Colrom

You may want to read a book on information theory too. The mathematics of thermodynamics and information theory overlap. (w00t)

Could somebody point me to a history of specific threats and implied threats made by Iran by Israel and by the US against other countries and to any records of past actions which might make those threats credable. That would seem to be relevant. With regard to the concept of appeasment - the word is most appropriately used to describe minor powers bending to threats by major powers - not major powers bending to girlish hysterical overblown fears of very minor powers. It is false to justify cold blooded murders of basically defenseless people based on wild and cowardly fears of what they might someday be able to do and also to call those who oppose those murders appeasers.

Not my intent. In fact, I think Commissar is quite intelligent and knowledgeable. As are most other folks here also. Hmmm.

I once interviewed for a job working on the development of military hardware and sometime in the middle of the interview decided that what the company was running was a high tech sweat shop - which wasn't anything I had in mind. I told them so and left. I imagine that game development can be much the same. Lots of really smart people doing creative work - but sometimes being treated badly by bad companies. But there are also good companies - here and there.

Hi Commissar. I think you already have killing weapons - legal weapons. I do take note that you have stated that you intend to kill me - which is profoundly different than a statement that I don't deserve to live or even a statement that someone should kill me. Your statement is a definite threat. No doubt about that. Hmmm. And I believe you have the means. I am concerned. For a variety of reasons, however, I don't believe that your threat is a great enough danger to justify significant actions, yet. In any case killing you would not be one of those actions. But if you pursue this matter further I will contact authorities and ask them to take some appropriate action. :angry: So far as I know Iran has not actually made threats against Israel or America or anyone else, although they have certainly indicated they don't like us much. The only concrete threats I know about are threats made by Americans against Iran. Threats like the one in this thread.

depends on how many the noble iranians put there in an attempt to make us look bad. uh, don't their current actions already start them down this path? dunno, but isn't this yet another double standard? i mean, isn't iran supposed to be NOT refining uranium in the first place? what about their leaders? double standard number four. or wait till they nuke israel, or iraq... given that they've already voiced their intent. duh. sure, why not. the iranians are probably hiding in a mosque. i always wonder about hypocrisy myself. taks <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So Taks, you seem to be very flip about killing people - at least Iranians. Or does your flip disregard for human life extend to other people as well? :'( Perhaps you ascribe to the new Bush doctrine. I think it says that it is OK to kill anyone that is imagined or dreamed might somehow be a danger someday. Ordinary people who have these kinds of beliefs are labeled as psychotic killers and are locked up. I hope you don't know where I live. " You don't, do you?

So, when the US or Israel launches an attack against Iranian nuclear production or refining facilities how many people will they kill? Do they become terrorists and criminals? Does the UN slap an embargo on the US or Isrqael so that citizens go without oil and maybe even food? Does somebody arrest the leaders? Or maybe launch missile strikes against them when they drive around? Can the leaders responsible go to Church or Synagogue? :D Just curious. "

I don't know about the C. S. Lewis quote. It doesn't seem like wisdom or knowledge to me. As for the subsequent discussion: The quote from Romans can be taken many ways - especially in view of the context. The quote from Revelation rejoices in the punishments of hell. Typical of Revelation. Many don't consider Revelation as Gospel. For example, Luther concluded it was not of God. I think he was right. Seems more like it might be Satan's work, actually. C.S. Lewis talks more about his views on little sins and big sins in the Screwtape Letters.

I came out as INFJ (33, 44, 12, 78).

I don't know about building a moral or ethical foundation on "science" but I know that there are people who have very good moral and ethical foundations that they believe are built on something other than religion. Some folks believe that the "truth' is so imbedded in reality that it is evident to anyone who chooses to accept what they see. Sometimes folks talk about certain people who are uninformed about Chritianity or are unbelievers of Christianity but who have Christian moral and ethical values as being "accidental Christians".

Someone earlier suggested that Judeo-Chritianity was inherently peaceful while Islam inherently violent, and they cited the holy books as evidence. Anyway, here's what Bill Moyers had to say about that in his piece "9/11 and the Sport of God", an article based on a speach he gave at Union Theological Seminary in early September 2005. First he spoke about Islamic violence. We are all familiar with that material. Then he continued: "The other side of the story: Muslims have no monopoly on holy violence. As Jack Nelson-Pallmayer points out, God's violence in the sacred texts of both faiths reflect a deep and troubling pathology "so pervasive, vindictive, and destructive" that it contradicts and subverts the collective weight of other passages that exhort ethical behavior or testify to a loving God. For days now we have watched those heart-breaking scenes on the Gulf Coast: the steaming, stinking, sweltering wreckage of cities and suburbs; the fleeing refugees; the floating corpses, hungry babies, and old people huddled together in death, the dogs gnawing at their feet; stranded children standing in water reeking of feces and garbage; families scattered; a mother holding her small child and an empty water jug, pleading for someone to fill it; a wife, pushing the body of her dead husband on a wooden plank down a flooded street; desperate people struggling desperately to survive. Now transport those current scenes from our newspapers and television back to the first Book of the Bible - the Book of Genesis. They bring to life what we rarely imagine so graphically when we read of the great flood that devastated the known world. If you read the Bible as literally true, as fundamentalists do, this flood was ordered by God. "And God said to Noah, 'I have determined to make an end of all flesh... behold, I will destroy them with the earth." (6:5-13). "I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall die." (6:17-19) Noah and his family are the only humans spared - they were, after all, God's chosen. But for everyone else: "... the waters prevailed so mightily... that all the high mountains....were covered....And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, birds, cattle, beasts...and every man; everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life, died...." (7:17-23). The flood is merely Act One. Read on: This God first "hardens the heart of Pharaoh" to make sure the Egyptian ruler will not be moved by the plea of Moses to let his people go. Then because Pharaoh's heart is hardened, God turns the Nile into blood so people cannot drink its water and will suffer from thirst. Not satisfied with the results, God sends swarms of locusts and flies to torture them; rains hail and fire and thunder on them destroys the trees and plants of the field until nothing green remains; orders every first-born child to be slaughtered, from the first-born of Pharaoh right on down to "the first-born of the maidservant behind the mill." An equal-murderous God, you might say. The massacre continues until "there is not a house where one was not dead." While the Egyptian families mourn their dead, God orders Moses to loot from their houses all their gold and silver and clothing. Finally, God's thirst for blood is satisfied, God pauses to rest - and boasts: "I have made sport of the Egyptians." Violence: the sport of God. God, the progenitor of shock and awe. And that's just Act II. As the story unfolds women and children are hacked to death on God's order; unborn infants are ripped from their mother's wombs; cities are leveled - their women killed if they have had sex, the virgins taken at God's command for the pleasure of his holy warriors. When his holy warriors spare the lives of 50,000 captives God is furious and sends Moses back to rebuke them and tell them to finish the job. One tribe after another falls to God-ordered genocide: the Hittites, the Girga****es, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites - names so ancient they have disappeared into the mists as fathers and mothers and brothers and sisters, grandparents and grandchildren, infants in arms, shepherds, threshers, carpenters, merchants, housewives - living human beings, flesh and blood: "And when the Lord your God gives them over to you, and you defeat them; then you must utterly destroy them; you shall make no covenant with them, and show no mercy to them...(and) your eyes shall not pity them." So it is written - in the Holy Bible. Yes, I know: the early church fathers, trying to cover up the blood-soaked trail of God's sport, decreed that anything that disagrees with Christian dogma about the perfection of God is to be interpreted spiritually. Yes, I know: Edward Gibbon himself acknowledged that the literal Biblical sense of God "is repugnant to every principle of faith as well as reason" and that we must therefore read the scriptures through a veil of allegory. Yes, I know: we can go through the Bible and construct a God more pleasing to the better angels of our nature (as I have done.) Yes, I know: Christians claim the Old Testament God of wrath was supplanted by the Gospel's God of love [see The God of Evil , Allan Hawkins, Exlibris.] I know these things; all of us know these things. But we also know that the "violence-of-God" tradition remains embedded deep in the DNA of monotheistic faith. We also know that fundamentalists the world over and at home consider the "sacred texts" to be literally God's word on all matters. Inside that logic you cannot read part of the Bible allegorically and the rest of it literally; if you believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, his crucifixion and resurrection, and the depiction of the Great Judgment at the end times you must also believe that God is sadistic, brutal, vengeful, callow, cruel and savage - that God slaughters. Millions believe it." Hope this helps. Regarding the question of whether creationism or intelligent design should be taught or even mentioned, I already said that I find creationism to be bad science and even bad religion and don't think it should be taught in school or in even in church. I find both the religious and the pseudo science arguments that are used to foster a belief in creationism truly wierd. For example, I don't understand how a person can say that the evolution of man is too complicated to have been a product of God's creation. On the other hand I agree that the convincing evidence of evolution can seriously test religious beliefs. Scientists have in the past decorated their presentations about evolution with language derived from the religiously based concept of human superiority. But many scientists are leaving that language out these days. Oh my! Drop the language of superiority and leave just the language of survival and folks may have visions that the ****roach might turn out to be "the fittest" and humans might turn out to be "inadaquate" and extinct. Not an acceptable vision for the future fate of creatures made in the image of God! I think this is the real issue in the debate about evolution.

Correction. The inquisitor who became Pope was Benedict XII.

In the case of the Cathars the Church under Innocent III and following Popes was determined to exterminate the Cathars by Crusades and Inquisition whether they spoke up or not. In fact the Cathars were well in hiding following on the Crusades which killed most of them when an Inquisition was launched to wipe them out completely. By the way, the techniques of later Inquisitions were perfected by the chief inquisitor against the Cathars who eventually became Benedict VII (I think). Eventually the Inquisition againt the Cathars brought about the betrayal of the last "Perfect" (a Cathar of highest pioty and regard) and killed him. It was not enough to be silent, Commissar.

The Army of the Free About 1862 In the army of the Union, We are marching in the van, And will do the work before us, If the bravest soldiers can; We will drive the Rebel forces From their strongholds to the sea. And will live and die together In the Army of the Free. The Army of the Free, We will live and die together In the Army of the Free. We may rust beneath inaction, We may sink beneath disease The summer sun may scorch us Or the winter's blast may freeze, But whatever may befall us, We will let the Rebels see, The unconquered we shall still remain The Army of the Free. The Army of the Free, Unconquered we shall remain The Army of the Free. We are the best division of A half a million souls, And only resting on our arms Till the war cry onward rolls; When our gallant General Porter calls, Why ready we shall be, To follow him forever With the Army of the Free. The Army of the Free, We will follow him forever With the Army of the Free. We have Butterfield the daring And we've Martindale the cool, Where could we learn the art of war Within a better school, Add Morel to the list of names, And we must all agree, We have the finest Generals In the Army of the Free. The Army of the Free, We have the finest Generals In the Army of the Free. Though we live in winter quarters now, We're waiting but the hour, When Porter's brave division Shall go forth in all its power, And when on the field of battle, Fighting we shall be, We'll show that we cannot disgrace The Army of the Free. The Army of the Free, We'll show that we cannot disgrace The Army of the Free. Then hurrah for our division, May it soon be called to go, To add its strength to those who have Advanced to meet the foe; God bless it, for we know right well, Wherever it may be, 'Twill never fail to honor our great Army of the Free. The Army of the Free, Twill never fail to honor our great Army of the Free.

The Battle Cry of Freedom 1862 Music and Lyrics by George Frederick Root "Yes we'll rally 'round the flag, boys, we'll rally once again, Shouting the battle cry of Freedom, We will rally from the hillside we'll gather from the plain, Shouting the battle cry of Freedom." Chorus: "The Union forever, Hurrah, boys, Hurrah! Down with the traitor, Up with the star; While we rally round the flag, boys, Rally once again, Shouting the battle cry of Freedom." "We are springing to the call of our brothers gone before, Shouting the battle cry of Freedom, And we'll fill the vacant ranks with a million Free men more, Shouting the battle cry of Freedom." (Chorus) "We will welcome to our numbers the loyal, true and brave, Shouting the battle cry of Freedom, And although he may be poor he shall never be a slave, Shouting the battle cry of Freedom." (Chorus) "So we're springing to the call from the East and from the West, Shouting the battle cry of Freedom, And we'll hurl the rebel crew from the land we love the best, Shouting the battle cry of Freedom." (Chorus)

Wait for the Wagon R. Bishop Buckley and George P. Knaeff Published 1851 Will you come with me my Phyllis dear To yon blue mountain free? Where the blossoms smell the sweetest, Come rove along with me. It's every Sunday morning When I am by your side, We'll jump into the wagon And we'll all take a ride. Chorus Wait for the wagon, Wait for the wagon Wait for the Wagon And we'll all take a ride. Where the river runs like silver And the birds they sing so sweet I have a cabin, Phyllis, And something good to eat; Come listen to my story, It will relieve my heart; So jump into the wagon, And off we will start. Chorus Together, on life's journey, We'll travel till we stop, And if we have no trouble, We'll reach the happy top; Then come with me, sweet Phyllis, My dear, my lovely bride, We'll jump into the wagon, And all take a ride. Chorus

Some examples of terrorism: KKK burning crosses and hanging and otherwise killing blacks. Joe McCarthy and the witch hunt for communists. Maybe - the Duck and Cover campaign - although I'm not sure about that.

1. A single instance of torture is just torture, as I said. Torture is just the administration of physical or psychological punishment. But a policy of a) conducting torture on persons of some type, and b) publicizing that practice to the audience of that type goes beyond just torture (done on an individual for the sake of extracting information or coercing individual performance) and becomes terrorism (done to a group in order to achieve a state of fear. When these elements are combined by a government like Saddam's or by our forces then they constitute terrorism. The US practice of torture and publicizing of it is terrorism. You didn't think that all of that publicity was a mistake did you? - for example: dental tools in Sadams mouth, pictures of captives with bags over their heads which restrict breathing as well as sight, with blindfolds and earmufs on, the odd picture of captives with a US soldiers foot on their face - and that's just a small part of what we see and hear about . 2. The shock and awe campaign went beyond the needs of military killing into the realm of inducing terror. Terrorism has often been practiced in war. German Stuka dive bomb attacks on fleeing civilians to induce terror and block roads for example. But not all elements of war involve terrorism. Also, just as torture isn't always terrorism war isn't always terrorism but it can be. 3. If you look into the details of the US campaign against Falluja you will find that the US commander did in fact issue and ultimatum against the threat of decapitation (my word - not his) of the city. Perhaps you haven't been paying close attention. 4 and 5. You seem to recognize terrorism when the folks doing it are wearing sandals. Your arbitrary - presumably politicaly motivated - restriction of the concept of terrorism to groups who are less powerful is just the kind of BS I was talking about. See the origin ofthe word for a counter example to your spin.

Alot of folks want to play games with the word terrorism. I think it is a fine word when used to descibe a policy/program/philosophy/whatever focusing on the inducement of terror on targets. For example: 1. Torture is a terror technique. Those who use it in a coordinated way are terrorists as well as torturers. So this would include those US military and mercenaries they employ who are tasked to carry out torture as part of their interrogations. It is especially telling that torturers generally want to have it known that they use such tactics and will publicize it themselves in various ways - but they do not want to debate it and so they need to manage the news carefully. So they wish to induce terror on all members of the target group even and maybe especially those who are not yet strapped on the rack as it were. 2. Shock and awe is terror and bringing it about with artillary and bombs is terrorism. 3. Surrounding a town with barb wire and artillary and demanding that certain people be handed over or else, and then carrying out a bombardment and assualt when terms are not met - is part of a terror campaign. 4. Random bombings of target civilians is terrorism. 5. Holding individual hostages (rather than whole towns) and making demands or else and then carrying out videotaped murders when the terms are not met - is part of a terror campaign. All that is required in my mind is that it be a conscious program of propaganda and actions designed to induce terror - and by that means bring about some other objective - such as meeting demands. All those definitions that seek to limit the application of the word to selected groups are so much propaganda BS. Speaking of propaganda and twisting of words, how about the "yes man" ads on TV? Nice spinmanship, eh!

Richmond is a Hard Road to Travel Anonymous Would you like to hear my song? I'm afraid it's rather long, Of the famous "On to Richmond" double trouble; Of the half a dozen trips and half a dozen slips And the very latest bursting of the bubble. 'Tis pretty hard to sing and, like a round, round ring, 'Tis a dreadful knotty puzzle to unravel; Though all the papers swore, when we touched Virginia's shore, That Richmond was a hard road to travel. Then pull off your overcoat and roll up your sleeve, For Richmond is a hard road to travel. Then pull off your overcoat and roll up your sleeve, For Richmond is a hard road to travel, I believe. First McDowell, bold and gay, set forth the shortest way By Manassas in the pleasant summer weather But unfortunately ran on a Stonewall (foolish man!) And had a rocky journey altogether. And he found it rather hard to ride over Beauregard And Johnston proved a deuce of a bother. 'Twas clear beyond a doubt that he didn't like the route And a second time would have to try another. Then pull off your overcoat and roll up your sleeve, For Manassas is a hard road to travel. Manassas gave us fits, and Bull Run made us grieve, For Richmond is a hard road to travel, I believe. Next came the Wooly Horse with an overwhelming force To march down to Richmond by the Valley, But he couldn't find the road, and his onward movement showed His campaigning was a mere shilly-shally. Then Commissary Banks, with his motley foreign ranks Kicking up a great noise, fuss, and flurry, Lost the whole of his supplies and with tears in his eyes From the Stonewall ran away in a hurry. Then pull off your overcoat and roll up your sleeve, For the Valley is a hard road to travel. The Valley wouldn't do, and we all had to leave, For Richmond is a hard road to travel, I believe. Then the great Galena came, with her portholes all aflame, And the Monitor, that famous naval wonder, But the guns at Drury's Bluff gave them speedily enough The loudest sort of reg'lar Rebel thunder. The Galena was astonished and the Monitor admonished, Our patent shot and shell were mocked at, While the dreadful Naugatuck, by the hardest kind of luck, Was knocked into an ugly ****ed hat. Then pull off your overcoat and roll up your sleeve, For James River is a hard road to travel. The gunboats gave up in terror and despair, For Richmond is a hard road to travel, I declare. Then McClellan followed soon, both with spade and balloon, To try the Peninsular approaches, But one and all agreed that his best rate of speed Was no faster than the slowest of slow coaches. Instead of easy ground, at Williamsburg he found A Longstreet indeed and nothing shorter. And it put him in the dumps that spades wasn't trumps And the Hills he couldn't level "as he orter!" Then pull off your overcoat and roll up your sleeve, For Longstreet is a hard road to travel. Lay down the shovel and throw away the spade, For Richmond is a hard road to travel, I'm afraid. Then said Lincoln unto Pope, "You can make the trip, I hope." "I will save the universal Yankee nation! "To make sure of no defeat, I'll leave no lines of retreat, "And issue a famous proclamation!" But that same dreaded Jackson, this fella laid his whacks on And made him, by compulsion, a seceder. Pope took rapid flight from Manassas' second fight, 'Twas his very last appearance as a leader. Then pull off your overcoat and roll up your sleeve, Stonewall is a hard road to travel. Pope did his very best but was evidently sold, For Richmond is a hard road to travel, I am told. Last of all Burnside, with his pontoon bridges, tried A road no one had thought of before him, With two hundred thousand men for the Rebel slaughter pen And the blessed Union flag waving o'er him. He met a fire like hell of canister and shell That mowed down his men with great slaughter. 'Twas a shocking sight to view, that second Waterloo, And the river ran more with blood than water. Then pull off your overcoat and roll up your sleeve, Rappahannock is a hard road to travel. Burnside got in a trap, which caused him for to grieve, For Richmond is a hard road to travel, I believe. We are very much perplexed to know who is the next To command the new Richmond expedition, For the capital must blaze, and that in ninety days, And Jeff and his men be sent to perdition. We'll take the cursed town, and then we'll burn it down And plunder and hang each cursed Rebel. Yet the contraband was right when he told us they would fight: "Oh, yes, massa, dey will fight like the debil!" Then pull off your overcoat and roll up your sleeve, For Richmond is a hard road to travel. Then pull off your overcoat and roll up your sleeves, For Richmond is a hard road to travel, I believe.

Strange Fruit Sung by Billie Holiday Music and Lyrics by Lewis allen Southern trees bear strange fruit, Blood on the leaves and blood at the root, Black bodies swinging in the southern breeze, Strange fruit hanging from the poplar trees. Pastoral scene of the gallant south, The bulging eyes and the twisted mouth, Scent of magnolias, sweet and fresh, Then the sudden smell of burning flesh. Here is fruit for the crows to pluck, For the rain to gather, for the wind to suck, For the sun to rot, for the trees to drop, Here is a strange and bitter crop.

Imagine George Bush, Osama bin Ladin, Milosevic and Saddam charged and convicted for their attrocities and incarcerated in adjoining cells.

Some that spring to mind: Blade Runner (original version) West Side Story Oliver Stand By Me Saving Private Ryan Schindler's List

I thought "Boondock Saints" was interesting because - to my mind - starting from a beguiling premise of goodness and justice it leads viewers further and further into rationalization of depravity and evil.

The following exerpts are taken from "Our Godless Constitution" by Brooke Allen in The Nation, February 21, 2005. "Our Constitution makes no mention whatever of God. The omission was too obvious to have been anything but deliberate, in spite of Alexander Hamilton's flippant responses when asked about it: According to one account, he said that the new nation was not in need of "foreign aid"; according to another, he simply said "we forgot." But as Hamilton's biographer Ron Chernow points out, Hamilton never forgot anything important." "In the eighty-five essays that make up The Federalist, God is mentioned only twice (both times by Madison, who uses the word, as Gore Vidal has remarked, in the "only Heaven knows" sense)." "In the Declaration of Independence, He gets two brief nods: a reference to "the Laws of Nature and Nature's God," and the famous line about men being "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights." " "More blatant official references to a deity date from long after the founding period: "In God We Trust" did not appear on our coinage until the Civil War, and "under God" was introduced into the Pledge of Allegiance during the McCarthy hysteria in 1954 [see Elisabeth Sifton, "The Battle Over the Pledge," April 5, 2004]." "In 1797 our government concluded a "Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, or Barbary," now known simply as the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 of the treaty contains these words: As the Government of the United States...is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion--as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity of Musselmen--and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. This document was endorsed by Secretary of State Timothy Pickering and President John Adams. It was then sent to the Senate for ratification; the vote was unanimous. It is worth pointing out that although this was the 339th time a recorded vote had been required by the Senate, it was only the third unanimous vote in the Senate's history. There is no record of debate or dissent. The text of the treaty was printed in full in the Philadelphia Gazette and in two New York papers, but there were no screams of outrage, as one might expect today." "