Michael_Galt

I just figured out the problem... I "upgraded" to Windows 10 earlier this year... and they gave me the 32bit version. So, even though I have 8gb of RAM... I can only use 4 of that... Which means, that when I need to have at least 2gbs, my system gets overloaded... So, now I'm in the process of trying to get Windows 10 64bit, like I should have... so I can use my full 8gb of RAM :/ Stupid Windows!!!

Some people sleep, and the other hours go to work From the Output Log: Game is running Windows 32 Bit Your statement that it is happening in Gilded Vale let me look at this again. You need to increase the memory avalialbe for programms. http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/86079-workarounds-and-troubleshooting-4-19-16/ The last block, 32bit Operating System Gilded Vale is the first map to use more than 2GB limit so its the first point where the game is crashing, and it has done so since ever. That makes sense. How is it that I can increase the memory available?? I mean, I don't have almost anything else running in the background. And did this not increase?? I didn't have any problems before...

I went and uninstalled and reinstalled the entire game. I couldn't load a single save from inside the Gilded Vale. I then loaded the save from BEFORE returning from the Gilded Vale, and it loaded. Then I returned to the Gilded Vale and went to the smithy, skipping the tree and the blonde guy. Bought stuff. Went to leave smithy. Crash. Now at 21 crash reports in total. WHAT IS GOING ON??? I should not have my computer crashing over and over and over again. ESPECIALLY when I didn't have any problems with the game before, at all, basically. I don't remember it crashing on me once, to be honest. And I've played Mass Effect, Shadowrun, and a fair number of other games in the intervening time, and they haven't crashed on me either, or, very, very infrequently to the point that I can't even really remember it. * Further update. I went and ran a memory test on my installed memory, to make sure that I don't have some sort of internal problem there, thinking it might have something to do with that. The test showed zero problems... I want to play this game, but I can't even leave the stupid smithy or recruit Eider... * I'm not playing the game any further, because I CAN'T. I tried to load my last save, which was right before recruiting Eider, and it crashed. I DID recruit him and tried to enter the nearby monastery... and it crashed. So, it SEEMS to be related to him. When it crashes, I see that my memory is pretty much maxed out. It's just crazy to me, that I played this before, without problems, and now I literally can't even transition a single area, practically. I've played Fallout: New Vegas, Skyrim, all the Mass Effects, and my computer was fine with those... yet I can't play Pillars of Eternity, which SHOULD have much lower specification requirements and that I formally could play without problem... So, HOPEFULLY someone helps me with this, because I've been posting since 7 in the morning, and no one has said anything in the past 5 hours... and YES, I've been "bumping" the post in the attempt to get it attention. But, I'm not going to write more today, because I'm sick of having it crash, and it is completely unacceptable that I can't progress beyond a completely necesarry central plot point.

I could be wrong, but it seems to be related to the tree. I have 2 saves that I made after speaking with the dwarf. Now, I can't load either of those... So, I'm going to try the save from BEFORE that... and that didn't work either. It seems like all of my saves are just getting corrupted, or something... :l

I have no idea what is going on. This is super annoying and frustrating. Quite frankly, for how much people love to complain about how buggys Obsidian games are, I've really never had an issue with any of their games, and have played nearly all of them. That being said, this is practically game-breaking, and this is after I don't know how many patches. I left the Gilded Vale Inn and decided to skip the tree and the blonde guy and just go back north to explore a little. Everything there went fine. Then, I saved, and decided to travel back to the Gilded Vale, thinking maybe that it had "fixed itself". Then, before loading me in the Gilded Vale, it crashed again... I have probably 10 crash reports on my computer now. HALP!

I tried that. I could at least leave the Gilded Vale Inn and talk to the dwarf. Then I recruited the blonde guy and when I went to level him up... crash again. I tried loading the save that I made before leveling him? Crash. New files: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B18FcuaRvyD2ZTZaQ0UtaGJ3UTg

I am having the game crash like CRAZY, as well. I didn't even have it crash like this when I first downloaded it, not long after release. It is, quite frankly, highly irritating. I have the Steam version, so I assume that it is updated to the most current build... And I'm not smart enough to find or make logs. The issues are almost identical. I go to level someone up or leave an area... and crash. Hopefully this works: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B18FcuaRvyD2ME1uTWplT0Z3UWc

I completely agree. I was one of the first backers of POE. I'm about to give it another shot. I played it on release, beat it, started another character and quickly lost interest. I don't need to play a game where everyone is miserable, everywhere sucks, and no matter what you do, it doesn't really get any better. No thanks. If the next POE is the same type of atmosphere and all the environments are dismal... won't buy it. That simple. I personally found the stats to be highly confusing, as well as some of the combat mechanics. Why can't we just use the same stats that everyone has been using since the beginning of time? Intelligence, Charisma, Wisdom, Dexterity, Strength and Endurance. I loved how Arcanum had Beauty and Luck. I understood why to put points in those things or not. I saw exactly what happened because of those choices. Simple. I'm not going to read through the game's feedback to figure out what damage types I "should" be using, or to figure out if I am or am not hitting, and am or am not doing damage. It should be relatively easy to understand and see. Did I make a fighter? Did I give him the stats that should make him effective? Is he using the right type of weapon? Done. No more analysis required. I never have played another RPG where I was unaware of whether what I was doing was effective or not, and couldn't intuitively sense that in the game and make the necessary adjustments to be more effective. I've read tons of threads about how to "best" build your character and frankly still don't understand. If I play this time and feel like my character is ineffective when they should be effective, I will stop playing and not come back. I shouldn't have to read the manual for hours just to build an effective character- not talking god-like, effective.

Arcanum has terrible art direction, terrible graphics, and mostly* terrible combat. On the other hand, it's outstanding in Crafting. Technomancy/gunslinging is crazy fun -- hunting for schematics and materials, developing your character + finding ways to "cheat" the system to be able to use them, then reaping the benefits in gameplay Quests. There are masses of them. It feels like they never run out. Yet there is none of "collect me 10 of this, 5 of that, 17 of the other." They all feel lively, unique, interesting, and individual. And there are always scads of ways to solve them -- by talking, sneaking, fighting, sending your minions after them, making story choices, and so on and so forth. Open-world structure. Once past the starting area obstacle, you can go anywhere and do anything, limited only by your capabilities. Yet there is an overall story arc and the whole thing hangs together. Other than Fallout 1, no other game I've played pulls it off as well. Originality and atmosphere in the setting. Steampunk has been done, but "fantasy setting with elves and dwarves and wizards and stuff undergoes an industrial revolution" hasn't, and the game explores this quirky premise in all kinds of interesting ways. What Arcanum does right, it does so right it hurts. The world deserves a true spiritual successor that builds on that, and avoids the mind-bendingly stupid flaws it has. If Obsidz decides to Kickstart this with Tim Cain at the helm, I at least am so in, and not just at the piddly bronze level the Pillars "BG spiritual successor" schtick did for me. *It is possible to have fun with combat in Arcanum, but only with specific builds, and only by specifically limiting yourself to not use the awful exploits or other flaws the system has. 100% in agreement with everthing you wrote. Additionally, I agree with most of the complaints other people had: graphics, combat, companions. The reality is, I almost didn't play Arcanum because of the graphics- I pretty much hate them. Just too cartoony, and generally not very appealing. That being said, I ultimately came to "forgive" them, because I accepted that I didn't care much for them, but they did what was necessary- let me understand the environment, and see things. While they aren't great, they aren't terrible either, once you get used to them- they do what is necessary. The combat? Trying on anything besides turn-based is practically an exercise in frustration. Unless you just have some hulking melee fighter, it is almost certainly going to result in failure. The combat is WAY too fast, becoming a chaos. With turn-based, it is a bit boring, but, ultimately, very manageable. The companions. Well, that was a missed opportunity. They all actually have some interesting storylines, but, the real problem is that they become basically mute after they have joined your party, with only a few points in the storyline that they say anything at all. So, WHY would I want Arcanum 2.0??? To keep all the good stuff, and fix the bad stuff. Imagine Arcanum with POE graphics... That would be tremendous. I love the POE graphics. The combat? Honestly, I think it would be best if it got converted solely to turn-based, like Fallout. Add a VATS-like system, and done! The companions? Make them interact more with each other, have more talkling points in the story- done. You can have companions that AREN'T talkative, but when they finally do have something to say, it is either really funny, really profound, or just straight crazy. That way, you don't need to write a mountain of dialogue for every companion, you just write it well. Also, I am EXTREMELY hesitantly happy that Obsidian does indeed have something else in the pipeline. That being said, I can't really celebrate until we have a better idea of what it is, because it could be another SouthPark game, for all we know. And, I do agreet that it is best to wait until POE is "done" before announcing it- best not to take aways from their first flagship IP.

When I say, "BG 3", I don't mean, "continue with your protagonist from BG 1-2". What I mean more, is FR, same/similar engine and game play. They could start off after the Throne of Bhaal storyline, with some new set of adventurers. It would be hard to make the storyline as epic, but the FR has tons of room for adventure. I'd really like something that leaves the Sword Coast, to be honest. I played the SWTOR game... and it just didn't do anything for me. The travel was irritating, I got tired of people endlessly running around me, didn't like the graphics, found it confusing, trying to figure out where to go and what to do, and it just didn't "feel" serious to me. What I really want is a game with the Imperial Knights http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Knight. Way cooler- grey Jedi warrior empire, essentially.Then, you could play Jedi, Sith, or an Imperial Knight. I want a game where those factions exist, and maybe you start in the Imperial Knights, but the Jedi and Sith start trying to "recruit" you as you gain power and fame.Once you get past a certain point, if you don't switch alliances, they begin to target you as an enemy Let Imperial Knights use light and dark side without penalties, while Jedi o Sith would have "stronger" respective powers like in Kotor. But, give the Knights some cool higher level abilities the others don't have. You could even have "fallen Jedi", which don't belong to any faction, but pursue their own interests. If Jedi encounter them, they try to arrest/detain them. Sith try to recruit or kill them. Imperial Knights don't care about them one way or another. In reference to Arcanum, I'm more just interested in seeing a game that allows you to gamble, steal, seduce people, build robots or golems, has tons of replayability and is steam/cyber punk. I really like Shadowrun, but it's incredibly linear. You can only go to a very small handful of locations. Arcanum had a huge world you could literally walk across, in its entirety. Or, you could take a ship or train. Or, teleport. It explored a LOT of interesting topics, from religion, philosophy and science. Hell, even psychology and political science. As an example of its replayability, I've played as a suave talker that convinced an "army" to follow him, and inventor that made money selling his inventions and excelled at melee combat, a sniper that built his own weapons, a mage which would teleport around the continent and disintegrate people, a mage which was essentially a "spell sword", a gambler that was a duellist with pistols, and an extremely smart half-ogre that was perfectly reasonable until someone made some sort of racial joke or insult, in which case he would give them one opportunity to apologize, or he would kill them. All of these builds played very differently, and I was able to make very different decisions throughout the game. Some had lots of money, others little. Some found out really interesting things because of their intelligence or charisma, others had no idea. One, I made into a prostitute. Besides maybe F: NV, I haven't played any other cRPG that permitted that degree of "role-playing".

World of Darkness setting? Sure, that would be great. What I would do, to be able to play a werewolf. In Vampire: Masquerade, you better believe that I played as the vampire class that was essentially a werewolf. How I would love to play an actual werewolf, taking down vampires and zombies and all that good stuff. No mention of Mistborn, which makes me sad. I had heard that there were talks between Obsidian and Brian Sanderson, but.... probably just another broken dream, like BG3, Kotor 3, Arcanum 2. Also, nothing particularly concrete regarding the more distant future, which makes me a bit sad. Oh well. Maybe I'll have the new ME next year, depending on the reviews. If they do what Bethesda did with Fallout 4, no thanks.

Yes. It is more this. Even with the "victory/'restor'" option end game, it still felt pretty hopeless to me. And, that is just the feeling I got off everything. The Gilded Vale, Defiance Bay, Twin Elms. No matter what I did or tried, I just couldn't seem to "fix" anything. The Gilded Vale remained hopeless. Defiance Bay Whatever the next area was called, it probably descended into further violence, because of the revelations I made. Twin Elms? Maybe they got stronger and so decided to attack their now weaker neighbors. Endgame? Doesn't really matter, because it just gave me an epilogue, but that wasn't particularly shining either. I'm just tired of "dark and gritty" TV, movies and games. I don't need something depressing in my free time, which I like to spend, enjoying myself. It just seems that there are less and less options in those mediums that don't fall into that category.

I've considered playing Alpha Protocol, but I don't like stealth games or shooters, so I don't think I would like it very much. I understand that Obsidian didn't want to depart too far into completely uncharted waters, but, I hope they won't be so timid in the future. To give an example, ME was a truly original IP. Whether you like it or not for it's various other features, it did create entirely new races, and entirely new concept for justifying the existence of the protagonist, and lots of new gameplay features and devices. It was also a huge commercial success. I just wish that someone else with substantial RPG credibility would do the same. Right now, there are really only 3 companies that in any way interest me with their games: Bioware, Obsidian, and Hare-Brained Schemes. Maybe inExile. Bioware is locked into their franchises now, and while I look forward to the new ME, I am not THAT excited about it. Hare-Brained hasn't said anything about new Shadowrun games (or, something similar), and so I am left without much to look forward to from them. So, that leaves Obsidian. Most of my favorite games were either made by Obsidian or by Obsidian employees: F: NV, Kotor 2, NWN 2, BG2, Arcanum. I've wanted BG3 for about... 15 years. I've hoped for Kotor 3 for... about 10 years. I've wished for Arcanum 2.0 about the same amount of time. Unfortunately, none of those things are going to happen. And, unfortunately, I don't know if I really want to see another POE, which appears to be their flagship IP now. I have no problem with the universe, and I don't really care overly about the "gameplay" (in the sense of combat- I'm fine with how it is, even if I don't like it as much as D&D). The problem I have is singular- the tone. I just don't wan't another "grimdark" game that takes itself way to seriously. People love to reference Planescape: Torment or F: NV. The thing is, both of those games were full of humor. Additionally, they had some genuinely pleasant or nice characters (both companions and regular NPCs). So, in my opinion, they really weren't "grimdark". They had mechanisms to genuinely reward "heroic" or "self-less" gameplay. They didn't always try to subvert that with cynicism. Sometimes there were unintended, negative consequences, but that was an outlier, not a rule. If the next installment of POE isn't so dark and serious, I'll buy it. But, if the reviewers, or the developers, say, "It's going to be JUST LIKE POE 1, but with improvements to __ (combat, spell-casting, x, y, and z)", I won't. Those things are all fine to me. Would I like to see certain changes? Sure. But, to me, that isn't the root of it. I want a good story, enjoyable, interesting companions, and lots of options in my RPG. The rest isn't that important. That's why I love Arcanum and Kotor 2- not because of the combat, but for the story and all the role-playing possibilities. For interesting companions (not so much in Arcanum, even).

I really don't agree about that definition of the FR at all. There is every alignment possible, and all are valid. Good isn't greater than evil, nor is neutrality- that's the whole point. Thay is full of "evil". You aren't going to find any paladins of Helm or Ilmater there. Amn isn't really a "good-aligned" nation. It is, by and large, neutral. The Cowled Wizards don't care if you are casting death magic or resurrecting your slain friend, you must follow the rules and have a permit to cast magic. There is legal slavery. There is a temple to Tempus right next to the temple of Helm. The home of the elves? That would probably be defined as "lawful good". So, those are three different "nations" with very different definitions of "good and evil". Just like you can go to Saudia Arabia, the Netherlands, and China. These countries all have very different concepts of what is good, and how government should work. Additionally, I would say it isn't "cliched". It's "traditional". LotR is pretty much what started it all and FR followed. If you ask almost anyone that is into the fantasy genre what go them hooked, they will probably answer with one of three things: LotR, Forgotten Realms, or Conan. For me, I actually DON'T LIKE LotR. I find it extremely boring. I love the FR. I love Conan. (this is talking about the "older generations"- I'm sure that people now might say GoT, Harry Potter, Mistborn, etc) If anything, FR is more like LotR than anything else. In reality, FR is much more diverse. It doesn't suppose that all men are naturally aligned, nor elves or dwarves. They aren't nearly as homogeneous in the FR. Do most people that live in the country prefer certain things that people in the city don't? That doesn't make either of their behaviors or preferences "cliched". It just means that that is representative of those groups. To have "traditional" "high fantasy" isn't cliched. It's just to continue with something already established. I would LOVE to see something genuinely new. POE is in the lines of Shadowrun and Arcanum. All of them have dwarves, elves, orcs, etc. All of them basically interpret them the same, with a little bit of variation. I would LOVE to see something that actually departs from that, which is genuinely original. None of those races, or obvious copies of them. Come up with a new "monster manual". I really want: Shadowrun fights Arcanum. Give me conflicts between magic and technology. Give me elemental races that naturally hate technology. Give me cyborgs and androids that want to crush those irrational and unpredictable elements of nature. Give me magical races that want to secretly or openly use their abilities but can't (the equivalent of shapeshifters, vampires, werewolves, golems, etc). Golem vs android, fight! One is a magical, "unliving" (in the sense of breathing, relying on sex for procreation) race, and the other is a completely artificial lifeform that is made of technology. Maybe some strange "niche shadow culture" of golem/android mixes. Golems or androids that began experimenting with crossing their construction between magical and technological means. Humans that favor magic for religious reasons. Humans that fear/hate both, because they are threatening with their powers. No "world saving", but "power shifting". Magical beings gain more freedom in society, technological races exert more control, etc, etc. If anything, POE is very unoriginal. Still using the very same races from LotR and FR. Sure, it came up with a new "magical system". Have you read Brian Sanderson? Almost every single book he writes has a different, and interesting, "magical system". Still waiting on the Mistborn games... POE is just a low magic, moderately steampunk setting with a new magical system that draws heavy influence from FR.

Yeah, some other people have hit on the same points as me- it's more, the sense of not really having made much of a positive impact. Not much humor. Again, referencing back to my time in the military, almost 10 years, 4 of which were deployed. I don't care how tense things are, how bad things get, how much violence there is, people always try to find a way to enjoy themselves, to laugh, to make jokes. Those are basic COPING mechanisms. If you can't find a way to enjoy yourself or to "lighten the mood", ESPECIALLY in difficult times, you'll drown in despair. Think of the traditional symbol for theater: a smiling/laughing face and a crying/sad face. There is tragedy, but there is also always comedy. I will freely admit, that I didn't have any of the "funny" NPCs in my party (the scholar, druid, or fighter). The chanter just seemed useless to me, and frankly kind of irritated me, as did the druid. So, as a result, literally never had them with me. I sent them on all sorts of stronghold quests. Eider, I just didn't see a need for. I played as a paladin, and took Peregrina, and so felt like we did a good enough job on the front line without the justification for yet another "fighter-type". So, I had the crazy priest (who I continuously wondered if I would have to kill because he was going to turn on me and attack me, like he loved to threaten), the too-serious paladin, my emo mage, and my mopey cipher (who I tried to avoid talking to). So, as a result, maybe that made the game seem even more oppressive than it already was, because I literally didn't have any particularly positive character in my party. I was always trying to "manage" them, so they wouldn't fall apart on me. But, that goes back to the writers. I feel they did a pretty terrible job with the NPCs. Did they have interesting stories? Sure. But, did I actually like or enjoy any of them? No, not really. I felt like I was running around with a bunch of basket-cases. Literally, Peregrina and I were the only definitively sane ones in the bunch. And, that was kinda depressing. Again, my other options? A crude, vulgar, violent druid? A bookish scholar that never shuts up and is loud? I don't know enough about the ranger or Eider to talk about them, though I have heard people consistently say that they were the "most likable". So, maybe I screwed up in not taking them. But, to be frank, I didn't like pretext for the ranger, that I would then need to search out someone I had literally zero interest in finding, and Eider simply wasn't necessary for me. I just feel like there was much too much emphasis on "a serious, deep, morally ambiguous" story. I feel like there should have been more humor, more options to really "do good things" (and be rewarded for that).

If you're talking about Blood Legacy then that's not true. If you're talking about Blood Legacy then that's not true. Yeah, as in Blood Legacy and Defiance Bay missions (there is several) that include rescuing a person there is possibility to rescue them. Also in White March you are able to rescue people from the burning building, you also can rescue the man in Raedric's Keep, child, treasure hunters and spy in Twin Elms. I can't think any other quests where you go to rescue someone and I can't think single quest where there isn't option to rescue individual that you go to rescue. Well, then, I guess I just didn't do it right, because, I literally rushed in, didn't rest, burned through a ton of potions, and was really limping along when I finally got to the "final segment". And, when I played it, it provided me with no means to be successful (or, at least, that was the end result). I referenced the Defiance Bay mission (with the little girl, though maybe there were others) as well. I'm simply stating that it really didn't do a good job of "supporting" a "heroic" gameplay approach. I played as a paladin (the judicious, negotiator ones), and while I understand that the "lore" is different, I played him as the type that is trying to reduce bloodshed, bring justice, and help those that he can. In the end, I didn't really feel like I had done a very satisfying job of that. In that one specific area in Defiance Bay, I "returned things that had been stolen". Ok, great, except for the whole fact that... Without going into great detail, in the endgame, I chose the option that "restored things to how they were" or "were supposed to be". So, I did the "good thing". That being said, the game ends immediately after that. And even the epilogue that they gave, pretty much cheapened my accomplishment. I wasn't expecting a "now everything is supercalifragilistic", but, I was hoping for a little more than, "and problems continue, with this decision causing more confusion and violence though there is now a little more hope and happiness". At least, that is what I remember the epilogue saying. Again, speaking from a personal perspective, I couldn't be satisfied playing POE. It didn't feel like I was ever really helping anyone or accomplishing anything lasting that was good.

I fully grant it isn't at the Game of Thrones level of gratuity, where there is violence and rape every 10 minutes. That being said, I stopped reading Game of Thrones after book 3 or 4, because that is really what it amounts to. There are tons of RR Martin memes which make fun of how it is that he loves to kill and torture everyone, especially the "likable characters". I got sick of having to follow 15 characters, some of which weren't even presented in the previous book, only to have 3 others killed off and 3 new ones introduced. That's just it, for me. I don't want a depressing game. I want a game where if I want to play a hero, which I do in my RPGs, that I can do so and actually feel like it's worthwhile. I don't want to try to rescue and help people, only to have the game almost endlessly present me with scenarios where I actually CAN'T accomplish that. I'm not going to give spoilers, but, very early on, you had the ability to help someone avoid a very sad, tragic outcome- except, the game made it clear to you that you actually weren't doing anything. In fact, you would have to lie to that person, to make them "feel better". Then there was a rescue mission- where, as far as I am aware, there is literally no way to rescue that individual, no matter how quickly you act, that you don't rest a single time, and that you have plenty of "speaking ability" to try to sway people's decisions (or, magic, to do so). You rescue some little girl, only to find out that she is shell-shocked, had to do and experience all sorts of vile things, and she is probably going to be permanently damaged goods. Man, I'm so happy I got to her in time... There were plenty of other quests very similar to that, where there really was no "happy ending" option. I can appreciate doing that occasionally, that is "courageous" for the writers to do. That being said, when it is continous, and there really is no "best option", that just sucks. Why do I want to "do good", if it really turns out that does little? I got it, that they subject matter they were dealing with for this installment was "heavy" and that because of the recently transpired events, it was "tense" and "violent". That being said, I'm definitely not buying POE 2 (or whatever they call it) until I know more about the setting. I didn't play the Witcher for 2 reasons: I don't feel like going through a click-fest and trying to learn "combinations" like in Mortal Combat or a Capcom game, and I don't have any desire to play a game that is depressing. I didn't play DA2, because, frankly, DA1 didn't impress me and it looked like they just reduced DA2 to a "hack'n'slash", which doesn't appeal to me in any way. I play only 1 type of game: RPGs. And, when I play RPGs, I want to help people and "make the world/city/region better". If POE2 is just more, "grimdark (light)", no thanks. If it has dark elements, light elements, and walks that nice middle ground? Sure thing, boss. Incentivize me to play. Give me a good/great story, with a variety of options to arrive at the end. POE did all of that, except, for me, it is too dark, and doesn't incentivize me to play. So, I played through it 1 time, and part of another, and got bored. Now, I'm not inclined to buy the next title, without knowing more about the atmosphere and tone. To put this in perspective, since leaving POE, I have replayed: BG1 (3 times), BG2 (almost 2x), Arcanum (1.5x), ME 1-3 (1x), F:NV (1x), Shadowrun (4x), KOTOR 2 (1x), Neverwinter Nights 2 (2x). The next Shadowrun that comes out? I'll buy it for sure. The next ME? Maybe. The new Fallout? Maybe- it was made by Bethesda.

I never, ever, said the word "grimdark". In fact, I hate that term, because it isn't even a real word. I said, literally, "dark and gritty". I'm going to post the antonyms for dark, so maybe you can better understand what I mean: Antonyms 1. lighted. 2. bright. 8. cheerful. 9. pleasant. 12. clear. For POE to NOT be a "dark" setting, it would have to have lighted, bright, cheerful, or pleasant settings. So, my challenge to you, is to name me those settings in POE? I don't remember ANY. Or, I can go to Wikipedia, for their definition of "dark fantasy", which is what POE is. "Dark fantasy is a subgenre of fantasy which can refer to literary, artistic, and cinematic works that incorporates darker and frightening themes of fantasy. It also often combines fantasy with elements of horror. The term can be used broadly to refer to fantastical works that have a dark, gloomy atmosphere or a sense of horror and dread.[1]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_fantasy There is quite a lot of that in POE. Rulers randomly killing large numbers of their subjects and displaying them to the public to cow the population. Secret groups kidnapping, torturing and murdering innocent people. Schizophrenic people because they have __ (not explaining because of spoilers). Incest. People killing their children. Entire districts getting eaten by undead. People locked underground, starving to death, and commiting cannabalism. Ritual human sacrifice. Fratricide. I could keep going. That all sounds pretty dark to me. There are plenty of horrific elements there. All of these points are 100% objective. If you have a color palate, and you only use cool or dark colors, it is a dark painting. If all of your settings, or even, over 50% of them, are not cheerful, pleasant, or bright, that makes it a dark setting. That isn't opinion, that is fact. Let's go to the 2nd word I used, "gritty". Word Origin and History for gritty adj. 1590s, from grit + -y (2). In sense of "unpleasant" (of literature, etc.), from 1882, in reference to the sensation of eating gritty bread. Related: Grittily ; grittiness. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gritty realistic, hard-hitting, unsentimental, unromantic http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gritty That is what POE is. It is unpleasantly unsentimental or unromantic to ME. Obviously, that isn't the case for lots of other people. I've been to both Iraq and Afghanistan. I've seen some pretty "dark" stuff in real life. That being said, not everything is oppressive evil. I used the Netherlands and Iraq as 2 contrasting points of reference. That being said, you CAN find people that are pleasant and happy, even in Iraq. You CAN find places that are actually beautiful and peaceful, even there. Very rarely do you encounter places where almost everything is "gloom and doom". In POE, that is how I perceived it. Name me one part of the game that has children playing. Some musician playing a beautiful song. Someone walking around, trying to spread "the good news" (not talking about Jesus, but rather, that things are going to improve, that people need to work together, that there is hope in the future). Even if you CAN identify some of these individual items for me, they are, by and large, in the overwhelming minority of things represented in the game. Reward isn't limited to material goods. I said as much in what I already wrote. Change ambient sounds to happier, more light hearted things. Clean up streets. Have NPCs actually say thank you. Put more NPCs out. Have a celebration. These things don't happen, therefore I'm not rewarded. People really do these things, when you help them. This isn't an "unrealistic" expectation or request.

Giving this a bump, since more time has gone by. I would love to hear the feedback from new or returning players.

I am pretty much in complete agreement. I mentioned how it was just "too serious" in a thread devoted to that, and even had a poll, to see if I was just crazy. I appears that I am, indeed, and in the minority (with you as well). Most people didn't think it was "serious enough" or it was "just right". No kidding- check it out. http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/80064-dark-and-gritty-fantasy-settings/ That boggles my mind. There is literally almost nothing light-hearted in the entire game. Not the quests, not the NPCs, not the environments- almost everything is tense, or brooding, or grey. BG always managed to balance it. There were certainly dark, and forboding areas. Going into the vampire lairs was always terrifying, because level drain is no joke, and they were always full of undead and just scary stuff. But, there were also areas where you could go that were cheerful, and had bright colors and things were "good" there. I'm not motivated to replay POE because it is just kinda depressing. Why do I want to save people, when I don't really get rewarded for that? There were sequences in BG where people erected statues of you, or held ceremonies, or gave you particularly powerful or useful treasures. If you cleared an area of "evil", it might literally get a "makeover". Meaning, it would get brighter colors. More people would be in the streets. The ambient sounds would change. You could literally SEE the difference. I really don't recall that ever happening in POE. In POE, you can remove a certain despot, and, what happens? You literally see no difference to anything. Nothing improves. It's just bs when people say that there is no such thing as "good and evil" and everything is just kinda grey. Go to the Netherlands, and tell me what your general impression is. It's got great, friendly people. It's a fun place, where you can find lots of different things to do. Then, go to Iraq or Syria. Tell me how that is? Everyone is tense, and frightened, afraid they might not live another day. People get tortured to death in public areas on a routine basis. That is a good approximation of what "good" and "evil" are. Happiness versus misery. Freedom versus oppression. In POE, it is just a misery and oppression fest.

Totally disagree. Fallout: NV, as a great example. Not original IP, but FULL of different role-playing options (meaning, solutions to quests, and means to build unique characters that were truly distinct from others). Someone mentioned the Shadowrun series. I think that it offers many more role-playing options, and even that the combat is better. I haven't played the Witcher 3, but I have heard it has an amazing story and character interaction, and that it really does play very differently based off of the decisions you make in game.

Ok, thanks for the feedback. I'm going to let some more people put their input into the poll, to see the results after some more votes. But, it looks like the consensus is that it has improved, but not drastically.

I'm going to start this off with, I backed and played POE almost immediately after it's release. To be honest, I didn't really enjoy it that much. I'm not going to go into all the details, but it ranged from the NPCs to how it was fairly linear and that I didn't really see that much reactivity differences between when I played as a Paladin (and beat the game) and when I tried playing as a Cipher (and only got up to the 2nd Chapter). So, my question is this. For those people that HAVE played it at release and have since played it with 2.0, is it significantly enough improved that it might just change my mind? Do you find the current iteration to be vastly superior to the release version? Or, do you think that the differences probably wouldn't convince someone that it is much improved game? So, poll, as well.

Yes, that is it exactly. Crucis nailed it. I don't even know what "grimdark" is. What I do know, is that there is literally almost nothing in the entire setting or storyline of POE which is anything except grey or "heavy". First location. You arrive, find a tree with dozens/hundreds of people hanging from it. You are threatened to be put on it. There are lots of people threatening to kill each other and betraying each other in that first location. There is a quest where someone is looking for hope, and you deliver false hope- that is the best case scenario. 2nd location. You might not FEEL it (because of bad writing and scripting), but entire city is on verge of chaos. You CAN'T actually prevent this, no matter what you do. You face a situation where you are forced to kill a bunch of mentally or physically handicapped individuals (without going into details). 3rd location (where you find Grieving Mother). People assassinating and torturing dozens to hundreds of people. People mind-controlling people and forcing them to commit vile acts. Rape, incest. 4th location (near to end). People all fighting amongst each other, trying to even get you to kill children. A location where people go to willingly get tortured and killed. A population planning for war. No one is friendly (that I remember), everyone either distrusts or hates you, or wants to use you. Final location. Can't say much, other than to say, it was nothing but negative. There was no "point of light" in any of it. Depending on your decisions, yes, that could, "make things better". But, you don't actually get to see any of that happen. You just get some cut-screen which refers to it, and that is all. In Baldur's Gate, KOTOR, Arcanum, the entire setting wasn't dark. There were episodes of darkness, and there were some "dark" events, but they weren't uniformly dark. In BG, once you cleared out the evil, people thanked you. There were ceremonies, sometimes they erected statues to you. Some areas literally became "lighter". There were more people in the streets, or you could do things you couldn't do before. There were times when you could "redeem" people, so they came to appreciate bad things that had happened, and ended up at peace. You could free people from slavers. You could cure people of diseases. In KOTOR, it is set in a time of war, or just after. Sure, there are some unhappy areas, but you can also find beautiful ones that are largely at peace. When you do enough "light side" stuff, you can see certain things improve. Certain rulers live, others die. People are acknowledged to be happier or not. In Arcanum, almost everyone is oblivious of the impending threat. Life is "business as usual" almost everywhere. There really aren't too many dark things- some necromancy. Mistreating "inferior races". Tension in between certain nations and races. It isn't even remotely a dark setting. In POE, what "positive NPCs" are there? Eder and Kana? They are probably the only ones that I can think of, and quite frankly, I don't think either is really "positive". To me, they are just "normal", with occasionally optimistic or "light" contributions to make in conversation. Palegina (or, however it is spelled)? Not particularly negative, not particularly positive. A "realist", "pragmatist", a bit standoffish and business-like and cold. The ranger? Pretty neutral. The druid? A crude, violent pervert. Durance? A crazy psychotic. Grieving Mother? Depressing, spacey, morose. Aloth? Kinda jokey, more or less nuetral, sort of "goodish".

I'm really going to be interested to see how many people say, "too light", since that is utterly incomprehensible to me. I can literally not think of any particular moment in the game, where I felt like, "Wow! I'm totally a hero!", or, "Man, that sure is beautiful and nice." I mean, there were heroic acts (saving people from zombies, removing a certain despotic ruler), but I just never felt like they were really recognized in game in any concrete way, and there was little to make them any more than just a brief moment in the game play. Meaning, they didn't FEEL rewarding.