Cantousent

I guess I'm a tactless, apathetic gamer, but I thought I pointed out why your basis point was nuts. As far as the issue concerning attacking villagers, that's probably an issue that encompasses more than the developer. Undoubtedly, that particular conundrum stems from the licenseholder, the publisher, and the developer. As far as wandering around, I see that as your strongest point in this particular mess. While it's still subjective, you can argue that the way the character travels overland in NWN is better than the wolrdmap in NWN2. ...Or at least that the NWN2 worldmap is poorly implemented. Once again, I don't see an inherent superiority in the way NWN works in this regard, but I'm sure we can come up with ways to improve NWN2. I usually don't second guess the devs when it comes to these issues, but I certainly have no problem voicing my opinion. Moreover, I welcome your right to do the same. However, this brings us back to one of my main points. As I've consistently said, I don't see NWNs method on most of these issues as an improvement. You'd be much more likely to bend my ear with making points about NWN2 rather than doggedly judging it harshly against NWN. I don't consider NWN all that great of a game. It was good. I finished it twice. I finished, I believe, two modules. When it first hit the shelves, I joined some ridiculous guild until I realized that NWN wasn't all that great. Making points about NWN2 as a stand alone product would have been far better for creating a larger discussion. Not only that, it would have been a far more effective way to attack the game. The second you nailed the parchment to the church door, you sacrificed some of your credibility on this issue. ...At least to me. I can't speak for others. To be candid, however, Tigranes has many, many posts in which he complains about NWN2. The difference is, he doesn't come across as a NWN zealot. You get the feeling that he wants improvements in the grander scheme of things, rather than a return to the old model. Frankly, if you prefer NWN, the game still exists. I hope you find things to enjoy in NWN2, but it's not like NWN died the second the sequel hit the shelves. If you truly believe that NWN surpasses NWN2 in every way, or in virtually every way, then you're simply going to be forced to return to it.

I think your points as a group are by and large ridiculous. Some of the points you make are actually valid, but more for NWN2 in general rather than as a comparison between NWN and NWN2. Overall, your presentation has made it hard to figure out which points have any real weight. For instance, you rail against Obsidian because of the detail on the character clothing. When Sawyer cites WotC's role as the licensor, you ignore him or make comments that essentially pain him a liar. That's simply not reasonable. This is especially true since it doesn't make sense for Sawyer to lie regarding this issue. Moreover, what he says seems reasonable in light of other DnD games we've seen in recent years. Blaming Obsidian because WotC doesn't allow for greater latitude doesn't just seem wrongminded. It's small-minded. It's petty. It's a non-issue and raling about it detracts from other, legitimate points you have. The weapons/armor issue is a different beast. We could have a more or less reasonable discussion regarding this aspect. I don't agree with you on the issue because, simply put, it's nuts to suggest that the way designers depict weapons and armor in these games is "accurate" or "realistic" at any rate. Folks want realism, but only realism on their terms. A number of folks running around dueling with halberds or pikes? Sure. :Eldar's shaking his head chuckling icon: All we need now is someone to come along and say that firearms killed armor. Then someone can say that cannons brought the end of fortifications. Then Sawyer can jump in with both feet and lecture us at length concerning air power. Realism is great, but the sheer number and types of weapons Bioware depicted in NWN1 was not particularly realistic. It wasn't really meant to be. That was a concession made to fun rather than realism. Of course, in addition to being a web-designers, graphic artists, and authories on all game design issues, I'm sure some of you folks have a PhD in history or some such. ...But we can't get that far. We're too busy discussing whether or not Sawyer is telling us the truth. You'd really better be careful about insinuating folks are lying around here. The fact that WotC's double standard regarding the license is well known and disputing it undermines other arguments. You guys don't have to die on every hill. Choose one that makes more sense.

It is true that the defenders should use discretion in their responses. However, soul made a statement concerning my "apathy" because I didn't agree with his point. It's not a matter of the defenders rising up en masse to attack the poor, blameless detractors. Of course, we should be respectful in our discussions. Still, a little heat on the issue isn't so bad as long as the thread doesn't devolve into an outright flamewar. Once that happens, we close the thread, give folks friendly warnings, issue an official warning, or delete the entire thing and forbid the issue as a discussion in its current form. We haven't reached that point yet, but folks in this thread are getting a little close to the edge. For example, please stop calling each other liars, tards, or other such names. I will delete these references in the future and I won't look kindly on folks who use these labels. Liar is a charged term in English, and folks on both sides should avoid using it on others. Tard is simply offensive, and future use will likely result in a warning. You can bash each other a bit. For example, saying I'm "apathetic" is a bit silly, but it's not particularly offensive in and of itself. Calling someone retarded is over the line. You guys are smart. You know where to draw the line. I shouldn't have to draw it for you. EDITed for clarity.

I always thought the best argument folks made about NWN revolved around the toolset and multiplayer aspects. NWN probably would have looked a lot better to me if it had not been for the tilesets. With those, however, it really looked bad. Just plain ugly bad. Later NWN designs, from the expansions, looked much better. Still, the tilesets have always looked ugly to me. Once again, and in this I've been in agreement with Tigranes for some time, the original intent of these two threads has not been to compare two similar games so much as to bash one. Let's see a real comparison of the two games. Why do some folks like NWN better and some prefer NWN2? There's a post there somewhere, but since I've actually arrived at my gaming rig, I'm going to take the opportunity to play the game rather than talk about it. :D

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Raging against the spell effects in the game will save the industry? Other than the fact that it's downright pretentious to assume that what I find aesthetically pleasing somehow makes me inferior to you, soul, do you really suggest that the spell effects bubbles are a make or break issue. Is that the one item that made you throw up your hands and deride NWN2? If that's the case, then I don't see much hope in finding any common ground. I know. I know. You're a graphic artist and work in the industry and we should probably all concede that your word is both final and authoritative, but I won't make any such concession. I like NWN2's graphics. The tilesets for NWN were horrible. I mean, really bad. Even then, I didn't agree much with folks who ragged on the graphics, which some people did when NWN hit the shelves. I'm interested in the game. I want good graphics. I think they're important. ...But spell effect bubbles? That's pretty damned nit picky.

I really don't care about cloth maps or bound documentation. I want stuff I can use in the game. I might be happy with a soundtrack.

Please don't flaunt the depraved nature of your personalities to the board. :Cant's grinning icon:

In that case, sir, I'll doff my hat to your discerning eye and hope that your efforts lead to increased quality in future games.

This fully buffed human wizard fluff is ridiculous. Sawyer is perfectly right to mock it. If he isn't mocking it, he should be. What the hell? NWN's graphics weren't all that great when the game hit the shelves and they certainly aren't better than NWN2. Seriously, I can see some point to a few of these arguments, but the spell buff effect rant is just ridiculous. That's the deal breaker for you? :Cant's shaking his head with a bemused smile icon:

Maybe we should have a "rig specs for NWN2" thread. I mean, I've got a pretty hefty rig, but it's some 6 months old or so. I'd figure that some of you would have something a lot more powerful. I keep hearing about how NWN2 runs poorly even on high end rigs. That doesn't make sense. I've got a fairly high end rig that handles NWN2 just fine. Oh, there are things that I don't like all that much, the way terrain effects the camera when you first enter some areas. Still, the game looks good. Even Oblivion, which is the sort of graphical benchmark of the day for CRPGs, isn't really all that and a bag of chips when it comes to character creation. It was good, but I could never get the exact look I wanted. Hell, even Tiger Woods 2004 had a better character creation model.

In all honesty, I don't think rift is trolling. He is, however, ranting. That's fine. Some of you might have noticed me rant a time or two. Fair enough. However, I've glossed over most of rift's posts. I haven't ignored everything, but I have tended to ascertain, at each point, whether there was some basis to make for a larger discussion. Most of his posts are merely diatribe. The underlying intention isn't really aimed at discussion rather than simple bashing. Nonetheless, some of his points do bear further discussion, even if the water is a muddied by his presentation. For example, there is a point to the argument concerning underground elevation. I can see where modders might like to have some elevation underground. Even so, the NWN tilesets were horrible. I didn't mind them at first, but I hated them by the end of my second game. I didn't even like them much the first time around. If we could have something as easy to implement as the NWN underground elevation, but without the ramp up/down effect of the tilesets, there could be a significant advantage to the consumer.

How much extra happiness would I get if I found a copy of the limited edition somewheres? I don't mind paying the extra, but I don't care about the nicknacks in the least. How many goodies would I find ingame? Oh, I guess I wouldn't mind having the soundtrack also. I'm a dweeb that way.

You know, the basis of this thread really doesn't have anything to do with a comparison between NWN and NWN2. The real point of the thread is to trash NWN2. You know, some folks prefer NWN and others prefer NWN2. A little debate or contention over the issue isn't such a bad thing. However, framing the conversation by stating, in your original post, that NWN2 is "[ b]oring, Linear, Ugly, Non Immersive, Easy, and Annoying..." doesn't sound promising as a rational foundation for a discussion of fine points. I like NWN2 better, but I can still accept reasonable arguments on either side of the issue. I seriously doubt rift can make such a claim in light of his initial post.

Rift, do these awards prove that NWN is better than NWN2? I'm just curious what we're using as our yardstick for better and worse. For example, you speak more or less authoritatively in your first post. I don't accept you as an authority, but I respect your right to hammer a parchment to the church door. The thing is, you've stopped speaking as an authority in your own person and rely on various awards. ...But that seems to undermine the simple strength, such as it is , of your original argument. When you speak as yourself, you cite experiences within both games. When you cite awards, you forgo actual experience concerning each game and substitute an abstract "greatness-o-meter." That's a fallacy. Nevertheless, you have every right to voice opinions on this board. I disagree with you for a variety of reasons. First of all, I disagree with your points as a fellow gamer. Second of all, you've completely thrown aside any pretense of impartiality when you make statements like: "50) Boring, Linear, Ugly, Non Immersive, Easy, and Annoying are all things I did not feel in NWN1 on release. I couldnt drag myself away from that game for weeks, then months, then finally years. NWN2 was back on my shelf in the first week after I forced myself to play it." Finally, I

I don't know if I'm lucky, but my rig has no problems with running the game. No stutters. No slowdowns. Nothing. At least not yet. As far as the graphics go, I don't think they look dated. Do they look as good as Oblivion? Weighing everything together, no. Oblivion looks better. however, the graphics are well done. The only criticism that remains throughout the game is the weird resting and dying schemes. The problem I have with them is that it verges away from DnD in a particularly jarring way. That was part of NWN, so it's not like we haven't had time to get used to it. As far as bugs go, I remember a slew of them from NWN. One gave me unlimited spells in one of my spell slots. A bunch of silly things like that. I'm usually pretty careful about discounting other folks complaints about bugs, but I can't speak for them either. I haven't had any game stopping bugs so far. If I do, I'll let you all know. In the meantime, I'm glad that, once again, I've managed to escape the nasty bugs that seem to plague other folks when they play these games.

Okay, I think I should give this demo a chance. At least I can play that on the computer I have available here in Sunny So Cal. I'll see if I agree with Vol after I'm done. EDIT: Anyone know where I can download the demo?

Great game. Unfortunately, I won't be able to play again for a few days. There are little things about the game I find frustrating. I don't like the death scheme. I don't like the resting scheme. I've also noticed the inaccessible doors that play so prominently in some detractors

After playing quite a bit more of this, I have to say this time Sawyer better not downplay his achievement. I swear to goodness, if he ridicules his efforts on this one, I'm going to hunt him down and punch in the snot box. ...And he's younger and stonger than me, so that's no small doing.

Come on, they sound almost exactly the same. The exact same whiny delivery. The exact same smart alec responses. Face it Imoen :"> and Neeshka are one and the same.

Neeshka is Emoen with horns and spots on her forehead.

Vol, what would this place be without you? :D

I have officially moved into the "NWN2 is awesome and I love it" category. Now, to be fair, I haven't had any significant bugs. I also have a system powerful enough to play it with the bells and whistles enabled. Still, it's a great game and I'm having a blast. I liked Oblivion. I spent a lot of time praising Oblivion on these fora. NWN2 simply puts Oblivion to shame. It's the best CRPG to hit the mean streets this year. It's better than KotOR and KotOR 2, easily. However, as always, I must temper my unstinting praise by conceding that I have not finished. Until then, I can only say what I've thought thus far.

Why the hell isn't bevil in there. hahaha

That would pretty much nail the Bioware Junior coffin. I don't think it's a bad idea to do sequels for popular games. I certainly hope they weren't lying when they said they'd come out with some original ideas. I don't recall whether the original ideas came for a licensed setting or an original IP. At least they plan on coming out with a new game rather than a sequel.