@\NightandtheShape/@

Huh the PS3 is a console, I thought it was a George Foreman Grill... With a very expensive heating system. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> LOL! Kthx, Wii or PS3? In our primitave country of Australia we havent gotten PS3 yet, till March, kthxnotwaiting. Wii looks good, I hate consoles only because of controlers and their first person shooters really suckzorz. Wii looks great cos its like virtual technology type stuff. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Wii really does work for FPS's.

I know just what that's like. I had a simple bug and gave an estimate of a week. Turns out it wasn't so simple, and 3 weeks later, I finally had it nicked. Those extra two weeks weren't exactly happy times (though my job is a very laid back atmosphere), but you feel sheepish when you give a time and you miss it by two whole weeks. On the plus side, my boss bleeds grant money, and he understands it's a learning experience for me, so he's not overly worked up about it. I can only imagine what it'd be like when businesses and jobs are on the line <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Perminant crunch like at Troika... Ya know to meet milestones. Heck it took me 3 weeks to get the AI map working with a state machine (, because I needed to code for all the possible surface transitions, which involved graphing the objects AI maps... Oh it goes on, but I thought it'd take me about a week, but the general structuring did, then I had to wait for the required transitions to turn up, sometimes I sat there for an hour just waiting for the transition to happen... But ya know, so it the nature of making games, unpredicatable.

That was never the intention. It was always my intended meaning. I cleared it up for you and you begin thinking I mean the world is like a crpg... It's simple really grommy, I'll never be a great artist, I just can't draw stuff, I can try and learn and put alot of effort into improving those skills but it would be at the expense of some other skill due to the required time it would take... HA! You're an odd one.

I never stated what those weakness may be... It could be anything. In the case of Josh, those happend to be what I knew of him... He may walk right into this thread and dispute them. That weakness CAN be anything. Ain't nobody ever been an expert at everything... Crappy at the business side of making games, is a better description.

" I never said she was popular purely based upon looks, but she does indeed sell an image, which like it or not is part of marketing which obviously helps sales. There are other people involved in Britney Spear's career, in both promoting and development of what she does. I never said that marketing alone makes a product sell, it improves sales if there is a market for the said product. If there isn't a market there in the first place then naturally it won't sell... As you proove here, you are not part of the target market for panties, but if for some reason you needed to buy such a product as a gift, then you would be, no? I'm not disputing this at all. Mass appeal also doesn't mean GOOD!

It's a very simple one to make, popular doesn't mean it's good or even genius, music is very subjective... And sometimes a very personal thing. But I'm 100% certain nobody will care about Britney 100 years from now in the same manner that Wagner and such is spoke of. So basically your discounting the effect of marketing on sales as being an utterly pointless endevour? This is why I do not understand the idiosyncratic ways of Vologic.

Never stated that, just that some folks are not business minded, and those that are, have weaknesses in other places. The comedy is the fact you think I stated thus.

I'd wager arrogant, he's a coder... Most coders are, it's a trait that most wouldn't care to admit to, also probably niave, hoping he could indeed learn from his mistakes. Depends who they were working with at the publisher, some of those guys are really horrible pieces of crap that really will come in and say "Guys, pink is in so we want you to make all the grass pink". Serious, it's how they are... Publishers are ****, they're a parasitic entity. But in all seriousness, **** ups were made somewhere, if Cain says the publisher played a part in that, I'm 100% certain they did, they've never denied the fact they made awful mistakes as a business in terms of management and heck I'd never defend them for it either. Perhaps, as a businessman, but I'd certainly not turn down a beer with the guy to talk over code. Now you have resorted to personal insults, great nice to see we can keep it civil. Heh, I guess it's like alcoholism, gotta admit you got a problem first. Get a grip man, ain't nobody saying tim and co were great business men, not even themselves. Geez...

I think that goes for more than just games development. There is a reason why good project managers costs you a fortune. And why they are worth the investment <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Very true... So very very true.

Yes because hiring QA is so easy LMFAO and naturally it's a cheap investment LOL... Get real. How large do you think an effective QA team is? and what do you believe such a thing would cost? Something tells me that Troika won there deals with publishers because they were a mite bit cheaper on there quotes. More people buy Britney, than Burzum, does that mean I shouldn't enjoy what I enjoy? Truth is masses will buy what's sold to them, PS:Torment did okay, but with the right marketing... It would have done alot better. So your point Volo? That our opinions are different... I think I established that about 100 Troika threads ago . They did some things exceptionally well, others were poorly implemented, a bit like Obsidians new GFX engine in NWN2 Never stated that, that I can recall.

That's not the case, I was simply stating that what they did I liked, heck I bought Arcanum on a whim, didn't even know about the connection with Interplay at that point, didn't even know Tim Cain had worked on the damn thing... Don't be a fool, my point is simple, you cannot really say how good you may be at something until you actually give it a shot. My point as simple as I can make it for you Grommy, TIM CAIN != BIZ GENIUS, TIM CAIN == CODER. Now do you reckon those three guys knew they were gunna make huge mistakes on the business side? Sorry but, no matter how you badger me I still can't tell you how long it's gunna take me to FIND a bug, I can try and estimate how long it will take, this is done by taking the proposed problem, possible cause, and time to fix. That doesn't mean that you'd know straight away, a good coder generally can do this estimation very well. The games industry doesn't work to exacts, why do you think so many companies that can, DO work to a "It'll be done when it's done" policy. Having not worked with Josh I don't know what his skills are exactly, I can only assume from passing comments that have been had on forums. Josh don't draw art too great nor does he write breath taking dialogue, these are by his own admission, from what I can recall from conversations. That doesn't mean that josh doesn't have a talent for game mechanics and organising people around him with those talents he lacks. It's because his skills are stronger in one role over another, such folk are indeed great to have on any project. Designers, Artists, and Coders all speak a different language, creating a harmony can be hard, people like Josh are those great middle men I guess, and perhaps Tim and Co. Could have used someone like that, but ya know not being business minded people... I guess it didn't dawn on them early enough.

Bizzare to you perhaps, and maybe others, but it was indeed a unique idea, and I admit it probably needed a couple of months of fine tuning. The engine was basically a home brew engine that was cooked up, and made to work... That's pretty impressive, because at the end of the day the team that made the game was small. So you don't like the game, because it didn't fulfill the requirements that you placed upon it. What you find easy others find hard, I never found the combat easy nor did I find it to be boring. Most of the game seemed lifted from the module it's based on, it wasn't as well writ as Baldur's gate or Planescape Torment... That wasn't something I personally expected from it. I always saw it as an experiment that prooved D&D 3.5 could work exceptionally well in a computer enviroment. That engine was really lovely, it was executed so well, I'd really like to know what you thought was missing from it. Trokia at this point also split their focus onto too games, for a small business this is very dangerious, so in short a management problem, it was mainly from the article Tims project. It was a damn simple combat system that was so easy to use, heck I settled into it so quickly that I've never understood why people don't like it, it's just like any third person melee or first person shooter. For me it was easy to grasp and worked so well, but call it bad dude, call it whatever you like, it certainly DID what it set out to do and DID it well. Huh, I said time was an excellent coder. Which he is, but being as you know nothing about coding then you clearly don't have a damn clue how hard bug hunting can be, heck what do you know? Vologic does not compute.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks for clearing that up. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> actually, your question reaffirms our point. if Gromnir, who gots 0 experience in industry, is fully aware of pressures related to making a living working in an industry so inextricably beholden to THE QUARTERLY REPORT, then how much less of an excuse does timmy have for being so oblivious and naive? HA! Good Fun! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I guess he wasn't business minded, heck I'm not particularly, you obviously are... *Shruggs*. Business minded people don't make great games, they usually oversee the creative people who make them. That is why I asked, because at the end of the day, it's apples and oranges. I always think of epic as a great example of this, Tim Sweeny knows, because at the end of the day he's given it a shot, that he's not very good at managing his game studio, infact he admits that isn't where his talents lay, but he does know and trust someone with that role, forget the guys name, and Tim applies his talents to what he is best at, coding. The difference here was that Tim and Co, hadn't had the experience before in that area of the industry, but gave it a shot anyway, They're obviously not very good at running a studio, that does not mean that the games they created should be viewed as lesser simply because the company no longer exists.

I don't think arrogant would be the word... More, inexperienced, that's why obs got it so great Feargus has a hell of alot of experience. Trokia was three guys who worked togeather and had a shot at every devs dream, to make titles they wanted to make, they did it. None of them had the kind of management experience required to a run such a company and thus it failed. Tim Cain is a damn fine coder, I've read some of his papers on pathfinding that were certainly interesting to me atleast, you throw a coder into the role of a PR guy and or management and your screwed. I shall recall a certain conversation I had with a certain producer at a company that everyone should know called Core Design, and to point out bluntly "Coders don't know there head from there ass when it comes to time management", that cracked me up, but it's true... Coders really would rather play CoD all day LOL. I just think Trokia were talented individuals who gave there dream a shot, but they weren't talented in the biz stuff, where the code, art, and design they clearly were. They over estimated what they could do in the time available to them, simple as that but that is the game biz, it's almost impossible to say how long something is going to take... Heck why do you think NWN2 was held back longer than expected, it all goes of estimates and certain milestones for those estimates need to be made.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks for clearing that up.

Because that will make his observation more or less accurate? QFT <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I just that I think his observations neglect the internal workings and culture of games development...

bull. load of bull. making games has always been 'bout making money. furthermore, there ain't nothing 'bout the present model that prevents a developer likes troika from making good games. for chrissakes people, is not like 10 years ago the govt. stopped giving out grants to make games... is not like publishers sudden realized that they were in business to makes money for investors/shareholders. draw some sorta conclusions 'bout industry 'cause of failure of one developer? bah. most simple explanation for troika inability to makes a good game in spite of 3 attempts were that they simply weren't a competent developer... but for some reason peoples avoids simple answer in favor of wacky notions 'bout dying art 'n such. troika failed. come up with whatever reasons you want to explain, but if troika can't stay in business, then they cannot make games, good or bad. perhaps timmy tells self that reason troika failed is 'cause he were trying to make good games in a world that just wouldn't let him, but that is bull, and anybody that belies such nonsense is full of it too. HA! Good Fun! ps the fact that troika failed is a good thing. all the competent developers from troika who were stuck making crappy games 'cause troika were bad at business, has now found jobs at places likes relic and obsidian and bioware... places where their talents can be utilized to makes games that will actually gets played. congrats... the system works. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Grommy I have a question. Have you ever worked in the games industry?

Wow a perfect example of Vologic...

If something is difficult... Get better at it.

There are sides... What's the arguement? It's a purely subjective matters at the end of the day.

DM was pretty good in terms of combat

Bow doesn't cut it either because you aim perfectly well and still miss even though the arrow clearly hit... LOL

FPS with bows! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, enchanted knives. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No First Person Shooter means you have a projectile firing weapon. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm inclined to agree... You need a gun for a game to be an FPS, and morrowind don't play like any of the FPS's I've ever played...

No, you are trying to rationalize your own peculiar requirement; I am not aware of anyone else who wants this, certainly not a minority significant enough to warrant the extra investment of resources that might better be utilized doing something

I know it's disgraceful to think anyone but me can have a point of view I am hearten that you understand this basic principle of existence... <_<