, perhaps) about the Star Forge was concealed. On the other hand, we aren't given a timeline for when the Rakatan empire was in its golden age, but my guess is that it was before the Great Hyperspace War, since KotOR takes place 1,000 years after that. I did notice her evasiveness over this issue, and agree that neither Kreia nor Goto seemed aware of the Star Forge. If based on my premise that Kreia's quest was for truth, then you're certainly right--there wouldn't be a reason she'd lie to your PC. However, since the Star Forge was destroyed five years prior, wouldn't Goto know about it? He would be more likely to lie, and given his position in "galactic economics," how he could he not know about this Republic historical event? The PC doesn't know about it because s/he was in exile somewhere, which could also explain why Kreia doesn't know, but since Goto is a powerful crimelord, he'd have to know. Or if he didn't, based on his characterization, I'm convinced he would have done research. I guess it depends on whether or not the Republic reported the existence and subsequent destruction of the Star Forge to the galaxy; I suppose they could have attributed the mass production of Malak's fleet to something else. Since the Star Forge was "Force-powered," maybe the Senate wanted to keep that from the Republic's citizens because of the negative attitude towards anyone able to wield the Force. But now I'm afraid I'm starting to slip into a conspiracy theory, so I'll stop. Why does this imply anything about Sion or Nihilus? This isn't very well articulated, is it? When do you suppose the Trayus Academy was established--before or after the the Battle of Malachor? It's a safe bet, isn't it, that this was Kreia's brainchild--Trayus, Darth Traya? So, did Sion and Nihilus fight in the Mandalorian Wars? This leads me back to the question of power between Revan and your PC--why is it that you're the one to whom Atton, anyway, ascribes the destruction of not just Malachor, but the entire Mandalorian race? Why not Revan? Even Goto and HK hint that this was all your doing. Pfft--everyone blames Peragus on you, so why not Malachor, too? With HK and Goto, however, it's only what I read between the lines, so it's possible that I'm wrong because the dialogue left too much out. It's one thing to hint, but shouldn't there be a resolution later, that the protagonist stumbles upon him/herself? And therein lies the problem, don't you think? The intertextuality in KotOR II should be seamless, which it more likely would have been if the original writers had a hand in the new script. Unfortunately, I don't know the extent of BioWare's participation in the development of KotOR II, or if they were involved at all. One of the things that fascinates me about the EU is how so many different authors are able to contribute and keep story arcs going. The most recent examples of this that I've read is Barbara Hambly's Children of the Jedi followed by Kevin J. Anderson's Champions of the Force, neither of which I liked but that's another story, and Dark Horse's ongoing Republic and Empire series. The collaboration and sharing of notes/ideas behind the scenes is apparent. The EU isn't without inconsistencies (Boba Fett), but considering the amount of literature in the canon, LucasBooks has done an amazing job. So what gives, LucasArts? Yes, I agree with you that Revan may have learned about the Star Forge on his/her own. But as for Kreia hating the Force, which I didn't completely understand either ("Then why do you use it?" "Because it's like a poison." ), I don't think she felt this way until she found out about the Exile and how s/he is able to live without the Force, that is, without having that "sixth sense." Having the ability to feel others' deaths and the living's thoughts without being able to shut them out would certainly be overwhelming and drive anyone crazy (kind of like Streen, in the Jedi Academy Trilogy). Maybe that's why Kreia hates it? Is it certain there will be a part III? If so, then I hope they compare notes, whether or not Obsidian or someone else does it! I am, however, impressed with the way Obsidian handled the male/female Revan issue. There were huge flame wars over Revan's gender in the BioWare forums, which Obsidian has hopefully extinguished. Still, it remains problematic if a KotOR III were to use Revan as the PC, in terms of character development for the supporting roles. If you're male, will Bastila be around? If you're female, will it be Carth (yes!)? Then again, I'm not a developer so I have no idea how they program what's spawned and what isn't.

This is exactly what I said in my first post. Players shouldn't have to guess. But it's human nature to want resolution, which is why I think some people are creating their own stories. Besides, it's fun. Because she didn't want anyone in the mining facility to find her? They'd ask too many questions. I thought this, as well. When my PC asks, "What happens now," and Kreia says, "The Apprentice must kill the Master," I thought it meant that even though I was LS for the whole game, it seemed that I was deluded the entire time and was fated to be DS. That ending might have even been better, actually. Is any logic truly simple? That would have been me. I do recall that she and Malak searched for the Star Maps in order to find the Star Forge. What I meant was that perhaps Revan learned of its existence while on Malachor V. As for Revan finding the Academy, well, who knows? If you played the last game, you'd recall that Carth said that "something corrupted Revan" out there--maybe Obsidian's answer is Trayus Academy. I don't consider myself a gamer because I don't play very many, and this is the first Obsidian game I've played, so I don't know if they were being greedy about just this game, or all of their games.

Doesn't Kreia criticize her for not being able to face the truth, or admitting the truth, something like that? By immersing herself in Sith teachings, Atris could easily have deluded herself into thinking that she was learning how the "other half lives," without realizing that she'd fallen nor caring to admit it. A lot of Jedi (Ulic Qel-Droma, Quinlan Vos, Luke Skywalker, et al.) believed they could conquer the Sith by studying their ways, even infiltrating their camps. Of these three, Luke was the only one who survived; Ulic lost his Force powers; and it still remains to be seen what will happen to Quin. Being a Jedi historian and exposed to Sith studies certainly leaves Atris open to, if not being a Sith, then at the very least, a dark Jedi. As far as teaching any sort of Jedi piety to the Handmaidens, well, based on the circular argument in the dialogue (non-Force sensitives are to guard the Jedi; so who guards the non-Force sensitives? Atris, because she's a Jedi, etc.), the Handmaidens are nothing more than tools who blindly follow their leader. This is part of the main plot theme--that the Exile did what s/he (and many others) knew was right, in spite of the Council's decision to wait before fighting in the Mandalorian Wars. In addition, the Jedi Masters could/would not admit the possibility of being wrong. By believing themselves infallible, which Atris is not exempt from, they bring about their own downfall. Jedi are not perfect.

She could have used the Breath Control power. Right before you go into the Jarr Jarr Tekk she tells you that some Jedi have been able to hold their breath for days, which suggests that she can do it. *shrug* Agreed, and I even played as a female. I'm going through a second time now to see if I can complete all the side quests (such as they are), and I'm tired of having only 2 or 3 options of questions to ask Visas. The lack of dialogue gives me the impression that she's just Nihilus's messenger. Big deal. I'd at least like to learn something from the people in my party. It's really too bad that LucasArts set such a short deadline. I remember being surprised when I first heard the release date, and that this actually came out "on time." Rebel Commando was supposed to come out last September, so I figured that KotOR II would be late, too.

I, too, was horribly disappointed by the ending (I played as LS female). Whether or not there will be a KotOR III is irrelevant, because as someone already mentioned, the game should be able to stand on its own. Too much resolution would leave nothing for us to reflect upon, but, as is the case with KotOR II, too many holes leave players guessing, which a well-developed story shouldn't do. Oh, where to begin? OK, I'll tackle Kreia's motive. In this post, anyway. :D Although Kreia suggests that you can follow Revan's path, this does not mean that you literally track Revan down. For some reason, I convinced myself that Revan is dead (maybe because I was still hoping for another Carth romance). As such, when she suggests following Revan's path, I interpreted it as taking the same space lane in a figurative sense--maybe to continue where Revan left off, searching for the underlying cause of the Mandalorian Wars. Kreia, Sion, and Nihilus could have been what Revan searches for at the end of KotOR--the larger threat that s/he senses but can't recall because of the mindwipe. I'm not entirely convinced that Kreia engineered the entire situation out of revenge. Perhaps that's what spurred the idea, but throughout the game, she remains neutral (she was cast out by both the Jedi and the Sith, after all). By the end, what she wants is for people to face the truth--that Force sensitives can choose to live a life without it; that this is the very reason the Council was frightened by the Exile and the real reason you were banished. The Jed lived their entire lives using the Force as a "crutch," so to speak and couldn't imagine leading a life without it. Kreia also wants you to face the truth about yourself--that you defied the will of the Force and chose to forge your own path by turning away not just from the dark side, but from the Force itself. After having been rejected by both the dark and light sides, she envies your ability to do this--not maliciously, but in more of a wistful manner. One of the things I have trouble reconciling is that, if the Exile is such an inspiration and able to influence others, how is that different from Revan? In KotOR, characters continually remark on Revan's abiliity to gain loyalty. In KotOR II, they say the same about you. Additionally, everyone, including the Masters, comments on how strong you are in the Force. Wouldn't that make you more powerful, or at the very least, equal to Revan? This is why I chose the response that the reason I went to the Mandalorian Wars was not to follow Revan, but because I made a choice to protect the innocent. This is also why, when the Mandalorians were defeated and the threat to others extinguished, my character returned to the Council instead of following the Sith. I imagine that the Sith teachings Revan studied on Malachor referred to the Rakatans and the Star Forge. Anyone who controlled it would have the potential to conquer the galaxy as the Rakatans had done in the past, and the best course of action was to destroy it. Unfortunately, Revan was corrupted along the way, when she realized the extent of the power that the Star Forge held. In addition, Kreia implies that she was Revan's first Master, and I believe she says that at the end of Revan's training (which coincides with the end of the Mandalorian Wars?), Revan returned to his/her original Master. Presumably, Kreia was already on Malachor and had already established the Trayus Academy, since she does acknowledge her participation in the Mandalorian Wars, which would explain her presence on Malachor. By teaching Revan about the Star Forge, Kreia could have begun leading Revan down a dark path, without Revan necessarily realizing it. Perhaps Kreia knew that Revan would be overcome by the Star Forge, and subsequently, become Kreia's apprentice. At the beginning of KotOR, Revan had already been defeated by Malak. This implies that Sion and Nihilus already rejected Kreia, but because they chose to remain in "the shadows," Revan became the Dark Lord. Following Revan's path at the end of KotOR II could be that of redemption--the Jedi Order's. At this point in time, many Republic citizens fear the Jedi because of their inability (or unwillingness) to distinguish the Jedi from the Sith. That your character has the power to inspire followers enables you to rebuild the Academy (not necessarily on Dantooine or Telos--the Jedi Academy in the larger sense), thus redeeming the Jedi in the Republic's eyes. Conversely, you can establish a Sith empire. However, when conflating KotOR II with the Star Wars canon, it makes sense that, if the Exile chooses to continue a life with the ability to feel the Force, s/he re-establishes the Order. By the time of the Clone Wars, the Jedi were once again in good standing with the Republic, so someone had to have convinced the rest of the galaxy that Jedi = good. Finally, the Sith were believed to be non-existent, which reinforces the possibillity that the Exile restores the Order. ---------- Questions: --Why was Malachor a cultural taboo to the Mandalorians? --Are there female Mandalorians? --If you play as an LS female, you don't see Bastila in the cut scene. Does this mean that she, or at least Jolee and Juhani, were killed in Katarr along with Zhar, Dorak, and Vandar? I find it hard to believe that Jolee would have exiled himself again after the events of the Star Forge (assuming you played LS). --Is the reason your safe arrival on Telos such a high priority is so Carth can ask if you've seen Revan because he's so lovesick (again, if you're female)? Wouldn't that be an abuse of power? --What were you doing on the Harbinger in the first place? --Another reason I believe Revan is dead is because I can't imagine him/her giving up the Ebon Hawk without a fight. Nor can I see Revan putting it up for collateral in a pazaak game. So how did Kreia end up with it? Unless Revan did bet the Hawk on pazaak and lost to Kreia. --Was anyone else reminded of the Phoenix myth when the Hawk (coincidentally another feathered being) miraculously rose from the ashes of Malachor? --Why does Vrook tell you that he's unfamiliar with Force bonds (isn't that what he said?), when that was the premise of reviving Revan in KotOR? --Nihilus attacks Citadel Station with a Sith fleet, doesn't he? So why is Azkul a merc? Also, if he was trained at "Malak's Academy," wouldn't he have Force powers? ---------- Erm...thanks for reading this far.