Gromnir

okie dokie. have been kinda avoiding this thread since the game release, nevertheless we did manage to play the game for 'bout 45 minutes and we got some feedback from a hardcore crpg fan o' ours who purchased the signature edition and got day 1. impressions: 1) a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a will not = win... 'least not on hard or nightmare. we felt challenged by the combat, even if we thought the camera were pure suck. Gromnir has been comparing da2 to me, but is probable more fair to compare to je. the super-leaping combat moves is reminding us o' je more than other bio games. nevertheless, there is a significant tactical component to da2 combats. 2) nightmare = stoopid. is not challenging so much as ridiculous. there is seeming unavoidable stun effects and enemies that can instakill virtual everything save for sword and board tanks... and 2h warriors under the effect o' stonesomethingorother. 3) is still some terrible dialogues, but is not as bad as it were seeming in the demo. 'course we only got 45-minutes, so is not as if we got much o' a feel for story. our friend stopped at the end o' act 1 (with no intent o' continuing) and he were strangely ambivalent 'bout the story elements. he hated the emo elf warrior jnpc, but he thought varric were fun. as for the plot itself, end o' chapter 1 didn't seems to convince our acquaintance that da2 were progressing well or bad. 4) some o' the abilities don't seem to have much value save that they is a necessary requirement for some other ability. no improvement from da:o in that regard. 5) during the short time we played, we experienced a couple bugs related to access o' menus. 6) have seen compared to bg2, but is actual more similar to bg1... once you reach bg city. back 'n forth doing relative simple quests with loads o' combat. is no bg2 unseeing eye or thieves guild questage in kirkwall, but there is loads o' little quests occurring in identical seeming buildings and locations. 7) ... POSSIBLE SPOILER x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x our friend quit at the end o' chapter 1... and he were fuming mad 'bout it too. he were moderate enjoying the game and were irritated that he felt the need to abandon da2. we asked what were the cause o' his consternation, so he showed us. the Boss battle at then end o' chapter 1 were... odd. is tough for Gromnir to describe as we not have much game experience beyond crpgs and strategy games, but the boss battle reminded us o' console fighting games we played in the early 90's... and arcade games played in the 80's. to win the battle it seemed as if you not only needed the right party composition, but more than tactical consideration, you had to be very good at timing the movement o' your party so that you coulds escape the boss Mega Attacks that were telegraphed. were big columns in the boss battle room that served no purpose save to give the player something to use as cover. our friend noted that he played the battle on hard more than a dozen times before he beat the boss... figured out the correct patterns and positions to be utilizing. felt cheated. he quit. end spoiler X X X X dunno. the game were buggy and performance lagged in specific locations in spite o' more than recommended system requirements. still, other than the boss battle, the game looked enjoyable enough, if not particularly deep or compelling. side note... during the short time we played, anders hit on the male protagonist and we got 15 rivalry points for choosing the mild rebuff option for his advances. apparently anders is written by a 13 year-old girl. HA! Good Fun!

if that is the case, then why did the biowarians allow such an approach in the demo? if vol is being truthful, then the demo demands is perplexing to say the least. is perhaps easier to assume that vol is full o' crap, 'cause is so often the case that vol is talking nonsense. even so, we were surprised by the lack o' challenge o' the demo... particularly the console demo. made us wonder if the demo were a genuine representation o' da2 gameplay. 'course we still cannot understand why the biowarians would tune the demo to be less challenging than the actual game combat. so until we gets feedback from a source a bit more reliable than vol... HA! Good Fun!

oddly enough, Gromnir felt different 'bout fo:nv. too much o' the "classic" crpg questage for our taste. go kill ants. go get package from ____. go do something simple and stoopid and unnecessary so that we can boost gameplay hours. there were some fantastic stuff in fo:nv, but there were also an enormous 'mount o' seemingly shallow filler quests that added very little positive to the game... and as there were respawning monsters 'round every corner it ain't as if quests with no value save to grant experience were necessary. again, there were indeed many interesting and well-designed fo:nv quests... but there were more than a few mindless quests... too many. HA! Good Fun!

Bull. I know it's Volourn but... still. vol did compare da2 to bg. now, we don't know if vol were trying to be misleading by the mentions o' bg as 'posed to bg2 or the bg series, but it is true that bg (the first game o' the series) were easily conquerable with a very limited tactical portfolio at one's disposal. if vol is trying to be clever, we don't see the point in doing so, but if the is bg v. Game X, then the X not needs to be particular demanding, does it? 'course, is our understanding that the da2 default and hard setting o' difficulty do not allow friendly fire damage... which, based on our limited experience with the demo would suggest that a, a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a, is a viable da2 approach to combat; no tactics needed. am wondering if demo were tuned to super-easy, or if is a legit representation o' da2 combat. HA! Good Fun!

You are probably right the criticisms o' da2 has been different. oh, sure, is mostly the same folks who is doing the loudest complaining, but is different complaints. before da:o were released we knew less than one would expect from a game so long in development. the complaints from the lunatic fringe were vague and often stoopid. complain 'bout over-hype. complain 'bout tolkienesque. even complains 'bout title. heck, those complaints that ended up being legit were, at the time the complaints were voiced, based on little more than nerd-rage and too much caffeine. da2 is different. we know the da rules. we has played the demo. we gots developer quotes informing us 'bout what has changed from da:o and what will remain. da:o complaints were general and based mostly on a rejection o' bioware. the hardcore fans that populate boards such as this complained 'bout da:o, but at the same time they secretly hoped that da:o would be the kinda old skool throwback that the developer were promising. while the freaky board regulars complained o' da:o shortcomings, both before and after purchase, they at least bought da:o. da2 is different. the hardcore nutjobs (such as Gromnir) has now been informed that the stuff we complained 'bout most regarding da:o (e.g. lack o' tactical sophistication, lack o' a identifiable villain, lack o' balance, lack o' etc.) is the stuff that we is getting even less of in da2. da2 is different. will Gromnir eventually purchase? probably, but we ain't gonna be a day 1 purchaser or even a month 1 or 2 purchaser. we waited more than 1 month to buy da:o and we gots even less hope regarding da2. we will likely wait til after the first quarter elapses, if only to be sending a message to bio. clearly they didn't listen to the hardcore gamer complaints posted on various boards, so perhaps they listen to our complaints via how we spend our gaming dollar... and if you not think that a three month delay in purchase is a big deal to publishers and developers, then you ain't been paying attention. am doubting that we is the only nutter that has decided to hold off on a da2 purchase... 'cause this time we know more than we hope. HA! Good Fun!

AFAIK EA puts an embargo on all their titles, major or not. I have no doubt DAII will have, at the very least, solid reviews. Most previews/impressions of the demo, for example, were rather gushing in tone. Not all actually: The Decline of the Classic RPG ... is not much o' a rebuttal to, "Most previews/impressions of the demo, for example, were rather gushing in tone." never heard o' the site you linked, but no doubt the single article you reveal were deemed newsworthy via the codex. doesn't undercut "most." *snort* am personally gonna hold off on the da2 purchase. for games we is anticipating with eagerness, is our habit to be purchasing only after the first post-release patch has been made available. we get cheaper and more stable products. however, am not particular eager regarding da2. we never did buy bioware's HotU 'cause we were bored with nwn, and epic-level d&d, and drow. am less enthusiastic 'bout da2. is a few bio products we has skipped, and for the moment, da2 is going to get a pass. am not certain what the critical consensus for da2 will be, but to post one linky is hardly a convincing retort to worstuser. is typical codexian guerrilla tactics. HA! Good Fun!

can't read the first column on page 91, but the review starts off with such misleading content that we would be hesitant to read further anyways. you does indeed start off with badass powhaz in da2, but that lasts for all of 'bout 5 minutes before your magical interlude ends and you is returned to traditional level 1 crpg status with your single quasi-useful ability. *snort* maybe the reviewer only played the first five minutes o' the demo. heck, we only read the first half page o' his review, so we can't complain too much. HA! Good Fun!

as far as we can tell, bio made two obvious mistakes regarding dark. 1) they confused dark with horror. 2) "dark, but not too dark" when Gromnir pressed gaider regarding da:o darkness, we were told that bio would make da:o "dark, but not too dark." in the thread that sent us reeling from the bio boards, there were some number o' folks who admitted that they didn't like darkness, moral ambiguity, and hard choices in their crpgs. we were actual genuine surprised at the number o' peoples who lobbied for easy, clear, and bright. what is the freaking point o' choices if those choices is obvious and easy? lady shayna (sp?) were at the forefront o' the candyland proponents, but she were hardly alone. so, to appease the vocal minority, gaider says, "dark, but not too dark." how can you craft dark if you is being careful so as not to discourage the candylanders? the possibility o' dark in bio games died that day, and only Gromnir and a few other folks noticed. for more than a few years Gromnir has been talking 'bout how bio attempts to make games for the mythical Average Gamer, but the truth is that bio is even more greedy than our descriptor implies. is not that bio is trying to appeal to the largest possible number o' games-- bio is genuine trying to make games that appeals to everybody. to us, such an approach is inherent flawed and necessarily leads to mediocrity. bio don't share our fears. also, bio gots horror confused with dark. were branka and her experiments more dark than irenicus and his treatment o' his people in bg2? maybe. possibly. but if there were a difference in the dark level, that difference were slight. bio added "dark" to da:o content by making broodmothers monstrous... giving 'em tentacles, a diseased pallor, and additional breasts. is horror, not dark. *shrug* bio would benefit greatly if they woulds run some o' these ideas past Gromnir in the early stages o' development... save 'em much wasted effort. HA! Good Fun!

but will it be epic suckage? HA! Good Fun!

*sigh* ok, we didn't think this were necessary, but following the release o' bg2, EVERY game bio has released has been described as "epic" by bio and publishers and game magazines. and some groups o' fans has complained 'bout the use o' "epic" each and every time it has shown up on websites or in print. tedium. epic refers to a specific kinda long, narrative poem. it may also refer to any work, fiction or otherwise, that elicits comparison to epic poems. additionally, epic may refer to size... really big = epic. *shrug* finally, epic may refer to scope... heroic. grandeur o' scope. heroic characters, acting heroically on a heroic scale. now, say what you will 'bout the quality, length or included poetry o' bio games, but there ain't no viable argument that biowarian games is other than steeped and stinkin' with heroism-- heroic characters, with heroic qualities, acting heroic as they saves the nation/world/galaxy. is it silly how frequent the biowarians and publishers utilize epic? yeah, but is clear accurate. be warned, for beyond this place, there be heroes. HA! Good Fun!

It's not only BioWare. The word 'epic' is overused in the game industry as a whole. By companies and media. Everything is epic nowadays. "epic" is soooooo early 2000's. didn't we move on to "awesome"? course, Gromnir is hardly conversant in contemporary kewl--saw a group o' kids wearing rosaries the other day, and we had to have it explained to us that catholic prayer beads is now a popular fashion accessory. regardless, am not sure that any rational person takes puffery serious. is just meaningless salesman spiel. HA! Good Fun!

am not certain if we agree or disagree. is nothing wrong with understanding and accommodating player trends. what is wrong with attempting to makes a game that people will actually play and enjoy? the problem we see is the manner in which bio interprets their data. 1) data mine reveals that many players quit after 1 hour . 2) the biowarians sees data and comes to conclusion that players is daunted by the crpg learning curve. 3) biowarians solve perceived problem by making a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a a successful combat tactic. is nothing wrong in 1... is 2 and 3 that is wacky. getting accurate feedback is useful and legit, but the feedback bio gets is mindless data that they has chosen to interpret a certain way... and the manner in which they choose to fix perceived problems is direct, but crude. is not the data mine. is the biowarians. HA! Good Fun! ps am gonna once again note that bio is partial correct in their guess that peoples is daunted by the crpg learning curve, but the a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a fix is not direct linked to data mine. data mine does not prevent original and absorbing, but Bioware interpretation of data mine may kill hope o' original.

Gromnir, old pal, I'm kind of surprised to see this from you. At your worst (best?) you resemble a chapter of Ulysses. *chuckle* fair enough. nevertheless, we do appreciate simple and elegant pleasures. as noted already, complexity got no inherent value. there is goals that one may not be able to achieve w/o complexity. even so, it is the goal that is admirable and not the ineffable solution. which is the superior character: a multi-dimensional characters with depth and breadth developed through dense literary allusion and rhetorical device such that only folks with a masters degree in literature will comprehend more than a fraction, or a similar multi-dimensional character with with Equal depth and breadth developed so that the bottom feeders frequenting game development boards may enjoy? is not the complexity that makes superior, but is hardest for the moderate educated to recognize that fact. HA! Good Fun!

no. complexity has no inherent value. there is, sadly, a level o' education and experience that blinds an individual to the appreciation o' simplicity. as we has grown older and more experienced, we has gained greater appreciation for the elegance that accompanies enlightened simplicity. chess and go, as examples, is not terribly complex games. mastery o' such simple games can takes a lifetime o' dedication. produce endless wonder and challenge. is perhaps ironic that the genuine educated man and the child may takes joy from simplicity that eludes the apprentice or journeyman scholar. *shrug* is a matter o' opinion and taste, but am gonna suggest that derision o' simplicity is the result o' hubris born o' ignorance... lack o' experience and education. HA! Good Fun!

2) the defined, voiced PC and the "general tone"-based dialogue choices allow the player to just react rather than read and reflect on choices am hopeful that the demo is misleading. the early reviews almost unanimous speak o' stellar writing, but the demo evidenced dreck. ... am somewhat suspecting that biowarian reputation for writing is camouflaging and that the reviewers is just assuming that 'cause this is a biowarian game the writing must be compelling, 'cause what we saw were as campy-bad and trite as anything we has ever seen from bio. not even have to read bio dialogue choices no more as we choose either halo & wings, angry hammer, or comic response. MEE (mass effect effect) rears its ugly head... but actual goes a step further than commander shep dialogue options in making over-the-top and obvious. *shudder* even so, the demo writing is the one aspect we is willing to give the biowarians a free pass. the writing sample from the da2 demo is far too small to make a legit judgment, and so we hold out hope. HA! Good Fun!

eh? why? oh, 'cause o' the old saw 'bout ignorance o' the law is no defense, right? HA! sorry, but we didn't vote for the biowarians, and the box check a'int analogous to a law... and nobody would try to makes the analogy save all but the most deluded and ignorant o' fanbois. yutz. in any event, am thinking that the problem with bio and their datamining is that the biowarians can be just as stoopid as vol. for instance, one can look at the fact that people stopped after a single hour and justifiably come to a different conclusion 'bout why players quit. example of a possible alternative explanation: folks stopped after an hour 'cause the rinse-and-repeat endless cycle o' combats became soul-numbing boring...fast. see. however, we does think that the biowarians is right that the learning curve for traditional crpgs can be daunting, but how they end up with da2 as a result is baffling. the skills trees still looks complex to a crpg neophyte, no? so, we call bs. is not that bio has made the crpg introduction less complex... they has made meaningless. mashing a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a is apparent enough to successfully overcome combats. biowarian claimed solution does not match their espoused goal. 'stead o' genuine simplifying da complex rules, bio has gone ahead and made the rules pointless. and with the expected MEE (mass effect effect) player development choices will become increasingly meaningless as one progresses in the game. am betting that by the end o' the game, our dw rogue is gonna look near identical to bob's or phil's, or peete's dw rogue... and even if our stats and abilities is slight different, it won't matter 'cause the gameplay will be identical. if making the learning curve less daunting is the goal, then we cringe at biowarian solution. datamining don't mean squat if the biowarians misinterpret the data, or if their solutions to perceived problems is bassackwards. HA! Good Fun!

actually, "to be fair," is a small box to be checked (not a shiny button) on the online tab o' the options menu if you wish to share data... and the box is checked as a default. naughty-naughty. lord knows we never knew the box were there until it were pointed out to us some number o' months after playing. am guessing that Gromnir were not the only person who failed to read all the options menu boxes. we looks for specific video, audio, and gameplay options rather than double-checking all such. HA! Good Fun!

I'd think that the people with a "different" taste would make double sure that their data gets to Bioware. Certainly, if you keep your data away from Bioware, what right do you have to complain about them no longer designing the kind of game you'd like to play? am agreeing with nep... but at the same time we can very much understand a different perspective. datamining, particularly w/o informing us that we is gonna have our data mined, feels more than a little intrusive. if bio were to ask us if they coulds monitor our da:o or da2 gameplay so as to get a better notion o' actual player behavior, am betting we would volunteer. find out after the fact that bio had been digging through our digital dirty laundry is... different. 'course, knowing you is being observed changes behavior and taints results. regardless, Gromnir can see reasons for being reluctant to share with bio, particularly in light o' the fact that they didn't do us the courtesy o' asking for permissions. is... rude. HA! Good Fun!

I'd say that a story-driven game benefits from clear obstacles to overcome and a strong personification of those obstacles. This doesn't have to be in the form of a villain. *sigh* as da2 is a crpg, the protagonist need necessarily be ill-defined. 'cause the protagonist gotta be functionally playable for potentially millions o' different people, the writers cannot develop the main character with the kinda detail one would expect from a novel's protagonist... or even the protagonist from a short story, movie, comic book or whatever. additionally, a crpg story is built 'round some sorta gameplay, which is 'posed to be visceral and engaging, but chopping up darkspawn into little darkspawn chunks is not gonna be creating particularly compelling story elements, is it? yeah, gameplay does, and should add to story development, but is always gonna be tough to create the necessary emotion outta squad-based tactical combat encounters. so, since the traditional main character is gonna be relative vague, from whence does the writer build his story? should be obvious that you gotta create emotional investment and if our vague hero is overcoming an ill-defined conflict, you has little chance to make the necessary emotional link for a compelling story to develop. am genuine surprised that the biowarians made same mistake in yet another game. HA! Good Fun!

Really? Guess I never spec'd Leliana right. I always found Zev as a duelist more useful then Leliana as an archer. Will have to roll an Archer next time I play DA:O. Archers in DA:O are rather badly designed. Most of their talent are completely useless, but Scattershot is rather overpowered. In Awakening, the same trend continues, expect the talent Accuracy now gets archers God Mode. Attack and DPS 1.5 to 2 times that of a melee DPS Warrior, with >75% crit chance? Right-o. There's a good article on how to build effective archers using their passive abilities on the DA wiki: http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Archery:_A...icient_Approach archery is poorly designed and balanced in da:o. at low and mid levels, a dedicated archer is a liability to your party offering little in the way o' offensive or defensive support. at high levels a da archer is boss-killer that doles out ridiculous 'mounts o' damage. what? was hoping that bio would take the opportunity to fix the archery skills in da2. based on what we has seen from the demo, the biowarians fixed archery so that it is no longer overpowered only at high levels... archery is now wacky powered at ALL levels. congrats to bio. HA! Good Fun!

two quick observations... 1) we didn't see any examples o' writing duplicity in the da2 demo. 2) the developers has made such claims in the past, and been wrong. whether they were intentional fibbing or not is up to you to decide. *shrug* bio has simplified and streamlined many aspects o' their games. self-identified hardcore fans has been less than welcoming o' such changes as they see such simplification as dumbing-down a medium that ain't all that complex in the first place. is bioware writers so clumsy that they need the dialogue wheel to make intent apparent? is the Average Gamer so unlettered as to require dialogue wheel guidance to navigate successfully through dialogues? however, we will note where bioware writing becomes less engaging, the dialogue wheel makes easier for us to skip through sections o' the game w/o actually missing anything. two word emote, then skip through the vo. oddly, maria contrasted with paragon v. renegade, but the demo so far were more polarized than any previous game we has seen so far. no need to even read the dialog choices as they is all coded with halo, anvil or comedy tags. yippie. bio: simplifying and streamlining crpgs since 2003. HA! Good Fun!

Definitely. OTOH I don't think there was a command queue in BG1-2 either, but I could be misremembering. It's been a couple of years... Also, the PS3 version of the DA2 demo downloaded while I was typing this message. Love Sony servers, speediest 1,7 gigs of my life. ;D why bring up bg? we specific compared the console controls o' the da2 demo to kotor, so it weren't Gromnir that tried to bring bg into the discussion. the reasons we initially gave for comparing kotor and da2 were that combat felt similar 'cause camera were so tight and 'cause the player weren't really necessary to succeed in combat. mindless button mashing in the da2 demo did not slow down Gromnir one bit. in our ps we observed that with the combat queue, kotor actually had Console Controls that were more intuitive than functional than da2. bg? not really relevant. however, since you did raise the decade old spectre o' bg, we will confess that we is happy to see that bio did not regress to old infinity engine options for their warrior class. once combat started in the ie games, tactical considerations for fighter-type combatants was limited to proper positioning. attack. attack. attack. attack. attack. maybe switch between range and melee were the big tactical consideration? *shrug* peoples scoff at d&d 4e (and Gromnir is one such person) but the addition o' powhaz that is usable during every combat encounter is a welcome change from the old ie games. HA! Good Fun!

Bioware, if they so choose, can hide responses in circles. You might have 3 different symbols, but only one answer. If texts were in lines, Bioware could still do that but players would most certainly notice the lack of optionsd. Personally I think it's cost cutting move and the fact that modern players don't finish the game at all or finish it only once, so why should Bioware care if all 3 symbols have same answer (maybe just slight variation in VO). Just becaue the lines use the same VO doesn't mean that they'll have the same in-game results. no, it not mean that there will always be same in-game results... but that is frequent the case. regardless, is lazy and cheap, and it is a shortcut that tends to lead to more uninspired lines o' dialogue from the protagonist. the writer has already identified to the player what is the protagonist's intent, so convey meaning becomes less complex but also more crude. takes the art out o' the writing for sake o' simplicity. is a trend in bio games to simplify. simple ain't bad, but to craft simple requires much skill if one is to avoid dumbing-down. da2 can still be a good game, but it does appear to be what many o' us feared it would be: a moderate rushed frankenstein monster amalgam o' da:o and me. maybe the unholy melding o' the two franchises actually works and we all cheer biowarian vision, but... HA! Good Fun! ps we did a disservice to kotor when we compared da2 demo combat to kotor. kotor had the combat queue that were far more intuitive and functional than is the console controls for da2.

am traveling, so we gotta make quick... 1) initial impression were that me2 looked better. we got no particular reason, just feelings. disappointed. 2) the cut-scene full vo dialogues, complete with dialogue wheel , were not a high point. is too little story being developed in the combat heavy demo we played to give a fair assessment o' story and dialogue writing, but the stuff we saw were almost campy... and am not thinking that were intended. 3) for a combat focused demo, we were enjoying the pc combat... good sign. we played all three classes, but not all approaches--played as a dw rogue, but not as an archer. gut reaction were that rogues is very effective combatants. sword and board makes for great tanks, but 2h were kinda underwhelming as we didn't see some marked damage increase to balance out the increased vulnerability. and mages... well, once the difficulty is turned up allowing for friendly fire, we suspect that mages is gonna be far less effective, particular 'cause o' the craptacular camera. 4) the camera sucks. absence o' tactical view makes this game feels more like a kotor wannabe than a da:o sequel. heck, we played xbox and pc version o' the demo and as we were not familiar with xbox controls (which seemed kinda awkward) all we did with the rogue were a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,x,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,b,a,a,a,a,a,a,a... had no idea what we were targeting half the time, but it didn't seems to matter. were better on the pc, but camera still made us feels like we were playing kotor rather than da. 5) played on a marginal pc, and performance were only noticeable bad during dialogues. go figure. oh, and while balance is clear not as important in a sp game as is multi, it sure as hell ain't something to be dismissed. make all classes fun, not balanced. fine. but who wants to be playing the obvious gimped class? same goes for spells and weapons. includes dozens o' spells and abilities, but makes some clear more efficacious than others? results become obvious, and the ability to choose powers and abilities becomes a bit o' a joke. the developer goal should be to make equal fun, but not necessarily equal powered. 'course it should also be obvious that obvious overpowered or underpowered features or classes is making game less fun rather than more enjoyable. duh. more thoughts later, but we gotta catch a flight. HA! Good Fun!