Gromnir

I doubt that they coded any immunities, but it's possible that some opponents have action speeds and concentration stats high enough to make it near-impossible for even an interrupt-optimized character to land interrupts with any consistency. it were kinda annoying in the beta to see how interrupts worked in practice. the 430 beta build were the most powerful incarnation o' interrupt we saw, with interrupts occurring at ~50% when attacker and defender had equal perception and resolve. in truth, the numbers were a bit better than 50% as attribute scores increased, so that at 20 perception v. 20 resolve, the chance were closer to +60%. current math has interrupt occurring, as noted above, at 25% whenever resolve = perception. the thing is, in actual practice, the only situation in which foes were getting effective stun-locked by interrupts were the extreme slow attacks such as ogres and gun wielders. to exploit interrupt as much as possible, we had the beta rogue, a character with a 20 perception dual wielding fast weapons such as stilettos or alternatively using the hunting bow in an attempt to maximize interrupt rates. (note: beta interrupt were a bit different and the faster weapons did actual have a reduced chance o' interrupt rather than the current scheme wherein interrupt duration is affected by size, even so, quicker were better.) the thing is, we would have our rogue 1 v 1 enemy healers and casters and we would watch our near guaranteed interrupts successful delay casting... to negligible actual effect. even when able to achieve an +80% interrupt rate with actual functioning interrupting blows and the 430 beta math for interrupt, we were nevertheless unable to do more than slight delay the machine-gun spam healing o' priests o' a rather sinister deity. thee bb rogue had enviable accuracy, so it weren't as if paltry accuracy were what were preventing us from interrupting. the point is that we were interrupting, and it didn't make enough o' a difference. enemy healers, for whatever reason, don't run outta spells. we could literal have a doorway battle last 10 minutes or more 'cause an enemy healer were able to keep his compatriots upright while we ineffectually tested interrupt by having the bb rogue solo the heals. a 10 minute battle... in hard mode? against spells/actions with fast cast times, interrupt loses. interrupt is situational useful, but even when the math were most favorable, it were not near as effective as we would have believed. is still a useful feature, and when interrupting blows is fixed it will be better, but interrupts don't work to slow down many casters save by resorting to mob attacks, which likely result in caster death regardless o' interrupt. HA! Good Fun!

Gromnir is a half-orc character in BG2-Throne of Bhaal who sometimes talks about himself in third person or plural. That "hah, good fun" stuff is also a quote by him. It was fine in the game. On a forum, however, I find it annoying and harder to read, but that's freedom of speech for you. *sigh* you got it backwards. Gromnir were a forum poster who bioware included in tob... included precisely 'cause o' the interactions the biowarinas had with the forum poster. also, freedom o' speech is a largely irrelevant concept on a private owned message board. nevertheless, am glad you find it to be annoying though as that is part o' the point. off-topic alert, but as a point o' personal privilege, we responded. "You are still using the reasoning like "Paladins are great support" and "Paladins are great tanks" without explaining why that is. Stating "Paladins are great" and not explaining why they're so great, when other people are discussing the mechanics and explaining as to why they're lackluster, is really dull and annoying" you point to a post where we responded to a person who is using appeal to masses. we fight fire with a flamethrower. duh. the technical advantages o' paladin has been explained to death, but you and the genesis poster refuse to accept, so, am responding to posts as they come. from the guy who said naught but that paladins suck we find little need to continue to repeat already noted paladin qualities. particular funny coming from you given how we mentioned the paladin's aura stacking with some vital priest spells, which you disbelieved. perhaps you don't know near as much as you believe. there is literal dozens o' paladin threads going back to the beta dissecting their abilities. you need only do a simple search to get more details... if you wish to do so. HA! Good Fun!

It seems to me world is moving in one direction and you are moving in another, mate. There are hardly any people on this whole forum except may be only a very few who may agree with what you are saying, at least I have yet to come across any of them........And if there are indeed some who think like you, as you keep claiming, then where are these people?.........I have been reading the whole forum on this and even in this topic......most people are saying the opposite of what you are claiming, and the ones who are saying the positive things about the current state of Paladins are the ones who played the game on lower difficulties that aren't hard enough to stretch the classes to the point where all wrinkles can be exposed and a meaningful comparison can be drawn. And I only wanted to know about the effectiveness of Paladin class within the context of PotD, that was the whole point of starting this thread as I started a new PotD campaign with a Paladin but I didn't want my main character to be the least effective or even a second class member of my party, so I inquired about the usefulness of Paladins and the feedback I have received for the most part is that, PotD is do-able with Paladins, but more or less people consider Paladins to be the underdog class of this game. And the fact that you compare having a Paladin with having a SECOND fighter or second of any other class , is a proof that Paladins are indeed a notch below than other classes that fit within the same role. Because even as off-tank or hybrid front line support class, Paladin is appearing to be weaker than other classes of the ilk. For example, if built properly Priest or Chanter can also hold their own in melee (I am playing a melee priest now, she is doing very well ......stopping the enemies who manage to get past my fighter) while providing much better support than Paladin. So i don't know what to say but in the light of my experience and what most of others are saying, my opinion is starting form against having a paladin in my party.... EDIT: And BTW forgive my ignorance but who is 'WE'?.....You keep saying *'WE' think* or *'WE' believe*, is that like a royal WE or what? you aren't even paying attention to this thread if you believe Gromnir is the only personage who sees worth in the paladin as a support class. therefore, most o' your post is based on a ridiculous premise that is ultimately meaningless anyway. follow the herd mentality has always been a suspect course o' action. nevertheless, since you brought up your imaginary 95% figure, we observed that many beta folks , folks with far more experience in the game than the average current poster, were near split on the paladin v. fighter as the best tank... though more than a few suggested that chanters were actual the best in that role. https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/71065-480-tank-advice-for-a-main-pc-with-full-party-of-story-companions/?p=1583973 https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/71286-paladins-support-only/?p=1587993 "Yeah, paladins have pretty garbage offense. They make for the best pure tanks, though." is a common enough quote from a beta backer who has been playing the game for over 9 months. is more than a few such threads and quotes. priests as tank, off or otherwise? HA! we love our combat priests, but you are showing a fundamental lack o' understanding o' the game mechanics if you are genuine in suggesting that priests better fulfill an off-tank role in poe. alternatively, such stuff kinda undercuts whatever claims you could possibly make concerning your rationality and objectivity regarding paladins if you place priests ahead o' the knightly order class insofar as tankyness. am not sure what axe you got to grind regarding paladins. did pallagenia spit in your caeser salad? being silly. HA! Good Fun!

Yes I agree Paladin take only one party slot but he is not a full time tank like a fighter and YOU ARE going to get a Fighter anyway (95% of the player base thinks Fighter is indispensable when it comes to tanking)...... complete untrue. all through the beta we had many folks arguing that paladins make for better tanks than fighters. is not our personal pov, but close to 50% o' the folks who have have been playing poe for many months already were rather adamant that the paladin were a superior choice for tanking. *shrug* we think the fighter makes a better tank, but is hardly that we were amongst a 95% group... not even freaking close. for a party dynamic where you want an off-tank, or two tanks, we personal wouldn't want 2 fighters. a paladin and a sword & board monk both work very well for Gromnir filling tank roles in poe, and the paladin has additional support abilities that enhance our ubiquitous priestly support. our favorite tank is actual the sword & board monk and chances are that class and build is what we recommend for folks who keep trying to make the poe paladin into a tank. poe "monks" (they ain't monastic, so we have a hard time calling 'em monks) can suck up damage and dish out pain with extreme prejudice. kung fu monks always strike us as kinda a silly addition on a battlefield with heavily armed and armoured combatants, but a combat friar conceptually matches up very well with the poe sword & board monk. we got a very nice spear & shield wielding monk that is not only ridiculous durable, but it has archers killing themselves and it is providing serious party damage as well. am knowing folks like hatchet for most tanks, but the sword & board monk tank is as much about dealing hurt as absorbing, so we like the increased accuracy benefits. think o' the poe "monk" more in western rather than eastern terms and you got what so many is trying to twist the poe paladin into being-- a very capable tank that also does serious damage. get added benefit that you need not worry about all those support qualities with a monk tank as the monk is actual the front-line class you desire the poe paladin to be. HA! Good Fun!

we would like see improvements made to the ranger. am getting that the animal companion is what sets the ranger apart from a rogue, but the animal companion continues to annoy us. truthfully, we believe that giving the ranger the benefits o' the animal companion (albeit diluted a bit) w/o the actual animal companion baggage would be a vast improvement. paladin is kinda boring. unlike many folks, we do not see paladins as a weak support class. paladin auras can stack with a few o' the priestly buff spells making a priest-paladin combo greater than sum o' the parts. that being said, we do find the paladin gameplay to be a bit boring as there aren't many paladin abilities outside the per-kill stuff that requires much player input. am a bit perturbed by obsidian's willingness to cave to the mob and make the paladin better tanks or strikers when we believe the goal should be to make the paladin a better support character. am not a huge fan o' chanters ourself, but we do not deny that they have a unique and intriguing gameplay-- they is an excellent support class. the thing is, following 1.03, there are no chanter-specific talents that we deem worth taking. that isn't a fatal flaw in and of itself as the general talents is more than adequate for purposes o' customizing a chanter, but even so, we would like at least a few additional chanter talents. still hate druid wild shape. still think cipher focus building mechanic (and a few low-level powhaz) make them relative over-powered, especially in higher difficulty modes with functional less frequent resting opportunities. etc. am thinking Gromnir is a long way off from wanting/needing new classes. is more than enough variation o' classes with 11, but we would like to see continued efforts to improve those existing poe classes w/o fundamental altering the admirable design philosophies we see for such classes. HA! Good Fun!

Interesting, thank you for that information. I also thought you couldn't use Holy Radiance out of combat anymore since the 1.03 patchnotes, but someone brought it up earlier and I thought I was therefor mistaken. Oh well, thanks again for rectifying this. we noted earlier about stacking of paladin aura. is good to see you have finally come around... if belatedly so. That might have been their goal, but it doesn't make it a good one. The paladin's chassis just isn't set up to be good at support. You have to burn to many talents to get the support abilities set up properly and the other support classes still do it better. The chanter even fills the passive aura support niche already. Paladins need to find their own niche or a niche that's worth doubling up on.other support classes do it differently, not better. depends on playstyle. we already observed how chanters have cycling chants which mean that their buffs and debuffs fade in and out, frequently at inopportune times. the chanter invocations are also nice, but they cannot be used at will as most paladin abilities can. the advantages o' the paladin is exact why we dump the chanter joinable at our first opportunity 'pon reaching defiance bay. particular for our play style, the predictability o' the paladin and its synergy o' aura with various priest spells makes it a no-brainer to choose paladin (aside: we will once again note that 2 chanters is a fabulous support configuration as you can layer the chants so that your "essential" chants is always active.) most priest spells have relative short ranges, which for a squishy character is a serious disadvantage. the paladin, on the other hand, has excellent defenses-- am not having worries when utilizing the paladin adjacent to tanks and other front-liners. also, as has been noted ad nauseum and echoed by longknife, the paladin does not require the same degree o' micromanagement as numerous other classes. for players, many players, who has complained o' frenetic and overwhelming combat, a paladin is a welcome party addition. find a niche? it already has one. that being said, it is a low-maintenance niche (boring) that will not appeal to the kinda folks that typical post in these threads. you folks is not the casual poe player, yes? even so, Gromnir would also be in favor o' adding a few more options for active abilities that we would actual wish to use. the paladin, particular for boss battles, has wonderful debuffs and buffs, but far too often we do very little with our paladin save wait for an opponent to get to death's door so that we can activate flames o' devotion... which hopeful in turn triggers inspiring triumph or some other per-kill effect. is an underappreciated support class, but it is boring... boring for Gromnir. HA! Good Fun! If you don't want chants fading in and out, you can just set your chant to be made of only one phrase, then it will be a constant modal buff, like a paladin's, but with bigger range and more varied effects. less varied effects. it would only be 1 chant active at all times, as 'posed to the paladin which gots auras and more situational abilities. the auras may also be modified through abilities to be far more varied than any single chant. also, can just as easily choose multiple auras for the paladin and still have abilities on top o' that. more varied for paladin, particularly if you is using a single chant as you suggest. the invocations for the chanter is fantastic and truly sets them apart, we love the idea o' the chanter. we like a 2-chanter party... in theory. however, for the most part, we don't like chanters for a large % o' the game as we are having the poe spin on a d&d bard wedded to a rather unforgiving clock. in ordinary battles, we typical finish before we get a chance to use one minor invocation much less multiple such castings. doesn't mean the chanter is bad either. we get that a chanter can be excellent and we can see why some folks like them. they don't work particularly well for us. would rather have a paladin working in conjunction with a priest... or even a paladin and two priests. chanter is different, not worse. just as the paladin is different. HA! Good Fun!

Interesting, thank you for that information. I also thought you couldn't use Holy Radiance out of combat anymore since the 1.03 patchnotes, but someone brought it up earlier and I thought I was therefor mistaken. Oh well, thanks again for rectifying this. we noted earlier about stacking of paladin aura. is good to see you have finally come around... if belatedly so. That might have been their goal, but it doesn't make it a good one. The paladin's chassis just isn't set up to be good at support. You have to burn to many talents to get the support abilities set up properly and the other support classes still do it better. The chanter even fills the passive aura support niche already. Paladins need to find their own niche or a niche that's worth doubling up on. other support classes do it differently, not better. depends on playstyle. we already observed how chanters have cycling chants which mean that their buffs and debuffs fade in and out, frequently at inopportune times. the chanter invocations are also nice, but they cannot be used at will as most paladin abilities can. the advantages o' the paladin is exact why we dump the chanter joinable at our first opportunity 'pon reaching defiance bay. particular for our play style, the predictability o' the paladin and its synergy o' aura with various priest spells makes it a no-brainer to choose paladin (aside: we will once again note that 2 chanters is a fabulous support configuration as you can layer the chants so that your "essential" chants is always active.) most priest spells have relative short ranges, which for a squishy character is a serious disadvantage. the paladin, on the other hand, has excellent defenses-- am not having worries when utilizing the paladin adjacent to tanks and other front-liners. also, as has been noted ad nauseum and echoed by longknife, the paladin does not require the same degree o' micromanagement as numerous other classes. for players, many players, who has complained o' frenetic and overwhelming combat, a paladin is a welcome party addition. find a niche? it already has one. that being said, it is a low-maintenance niche (boring) that will not appeal to the kinda folks that typical post in these threads. you folks is not the casual poe player, yes? even so, Gromnir would also be in favor o' adding a few more options for active abilities that we would actual wish to use. the paladin, particular for boss battles, has wonderful debuffs and buffs, but far too often we do very little with our paladin save wait for an opponent to get to death's door so that we can activate flames o' devotion... which hopeful in turn triggers inspiring triumph or some other per-kill effect. is an underappreciated support class, but it is boring... boring for Gromnir. HA! Good Fun!

the wiki is not much o' a source. again, for the third time... http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63968-update-56-paladins-and-wild-orlans/?hl=paladin "We also wanted their mechanics to be distinctive from the other classes while reinforcing their role in the world. Area designer Bobby Null has always liked the marshal class from D&D 3.5, which is conceptually similar to the warlord in 4E: combat leaders who are at their best when they are augmenting their teammates. This is the approach that I took when developing Project Eternity's paladins. They have persistent modal auras, strong single-target healing and buff abilities (contrasting the broad AoE effects of clerics), and can passively grant bonuses to teammates in close proximity." you can also look for updates which identify which classes is tanky and front-liners, and the paladin ain't 'mongst those. http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66380-update-81-the-front-line-fighters-and-barbarians/?hl=front-liners poe paladins is a low-maintenance support class with impressive defensive characteristics. they fill the support role different from chanters and priests, but that is their role. http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66195-update-78-the-leaders-of-the-band-chanters-and-priests/ euba hates repetition, but he still ain't responded to the essential question: if you honestly don't believe that paladins is equal to priests and chanters in a support role, then how does giving them better dps and tank abilities make 'em better in support? HA! Good Fun!

the ie mod has/had more than a few quirks when attempting to respec. personally, we don't care about achievements, but we have trust issues with mods and the ie mod has fed our distrust. HA! Good Fun!

Are the on-kill procs for Paladins' affected areas still centered around the Paladin or are they centered around the kill event that procced it? I was a little disappointed that The Sword And The Shepherd worked like that, made it hard to maintain 4m from the enemies (for Wood Elf Accuracy boost) and remain within range of my front line so they could benefit properly from the heal. inspiring triumph, at the very least, centers on the paladin. just checked and killed a far distant skeleton ranger archer with a gun and still got a full party hit. more good news for paladins: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/77493-elemental-talents-bug/ at least one obsidian qa guy believes that scion of flame not modifying flames o' devotion is a bug... but you will likely need to wait til 1.05 to see that fixed. HA! Good Fun! ps although liberating exhortation is currently bugged, it has a fast cast time (as opposed to average), 2x the range o' suppress affliction and 4x the duration o' the aforemetioned priest spell and is a per encounter ability as opposed to those archaic quasi-vancian spells that reset per rest. better? is different.

That's a lot of words to basically give no explanation. you didn't say anything that we could respond to. don't tell you how to play a paladin? we ain't. we won't. paladins suck at support? that is your opinion which you offered no explanation to support. hypocrisy much? *shrug* most complaints (not all) about the paladin in this thread is stoopid... and weird. is just as ridiculous to demand more tanky abilities and more dps for priests and chanters, but the priests and chanters don't have the same ie and crpg baggage we s'pose. Gromnir likes to play combat priests, but we play them as support characters who can contribute melee or ranged damage beyond their spell arsenal. would be ludicrous for us to demand the developers make the priest more rogue-like or more fighterish just 'cause we wanna dps or tank with a priest. so, if you honestly don't believe that paladins is equal to priests and chanters in a support role, then how does giving them better dps and tank abilities make 'em better in support? wacky. HA! Good Fun!

it's not weaker. it's different. you saying that the paladin is bad doesn't make it so. the buffs can stack (though not universal) where spells do not and they do not require lengthy casting times. the paladin is more durable and has better defenses than the other support classes, particular compared to the priest. the paladin can use its buffs and debuffs and cleanses when necessary rather than relying on possibly ill-timed chants. the paladin is different. and am not telling people that they are playing the paladin wrong. people can play the paladin however they wish. its a role-play game. am telling folks that demanding the developers make the paladin a better striker or tank is peculiar and even wrong when the developers made it clear that the paladin is a freaking support class. if you don't like the paladin as a support class, then lobby to make it a better support class. like it or not, poe is a class-based system. play however you want , but trying get the developers to make the paladin a better tank or striker is exhibiting a fundamental lack o' comprehension o' the paladin's role in a Class-Based system. and if Gromnir is repeating self it is 'cause some folks likewise is repeating the same ridiculous complaints about the paladin's lack o' tankyness and dps. "Even Flames of Devotion, which most consider to be a generic damage skill, is better viewed in my opinion as another way to reinforce Paladins' supporty nature. Instead of using the ability to open a fight, for example, hold onto it until an enemy unit is low enough on health that the extra damage from FoD will ensure a last hit on it, ideally proccing a bunch of supporty effects as a result." agreed. our most recent paladin is a gun build that uses flames o' devotion to guarantee killing blows. it is very good support build. HA! Good Fun!

hey, thanks. am appreciating the response. HA! Good Fun!

the paladin is s'posed to be a support class. keep finding ways to make it a better tank or a big hitter is just so wrong. again, http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63968-update-56-paladins-and-wild-orlans/?hl=paladin is primarily a support class. some folks find the paladin to be inadequate in support, and while we don't necessarily agree, we do find the paladin gameplay to be boring. we can fully get behind suggestions that would make the paladin support abilities more engaging and maybe even give the paladin more impressive auras (though there is already abilities that do just that.) there is already striker/dps classes and tank classes that is more than adequate in their role. is no reason to try and make the paladin their equal at such stuff when the paladin is 'posed to be support. you didn't know what were the goals o' the developers for the paladin, and the developers were admitted unclear. made sense that you would want the poe paladin to be more like a bg2 paladin. well, now you do know, yes? is no longer an excuse for trying to make the paladin into a tank or striker class. HA! Good Fun!

is no difficulty answering that question as more than once Gromnir has seen durance get 2-shot and dead in hm. am not sure about the enemy casting time at the start o' a few battles as opponent priests and wizards or druids has, more than once, insta-cast serious spells at the start o' a set-piece battle. would very much have appreciated a paladin replacement for a few specific battles. HA! Good Fun!

Oh for crying out loud, what do you think the entire premise of your 1 argument for a respect feature is? is it anything BUT a strange egotistical anecdote? again, you is being obtuse beyond understanding. Gromnir keeps linking posts from other individuals as well as pointing to the extent o' difficulties faced by folks posting in tech support. our argument is kinda the opposite o' your single anecdote nonsense. again, duh. your continued (failed) attempts to mischaracterize our requests as a hurdle to bug fixing is laughable. add respec to the expansion. add respec to the next game. absence o' respec were a mistake for this game, so don't make the same mistake yet again. as for losing utility long run... HA! btw, every feature costs time and money. fix every broken feature costs time and money. identify that respec will cost time and money is, therefore, pointless. in any event, your short sightedness were assuming a poe respec wouldn't have utility short term and you were clear wrong. a limited respec feature is gonna have continuing use for as long as obsidian releases patches. poe is no different than any other sizeable crpg with complex rules mechanics-- it is going to have broken and unbalanced features, as well as obscure or misrepresented descriptions o' such features. the expansion will face a similar cycle o' patches and rebalancing and the sequel, if one is developed, will be no different. obsidians who take long view add respec. continued myopia ala stun results in the status quo. a feature that reduces the frustration o' players who must need deal with predictable and inevitable developer error is worthy o' consideration. the state o' poe at release, and following the first patch, should be making the inclusion o' at least a limited respec feature a no-brainer. bah. going in circles and at this point we should invoke the mercy rule for your benefit. HA! Good Fun!

is perhaps not a bug, and the issue existed before the 1.04 beta patch, but there is the continuing issue of no transparency regarding what the elemental talents such as scion of flame modify. scion does not, as far as Gromnir can tell, modify priest seal spells or any burn damage related to melee weapons... although am admitting we have not checked the flamey sword spell for druids. therefore, scion does not modify paladin weapon burn abilities or the fiery lash quality o' durance's staff. scion does work to modify many spells, but as we noted already, it doesn't alter seal spells for priests. also, we cannot tell if the elemental talents are factored into dot spells. feedback as to what the elemental talents do and don't modify would be helpful. HA! Good Fun!

But isn't that what a Priest is supposed to do? And Priest does it better I think.........so why should we bother with a Paladin? Specially when so many people consider Fighter class to be indispensable, specially for main tanking.... So why shouldn't we just get a Fighter (who you are going to get no matter what) and a Priest and get the best of both worlds, why should we bother with Paladin at all (and stay mediocre in both departments; tanking and support).....I mean I am having trouble understanding the design here, in all honesty. asked and answered. is not that priests do better in support but that they do different, and they is far more squishy when doing it. auras are not requiring casting, which in some battles is quite useful. paladin auras also stack different than priest spells, which is a major advantage when paired with a priest. and why not get a priest and a fighter? 1=1 1+1 = 2 paladin occupies one party slot. also, have a fighter and a priest don't make the priest any less squishy. is more than a few folks who like to have a party with two tanks, and a paladin secondary tank who can also add support functionality is a great fit in may parties. etc. paladins is different and they do tend to be boring in our estimation, but that is actually one o' their selling points, which bring us to... that is an opinion. Gromnir likes micromanagement, so priests don't pose a problem for us. nevertheless, one need not have followed these boards overmuch to recognize that a considerable % o' players find poe combat to be overwhelmingly frenetic and that they want far less micromanagement. HA! Good Fun!

oh, so not only your personal opinion, but based on limited anecdotal. how... quaint. doesn't do much for all those folks in tech support with their own opinions and different problems. and again, Gromnir is not advocating taking time away from bug fixing at this point. your are being willful obtuse again. we already noted that respec obviously and mistakenly were not added to poe. we observed that the question o' adding respec to poe were moot. nevertheless, that don't prevent the developers from correcting their lack of foresight by adding respec to the expansion or future games. unlike you, we ain't short sighted. we understand that feedback about poe is useful to the developers more in regards to future projects than for current ones. HA! Good Fun!

You're right, but the Paladin can be replaced in any role and get stomped by any other class in the game. HA! Good fun! is maybe not a fair criticism o' the paladin, but it has enough truth to warrant a response. the paladin is not as good a tank as the fighter, though some folks very vehemently disagree. on the other hand, the paladin kicks the fighter's arse at support functions such as buffing, debuffing and cleansing. the paladin will not be doing melee or ranged damage to eclipse the rogue, even if you build the paladin as pure dps. even so, the striker paladin laughs at rogue party buffs, and is far better from an overall defensive pov. even the limited function retaliation rogue don't have paladin defenses across the board. cc o' wizards and druids? no, the paladin doesn't compare, but see above for rogue and fighter comparisons. the paladin ain't s'posed to compete with the wizard and druid in a cc role. the priest. well, as a big fan o' priests, we will observe that they take a great deal o' micromanagement and they are squishy. so, if we want a less squishy support character that we not need to hand hold or hoard spells til halfway through the game, the paladin makes for a fine alternative. am not a fan of chanters til level 9 or so. chanters can be almost as good in a tanky role as paladins, and their chants and invocations are quite powerful. the thing is, unless you got two chanters in a party, the chants is fading in and out o' application, and battles is over far too frequent for us to make use o' chanter invocations. we find chanters to be big ugly teases. they should be great, and perhaps they are great, but so far we ain't been able to exploit their potential without having two chanters in a party, and we don't want that either. typically, when first reaching defiance bay, we dump the chanter and recruit the paladin. the paladin is a unique class, and it can be effective in any number o' party configurations... and for players such as Gromnir who refuse to wait on prima donna chanters. "But still that doesn't change the fact that most of the player base considers Paladin, an underdog." most o' the player base doesn't want the poe paladin to be a poe paladin-- they want an ie paladin. as we noted above, we suspect that the name is an insurmountable hurdle. change name to champion as infares suggests and a vast majority o' paladin complaints would disappear. however, your confusion about the paladin is not genuine your fault. no, the actual paladin archetype does not require that it be a great crpg striker/dps and have excellent tanky qualities to boot. but crpg conventions, being what they are, does result in certain reasonable expectations regarding classes, and obsidian has done a less than stellar job o' convincing the fan base that crpg preconceptions about paladins don't match the poe version. in fact, the obsidians has incrementally but inexorably caved to the expectations o' the fans rather than making the poe paladin a better POE paladin. HA! Good Fun!

there is no rational reason for punishing players who are attempting to correct or overcome developer error. HA! Good Fun!

the paladin has excellent buffs, debuffs and cleanses, but the paladin is not nearly as versatile as a priest. the paladin is a strong addition to the poe class lineup, but its role is misunderstood.... and it can be boring. the poe paladin is s'posed to play more like a 4e warlord or 3.5 marshal than an ie game paladin. have said it before, but the biggest mistake obsidian made with a few o' the classes were nothing more than their naming conventions. give very different poe classes the same names as ie classes were a mistake, and no matter how many times developers post stating that a poe paladin is not an ie paladin, some folks can't give up the ghost. HA! Good Fun!

oh, the hypocrisy. do you even read your own posts before you hit the "post" button? You're stating an opinion as fact. "I'm finding my Custom party far more satisfying (and much more powerful) than the mis-built NPCs Obsidian has presented to me. Moreover, I'm finding the Adventurer Hall feature to be a fantastic way to work around bugs, while I wait for Obsidian to patch my game." your solution, which is only a solution in a particular instance, is a solution for stun 'cause you believe it to be a solution. and your "more satisfying" and "fantastic way" nonsense is wonderful opinions, yes? thanks for sharing. on the other hand, one need only look at the tech support portion o' these boards for a few minutes to recognize that players other than stun have different opinions. you not needing respec fails to alter the Fact that many players do not share your opinion. and btw, we mean't "doesn't." it is possible that an expansion will add in respec. again, stun misses the point. learn english? funny and hypocritical. HA! Good Fun!

bump as an aside, Gromnir is very much aware that josh favors transparency o' mechanics. not knowing what a talent does would appear to contravene the core design goals o' poe, yes? HA! Good Fun!

uhm. we would say that one o' their main shortcomings is their lack o' versatility... though am admitting to lack o' comprehension regarding "usability." the paladin is a bit more flexible than a chanter we s'pose... maybe. by the end o' the game we would say chanters is more flexible as they will have a goodly number o' chants and invocations and a creative player can build a chanter that will be mighty effective in all situations. but paladins? auras are modal, but for all intents and purposes, they are always active. the paladin's abilities are, for the most part, situationally useful. what we mean is, there will be battles in which you won't feel the need or even a desire to use a few o' your abilities. however, if you happen to have party members knocked out or hobbled, perhaps you have a paladin ability that would make all the difference between success and failure for that encounter. dunno. we wouldn't suggest that the poe paladin is flexible. in fact, they is a bit like a toy robot that you wind up and then set loose. they just kinda keep grinding, seemingly unstoppable, til they run into a wall or some stairs. if you want to make a paladin that hits hard, you better plan out talents and abilities with some scrutiny as their role is as low-maintenance support character with impressive defensive characteristics. you can indeed makes a paladin capable o' delivering the smackdown, but doing so tends to require the sacrifice o' their support abilities or resilience. there is more than a few intriguing builds possible for the paladin. that being said, we kinda feel bad that the beta community were able to discourage the developers from maintaining the core philosophy o' the class. http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63968-update-56-paladins-and-wild-orlans/?hl=paladin the improvements sought by the community is not directed to accent the paladin as envisioned by obsidian. instead, players want the poe paladin to be more like paladins from other games, the ie games in particular. example: paladins weren't heavy hitters, so we got a d&d smite ability. *shrug* paladin improvements would be better spent on making the class better in support. make the paladin a better low-maintenance support character with impressive defensive characteristics. there is already dps/striker classes and tank classes amongst the 11 poe offerings. further attempts to make the paladin capable o' filling all roles defeats the whole point o' having eleven unique classes. HA! Good Fun!