Concerned Reader

This is starting to become a recurring joke on this forum, as far as I can tell, so bear with me as I try and sort this out so we can have a meaningful discussion that the developers can actually utilize to develop a great story. Rules of this thread: This is not a thread to discuss whether or not GLBT topics should be included in the game. This is not a thread to debate whether or not GLBT people are worth the effort to include in the game. This is a thread specifically for the topics listed in the title. If you want to discuss the inclusion or utilization of another people group, make a new thread for it. Do not post with the express intent to cause an inflamatory response. (Trolling) If you see a post that you disagree with, formulate an articulate arguement as to why. If you can't, then don't post it. (Hint: one line is probably not an articulate argument.) The purpose of this thread is to discuss that, in the event that Obsidian includes GLBT characters or themes within their game, how would you like them to be handled? What are common pitfalls that you have seen in other games? What should they avoid? What would you like them to touch on? ________________ And for the love of God, if you see a post that is an obvious troll attempt, ignore it and report it.

Because I'm going to narrow down the discussion to a different topic. Contrary to popular belief, there is more to talk about with reguards to sexuality other than "should it be included."

I'm going to go ahead and make a new thread, since we seem to have gotten laregly off topic within this one. Furthur discussion within this thread should refer back to the OP and discuss the themes presented by that post.

Realistically, while lesbians and gay men can be included without their sexuality being their central theme, much like it was done in New Vegas, this is a fantasy setting. I somehow doubt there's operations to change one's hormones and appearance to make them more feminine or masculine. I mean let's get real here. Transgender operations haven't been around that long. Asking for transgender representation in a fantasy setting where guns are -just- beginning to be discovered? Very out of place. Go back a few posts and check that link to the Native American concept of Two Spirited People. It is entirely possible for a culture to acknowledge that transgenderism exists without having the medicinal technology to perform sex alteration surgery. Transgenderism is not just about genitals, though that's what most people seem to get hung up on. It's a deeper rooted issue of self identity.

Just wanted to first chime in to say that it isn't a lifestyle choice, but rather an identity that you're born with. Some people are born a specific race, some people are born with a different brain structure (such as autism or ADHD), some are born with same sex attraction, some with opposite sex attraction, some are born intersex, some are born male, some are born female, and some are born transgender (which can more or less be thought of as an intersex condition of the brain). These are all different aspects of a self identity, and they're all things that the relative people groups, no matter how small, identify with and would like to see acknowledged within the greater aspects of culture. Is this actually feasably possible? Not really. But that doesn't mean you should shut down the threads that discuss it. Second of all, this game is crowd funded. The money will be in their hands immediately. They aren't going to have to pay back a publisher. They aren't going to have to chip in part of profits to the publisher (Though I'm sure that GOG and Steam will take a small percentage). I could be wrong in this, but at the end of development, if they budgeted correctly, they shouldn't be in as big of a monetary hole as they would if they worked through a publisher without crowdsourcing. So yes, they can take risks. They don't have a publisher hounding them to make a "marketable" product. They can tell the story that they want to and they can include any themes that they want to. It's the same way with independant movies such as Paranorman or District 9. They were able to tackle subjects that would probably have been shot down immediately by a producer as being "too big a risk" for the greater market.

Can we drop the Political Correctness argument? I don't want different people groups thrown in just to fill up some PC meter, and I'm pretty sure that nobody else does either. What I think we need to actually discuss in these threads isn't whether or not LGBT/whatever should be included in the game, but rather how they should be included in the game. Ultimately it will be up to Obsidian if they include these themes or not. So all this pointless bickering and argument is not doing any good. I want Obsidian, as the developer of the game, to tell the story that they want to. I also want it to be a good story, so if they do decide to include transgender characters, they should have an idea of what pitfalls to avoid. That's what we should be discussing. That's what could actually help the developers.

So basically the only dialog choice they need to include is to have characters from a culture of Transgender understanding ask "So what's your prefered pronoun?" and then adjust the pronouns that NPC uses accordingly. Of course it would be written from the perspective of the culture. Native Americans have had an understanding of transgenderism for a while. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit

If they can get the narrator from Bastion to do it I don't know if I'd be mad that they pandered, or happy because it's ****ing Logan Cunningham's amazing voice.

I tend to like the idea of inteligent dragons who have their own motivations and cultural significance. An example of this being done well would be the Temeraire series by Naomi Novik.

Sure, why not. I don't mind different cultures within the game viewing sexuality differently. It'd be a realistic way to approach it.

Okay, here is what I want everyone to do. Completely ignore Nigro. When he posts something like this that is obviously inflamatory, just click that little report button under his post.

Unless his wife is a dude. Psyche! I would be entirely okay with them including a transgender character that isn't just the butt of a joke. That would be a huge step forwards in Transgender awareness.

Way to completely not read any of the other posts in the thread. We're not telling the developers which characters should be gay, how they should interact with the PC, nor how many gay characters there needs to be. All we're saying is that they should include GLBT people in their thought process for character and NPC design. You keep on using the word pandering. I do not think it means what you think it means.

The problem with this is that it's really really hard to actually do. If you walk into a bar and the bartender mentions that his wife runs the Inn next door, WELP he just revealed his sexuality. It would actually be even more creativily stifling than any other option.

Pandering arbitrarily to peoples' real life issues does not make for more interesting gameplay. It makes for juvenile embarrassment. When I'm playing a videogame and it clumsily and/or blatantly attempts to tackle contemporary social issues I feel stupid, patronized and embarrassed. As has been said, FO:NV did it right. It was subtle and did not present itself as anything extraordinary. And that was perfectly fine. As was the inclusion of a strictly gay character in Mass Effect 3. It wasn't flaunted. It wasn't their sole defining characteristic. It was just a realistic part of who they were. And that's all that's really needed. It acknowledges that, yes, gay people do exist. What do you know? They're just like everybody else in the world.

Nice logical fallacy there. How do you know that they aren't? I know that I am. I go to a Lutheran University, and within a months time I'll be delivering a speech on GLBT awareness. Asking for realistic inclusion within the media is also asking for equality. It's the same fight in different theaters of war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_among_LGBT_youth Around 30-40% of LGBT youth have attempted suicide. Often times because they feel rejected by their parents, by their school, by their friends, and by society. A lot of the time, a young gay kid may not even know that there are others out there like him. He may think he's all alone, that he's some horrible deviation from the cultural norm and that there is no place for him in the world. You know why that is? Because nobody talks about LGBT people. There is no exposure, there is no communication. 5-10% of the population is GLBT. Walking around a Texas Highschool, you'd think it was 0.5%. In a campus of 2300 people, that's 115-230 people who are surpressing an integral part of their self identity. So yes, GLBT people are going to petition for inclusion in things. It is not asking for special treatment. It is asking to be acknowledged. To have someone, somewhere, say "yes, you do exist, and that's fine." And that can save lives.