ushas

I think this may be related to the issue when temporarily suspended afflictions aren't properly woken after end of this spell: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/71341-435-priest-is-suppress-affliction-spell-cancelling-instead-of-suspending/ Having similar issue, testing several effects, it seems to me that most of them though probably not providing any more debuff after end of Suppress Affiction spell, they disappear from the tooltip with the end of combat. However in case of Blinded affliction, it's icon preserves after the combat and even after resting/traveling. You used word "some". Do you know of other effects (icons) which end up persistent out of combat after being suspended by this spell? edit Yeah very soon like ~right now:) Thanks for the tips. But I didn't test all the afflictions, so if anybody has something else to add to those bugs it would be probably useful.

Edit: (BBv480, linux), this report isn't for previous version. Sorry for the wrong version in the thread title. [Problem] There are several issues with spell Suppress Affliction: 1. Description doesn't clearly explain, that only afflictions, which are active at the time when Suppress Affliction is cast, are suspended. 2. Description shows only base spell duration (15 sec), even through this duration scales with Int of character. 3. Spell itself doesn't look like it temporary suspends afflictions, as stated in the description, but cancels them -- tested effects aren't probably reapplied again after end of suppression. 4. Also those cancelled afflictions are shown in the tooltip next to character portrait till end of combat (there is no timer). Icon of one of the tested afflictions - Blinded - preserves even after combat. Tested afflictions: Blinded, Sickened, Hobbled, Flanked, Stunned, Dazed [Examples and how to reproduce] For points 1. & 2. see picture below (BB Priest with Int=20): Add 3. & 4.: How to reproduce: 1. Enter the combat and cast a spell which grants one of the afflictions (eg. Blinding Web -> Hobbled), so that it targets also one of the party members. 2. Use BB Priest to cast Suppress Affliction on the friendly Hobbled target. 3. We can check that it's effect is nullified, Hobbled is erased from character sheet, though it is shown as an icon in the tooltip next to character portrait. 4. After end of Suppress Affliction spell, the effect of Hobbled isn't reapplied again (and timer isn't running). One concrete example: BB Fighter is affected by Dazed & Blinded (Cipher: Eyestrike): Note: Defl. and Refl. defences should be by 1 point lower here. But this is another bug, related to low attributes. Then when Suppress Affliction takes an effect: After end of the spell, no reapplied debuff + persistent icons in the tooltip: [Expected behavior] The spell can better communicate how it's working. Also an actual spell duration in the description would be useful. In case of suppression itself, suspended effects should be probably reapplied after end of the spell with continuing timer. Or in case it works as intended, the description should be changed accordingly and also the icons of afflictions should be cleared from the tooltip. [Comments] Possibly related to the Tanred's report: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/71006-480-obsolete-effects-dont-disappear-from-the-effects-tooltipcharacter-sheet/

That combat log

eh, sorry for misleading:) I guess you are referring to one when description of Soul whip changes when you are in combat and have Biting whip talent -- there was x2.4 damage written.

So it looks like it enhances. Cipher (9 Might) with Biting whip + Superb Arbales with Crushing Lash against targer with Pierce DR=10 and Crush DR=12.5: Damage range = (32 - 40) * [ 1.0 - 0.03(might) + 0.45(quality) + 0.2(soul whip) + 0.2(biting whip) ] = (58.24 - 72.80) Piercing In combat log: (70.6 - DR:10) = 60.8 Pierce + 14.5 Crush Which fits to the estimated range. Meaning, the Biting whip also contributes to the Lash damage: (70.6 - DR:12.5) / 4 = 14.525 Crush From this attack Cipher gets 18 Focus <- (60.8 + 14.5) / 4 = 18.825 So I guess Ciphers may embrace lash enchantments?

Thanks for the insight. It's definitely useful consider the level progression of class. Just, I'm not sure whether I get calculations you are making there. Lets consider this: Shouldn't be damage calculation done additive? Sensuki and others were posting proposals to change x1.2 to +20% in descriptions, because that would be probably more clear. But that's probably not case of Lashes, those were in the last Beta calculated from whole damage (which is lowered by the corresponding DR). If I would take your average damage 60. My guess is that the calculation may be Normal Cipher with Might 18 and superb quality: 60 x [ 1.0 + 0.24(might) + 0.45(quality) + 0.2(base Soul Whip)] = 113.40 Pierce + 28.35 Burn -> 35 Focus The same Cipher with Biting Whip talent: 60 x [ 1.0 + 0.24(might) + 0.45 (quality) + 0.2 (base Soul Whip) + 0.2 (Biting Whip talent)] = 125.40 Pierce + 31.35 Burn -> 39 Focus ? I was assuming burn DR == pierce DR This may be wrong, so feel free to correct it. Also I'm not sure about Lashes, you raised a good point. I will try to check it too.

(BBv480, linux) [Problem] Talent Greater Focus should grant +10 to maximum Focus. This probably works after taking the talent when leveling up. However when I save game and then reload it (tried F8), the bonus is not applied any more. [How to reproduce] For example: 1. Start a new game and create Cipher character. 2. Level up and take Greater Focus talent. 3. Save the game and then reload it. 4. Participate in combat with this character by dealing weapon damage, filling up the Focus. At this point the game doesn't let Focus rise above original maximum. Although if I skip the point 3 (so not saving/reloading game after level up), talent works as intended. Supplementary picture below shows the moment in combat when Soul Whip ability is deactivated upon reaching maximum Focus (left is directly after obtaining the talent, right the same after reload): The character here is Cipher at lvl 4. [Expected behavior] Talent should provide bonus to max Focus all the time.

[Problem] Biting Whip talent states in its description that it modifies Soul Whip by x1.2 Damage. Soul Whip description then puts together the original and the additional bonus as: Self x1.2 Damage, x1.2 Damage However, in combat mode when Soul Whip ability is active, the same description (and character sheet active effects section) display: Self x2.4 Damage See picture below (left in normal game, right in combat): [Expected behavior] Description of the ability should be the same regardless of the game mode. It should probably show something like: Self x1.2 Damage, x1.2 Damage or Self x1.4 Damage or Self +40% [Comments] I think damage modifiers probably work as intended (together +40% damage), so the bug is only in the descriptions during combat mode?

[Problem] Poorly explained and possibly confusing Focus and Soul Whip ability of Cipher class. [Discussion] In game one can see some info on character creation, then in game in the description of Soul Whip ability and there is also a loading tip: I think the loading tip is the least confusing. There are some possible questions the player can ask: -- What defines maximum Focus? (What is this number player sees?) -- How is the level progression of the mechanics? -- How is Focus gained though Soul Whip ability related to the weapon damage? (is it related to the amount of dmage or flat increase?) -- Is the Soul Whip active always when Focus isn't full? [Expected behavior] In case there would be some further descriptions pass, it would be useful if specific mechanics for each class are explained in game in more detail. In BB some information is only provided on character creation (such as class progressions) or as loading screen tips, which you have a chance not encounter at all in time of need. In case of Cipher, perhaps it would be also useful to show the maximum focus. (maybe in the Focus tooltip in the corner of character portrait?) [Comments] Some possibly useful information not explained in game (may be wrong, as obtained by trial and error): Cipher character has Focus level progression: Focus = (15 + 5 * (LVL-1)) -> so it's 15 at lvl 1, 20 at lvl 2, and so on. This number is available at the start of combat. Maximum_Focus = 2 * Focus. -> 30 at lvl 1, 40 at lvl 2, and so on. Soul Whip is probably combat only ability as there is a combat log line informing about it's activation. (not mentioned) When being under it's maximum, Focus is replenished on each successful weapon hit (graze/hit/crit) and the income is estimated as 25% of total damage done (after DR substraction) rounded down. Note: It's possible the game uses Focus as float number under the hood, but player sees integer anyway.

If you want to cast more with a cipher, it is better to use guns, to get big chunks of focus from a single high damage shot. Cipher is not very good in melee, having to cast their often lengthy powers in melee risks interrupts, plus there's just the simple fact that ciphers are not very durable. Some quick tests shooting some Skaen nubs: Hunting Bow -> 27 damage, gained 6 focus. Crossbow -> 42 damage, gained 11 focus. Leadsplitter -> Doesn't display its damage(but all shots hitting/grazing), gained 31 focus Arquebus -> 109 damage, gained 27 focus That's without draining whip. With draining whip - Hunting Bow -> 22 damage, gained 8 focus Crossbow -> 40 damage, gained 12 focus Leadsplitter -> (all shots hitting/grazing), gained 44 focus. Arquebus -> 72(grazed) damage, gained 19 focus Keep in mind a few of these may've been overkill shots(more damage than target has stamina left) not sure if that affects anything. Biting whip gets you more focus from dealing more damage which is nice on its own, which makes it IMO the better talent. But draining whip does seem to give its bonus on hit rather per/damage from what I can tell. It's hard to tell with leadsplitter. Ah. thank for that data. Sorry I didn't saw your post before. Biting whip is hard to test as it's another damage modifier for randomly pulled damage from the range. Isn't it like +20%, so together with the basic whip +40% when under maximal Focus?

Good question. I think +2 bonus is actually applied per each hit/graze/crit -> each successfully landed projectile:) In comparison, the basic Whip ability sums all the AOE damage and rounds down 25% of it... It's like to have two different mechanics. So in case of Blunderbusess the talent may be even more useful, I guess? I think what Odd Hermit says is also interesting regardless to weapons. You start combat with amount of Focus, which is actually 1/2 of maximal Focus one can reach, or so. One of the viable tactics may be to start with generating more Focus first and then unleash Cipher powers... Sorry in case stating obvious. The mechanic isn't explained well. Correct me if wrong, I think the level progression is: Focus = (15 + 5 * (LVL - 1)) Focus_max = 2 * Focus.

after, it's simply adds +2 Well you also have to be in combat mode, as Soul Whip activates after start of combat. I think when opening fight on neutral NPCs this bonus will not be applied (but the basic whip income still works, looks slightly inconsistent). Did some tests a few days ago about this, but I don't have the game at hand now to back this up.

I think it's something like rounded down 1/4 of total damage done (eg. 18 dam -> +4 Focus). So dependant on the amount of damage after DR substraction. But also you have to hit the target, no Focus on miss.

That's interesting question. I wonder about the 2H 50% longer recovery... In game there are these vague data for speeds: Fast: fast 1H weapons, Wand, Sceptre Average: normal 1 H weapons, Rod, War Bow, Hunting Bow Slow: 2H weapons, crossbow Very slow: Pistol, Blunderbuss, Arbalest Extremely Slow: Arquebus Now, does this also take into account recovery time? (and reload time?) As 2H are in the slow category compare to 1H, I would say yes, but isn't there different speed between bows?

Thanks. Does this mean 1H single is also speed for 1H + shield? I thought there was originally some recovery time penalty for weapon & shield style. Sorry for being probably ignorant now.

(linux, BBv480) [Problem] When a party member has enough experience to level up, the cross/plus icon appears on top of the portrait. In combat mode, this icon isn't present most of the time, but time to time blinks back to it's initial position. [How to reproduce] For example: 1. Start the game with a new character, don't level up, so the this element is visible over the portrait. 2. Start the combat, execute some action, such as an attack, and observe the blinking. Or if you manage to earn enough experience for the next level for the whole party, the party roster will blink like a christmas tree in the subsequent fight. [Expected behavior] The game should either show the level up cross all the time. We aren't allowed to level up in combat and the combat log informs about this. So this probably wouldn't bring much issues. Or make the icon fully disappear in the combat mode, without blinking. [Comments] As it is now, I'm not sure, but I think it's connected to the unit's action. When moving or idle, the cross is visible. It's not shown during recovery or action time. But it very briefly reappears (blinks) on the switch between the states recovery <-> action. Just in case the blinking is going to stay in game, I would like to ask to make it synchronized with the combat music;)

(linux, BBv480) [Problem] If player reloads the game (F8 key), when an ability/item tooltip is currently on screen, the tooltip persists partially to the loading screen, as well as it's still present no the newly loaded game screen. The persisted tooltip doesn't disappear until the mouse hovering over another ability icon. This happens probably for all the ability tooltips as well as for quick items and weapons in sets tooltips, and also in case of tooltips of special icons of several classes (in the right bottom corner of portraits): Focus (Ciphers), Wounds (Monk), Phrases (Chanters). The loading screen persistence alone happens also for active effects tooltips (icons next to a party member portrait). [How to reproduce] 1. Quick save the game by F5. Select a character and mouse over an ability in the ability bar. 2. Press F8 key and observe the tooltip text on the loading screen. 3. When loaded game, there would be probably tooltip window still on screen. Supplementary screenshots for steps 2 and 3: In case of active effects tooltips, they aren't present in the loaded game any more, but the loading screen text persistent still happens, see picture below: [Expected behavior] No tooltip should persist on loading screen or onto the newly loaded game screen. [Comments] In BBv435, there was a bug of the enemy tooltip persistence, which looks like already solved in BBv480: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/70363-435-persistent-enemy-tooltips/?hl=persistent Perhaps this issue shares similar roots?

Bumping for BB480. - Many food consumables and Potions show on the description windows prolonged time of duration, multiplicatively estimated from Intellect & Survival modifiers. - Drugs usually display only base unmodified range in items' descriptions. - All these three groups of consumables probably actually use only Survival modifier when the item is consumed. [How to reproduce] For example 1. Take BB Priest (Int 18 -> +40% duration, Survival 2 -> +10% duration) 2. Take a look at the description of Ixamitl Ricepan. There will be 231 sec duration (base 150 sec) as estimated by multiplicative combination of both modifiers. 3. Consume the food and observe in the tooltip or on character sheet that the real time used in game will be 165 sec (+10% from survival skill). [Expected behavior] The descriptions should reflect the real behavior of items. In all instances, either use additive estimation from both modifiers or only from Survival skill, if that's intended.

Sorry for misleading. I actually cannot summon Superb armors by AddItem. So there are done some interpolations, namely all the prices of superb items. Now you mentioning, wasn't there actually info that the Superb Plate Armor wouldn't be in game at all?... Or I may mistake it with something. My guess is that the Exceptional Plate can cost 800cp instead of 600cp (as it's now in game)...

For those who are interested in armors, the Damage Reduction table sits below. Kudos to Sensuki for checking out the percentages of armors. Numbers which BBv480 probably uses: Rounded DR numbers, which are shown on character sheet and in descriptions: Basically, quality enchantments add bonus to the base DR value of the armor (+2 Fine/+4 Exceptional/+6 Superb). Then the individual DR subtypes are reestimated as percentages of this new base DR. Compare to the flat increase -- the "better" DRs rise faster with the quality and the grow of the "worse" DRs is slower.

Nice. Does all those abilities scale with Might? (i guess you used something like Might=10 & Int=10 here?) Perhaps Silver Tide scale with lvl but not with Might...

Suggestions for possible better usability of weapon damage ranges: There are two basic assumptions taken into account here: -- Developers intend to provide as much info as possible, which is needed for understanding damage calculations done in the game; -- As well as want to provide ready to go UI where players see right away the changes, so they don't need to fully understand the rules and do the math, when making decisions. If I'm wrong either in the assumptions or calculations, I would be grateful for any corrections or critique. 1) Character sheet: Besides the damage calculation correction, it would be useful, if all the damage modifiers actually in use are included in the damage range on the character sheet. How it is now (BBv480): If I turn on modal talent it's probably included (for example Savage Attack talent), but the spell Blessing, which also gives +10% to damage, doesn't change the range presented on the character sheet. I don't know whether it isn't some possible bug, but other abilities or talents haven't been tested. 2) Tooltips: Provide two damage ranges in the item tooltip -- one which is equal to that on the character sheet and the second one which is equal to the damage range of the item itself (without the personal modifiers, listed in the item description). The duality itself and the second option in the brackets are already in game. So I'm basically only proposing to unify the first damage range with the character sheet info. Besides minimizing the confusion from different damage ranges, this may be useful for to see outcome for the selected character without the need to check the character sheet, as well as when comparing weapons between each other. (both would be useful also in shops) 3) Descriptions and the real base damage: Provide the real base damage range in the item's descriptions and don't label the damage range in the tooltips as the "base". This suggestion is done with a need of the damage formula explanation on mind, basically in compliance with Sensuki's suggestions for Cyclopedia. For further details see http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/70820-poorly-explained-mechanics-in-the-cyclopedia/?p=1579078 The original cyclopedia page explaining damage and the Sensuki's proposal in that thread are using words "base damage", which is the same as is used in the damage calculations in the previous posts. So in the case of Great Swords it's always (14-20) Slash/Pierce. However, this is not the same "base" which is displayed in tooltips in the brackets (the current beta v480). So I think, that may be possible source of confusion, when interested players may accidentally use the range from the tooltips as the base for the additive estimations. Taking into account all three proposals here, the screenshot from the report above can look like this: Below is also mockup of the same screenshot as above providing possibly more detailed info:

[bBv480] Due to changes in some damage ranges, perhaps an updated report would be useful: [Problem] Short version: The character sheet is still displaying higher damage than used in the game, as reported for the beta v435. There are also perhaps several possible sources of confusion, namely due to different damage ranges of weapons presented without further explanation. [More detailed example] BB Priest + Exceptional Great Sword: Damage modifiers in use: Exceptional property of item: +30% Might modifier (17 Might): +21% Two-handed Style Talent: +10% Game provides damage information in several instances. For the above specified setup, see picture below. Now one can guess which of these damage ranges are actually in use in game when attacking? a) Character sheet info; b) Tooltip damage range; c) Damage from item description window. Answer: To my limited knowledge neither of them. Sorry for a tricky question:) However this is not some big revelation, as in my opinion there is only one still the same possible bug. Several damage calculations for comparison purposes (feel free to skip): Base damage of Great Sword: (14-20) Item property included: min: 14 * (1.00 + 0.30) = 18.200 max: 20 * (1.00 + 0.30) = 26.000 Item property + might modifier: Additive: min: 14 * (1.0 + 0.30 + 0.21) = 21.140 max: 20 * (1.0 + 0.30 + 0.21) = 30.200 Multiplicative: min: 14 * (1.0 * 1.30 * 1.21) = 22.022 max: 20 * (1.0 * 1.30 * 1.21) = 31.460 Item property + might modifier + Two-handed style talent: Additive: min: 14 * (1.0 + 0.30 + 0.21 + 0.10) = 22.540 max: 20 * (1.0 + 0.30 + 0.21 + 0.10) = 32.200 Multiplicative: min: 14 * (1.0 * 1.30 * 1.21 * 1.10) = 24.224 max: 20 * (1.0 * 1.30 * 1.21 * 1.10) = 34.606 According to the combat log and the assumptions taken in the previous post, the game actually uses the additive calculation. So the normal hit damage will probably lie in the range: (22.54 - 32.20) -> when rounded it's (23 - 32) Now if we compare this to the info provided by game, my speculations for individual sources are: a) Character sheet: 24 - 35 -> takes into account all the used modifiers here but wrongly uses the rounded multiplicative calculation when showing the numbers. This is in my opinion probably the bug. b) Item tooltip: 21 - 30 (base 18 - 26) -> fits additive calculation, includes might modifier and item property, not the talent though. This is probably not a bug. However, I'm not sure whether it's intended like this, or it's work in progress. (In the past beta the behavior was similar) c) Item description: 18 - 26 -> Compare to the past beta, an item description now takes into account only item's properties -> Exceptional quality here (so not outside personal modifiers such as might one). This is probably intentional change. [Expected behavior] Character sheet should display the real damage range used in game, including all the actual damage modifiers in use estimated by additive calculation.

Bumping for BBv480. If it's useful, I would like to add that the wrong negative modifier of defences from the sum of attributes doesn't only influence party members, but also enemies. In several instances, as a result of this issue they have a higher defence than should or the defence number isn't lowered enough by used debuff ability/spell. -> So this time it also works against the player. For example, Stone Beetle & BB Rogue ability Blinding strike: On PoD difficulty Stone beetle has this attributes and defences: Dexterity: 8, Perception: 12, Resolve: 12 Deflection: 56, Reflex: 47 Now we can see that in the beginning the modifiers from attributes aren't negative and thus probably working right (+0 to Refl from sum of Dex & Per, +4 to Defl from sum of Per & Res). Blinding strike gives Blinded affliction: -25 accuracy, -4 Perception, -2 Move speed, -20 Reflex, -20 Deflection When the enemy is affected by the debuff, the modifier from the sum of Dexterity and Perception becomes negative: [ ( Per - 10 ) * 2 + ( Dex - 10 ) * 2 ] = -8 to Reflex So the new Reflex number should be 47 - 20 - 8 = 19. But the resulting Reflex defence used in game is 1 point higher. For example, see the scenario of three attack following each other in game: Deflection: 32 Reflex: 20

Just in case in wasn't already considered - the player can also bind the Alt key as a hotkey. So when it happens by pressing Alt the game will assume we are using the ability and also switches to/out scounting mode at the same time.